Perrie Juran Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Pussycat Catnap wrote: SL Shape makers... suck... There's really no other excuse. SL users have been buying a 'bill of goods' from people with the art and anatomy skills of a 5 year old. Most of the issues go away with a very simple proportion test: - Make your armspan as wide as you are tall - Made the middle of your total height your crotch - make yourself about 7 heads tall Make your hands about as big as your chin to forehead Make your feet when barefoot as big as your forearm Easy was to do this? Take a prim and wear it on avatar center and move it to your crotch - right in the middle of your special spot... Stretch it to the top of your head OR the base of your feet. Now adjust your height until you fit perfectly inside an that prim is still attached and located in the same spot. Get in a T-Pose, and your fingers should touch the edges on the sides, or your arms are too short / hands too small. - ANYONE can figure out this basic stuff. But I get that not everyone is an artist. HOWEVER, if you're going to charge people money for a shape you make, you had better sell them something worth buying, and have a duty to your customer to do these tests and corrections for them... Now if you want a more detailed guide to getting all the details right, I've got on on my blog linked in my sig... =There is no excuse for what we see in SL... "SL Shape makers... suck..." That is all a matter of your personal opinion. They make shapes as they perceive the shapes look good and as they perceive there is a market for them. Your dislike of disproportionate shapes is YOUR dislike and opinion. And while you are entitled to your opinion and you are entitled to dislike these shapes, it is still nothing more or less than your opinion and dislike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 since proportions started to become a big deal a few years back..people sure have gotten very **a>n>a>l about other peoples avatars.. as if they all came from art camp right to SL.. people need to get a grip on themselves and let loose a little on the people that are on their screen.. i'm sure they didn't come here to bother you on purpose.. it's one thing to be helpful if they want it..it's another to be an azzhat if they don't.. this is the age of perscriptions drugs..i'm sure there is a pill for this somewhere.. :matte-motes-nerdy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keriwena Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Ceka Cianci wrote: i'm sure they didn't come here to bother you on purpose.. Don't get out much, do you? :smileywink: Indeed, it is likely that the proportion of mis-proportioned avatars in SL will be in direct proportion to the requests for proper proportions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Studio09 Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 The proportions given are for an average shape. Not all people have that average shape. For example at 5'8" my wingspan is shorter than my height, mainly due to my slightly narrow shoulders and long legs. My ex's wingspan was longer than his height. I used to joke that I was a T-rex and he was a knuckle-dragger. Although he was 2 inches taller than me the inseam on my levi's was 2 inches longer than his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeline Blackbart Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Ceka Cianci wrote: since proportions started to become a big deal a few years back..people sure have gotten very **a>n>a>l about other peoples avatars.. as if they all came from art camp right to SL.. people need to get a grip on themselves and let loose a little on the people that are on their screen.. i'm sure they didn't come here to bother you on purpose.. it's one thing to be helpful if they want it..it's another to be an azzhat if they don't.. this is the age of perscriptions drugs..i'm sure there is a pill for this somewhere.. :matte-motes-nerdy: It's true that going out of your way to point out that someones avatar is misprportioned is more then a little jerky. It's also though valid that someone who is selling shapes should perhaps knwo something about actualy proportions if they plan on selling it as they are billing them selves as at least slightly "an expert" over someone else. Tot he person who meantion proptions differ. This is true but often the proportions were seeing on SL are so wildly out of the normal realm of variation as to be almost comical and ridiculous. Unless of course they were going for a more artistic look I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Keriwena wrote: Ceka Cianci wrote: i'm sure they didn't come here to bother you on purpose.. Don't get out much, do you? :smileywink: Indeed, it is likely that the proportion of mis-proportioned avatars in SL will be in direct proportion to the requests for proper proportions. there are countless threads on this subject.. they all have helpful information in them..but at the same time there is always the war of large and small.. some feel it's a freebie to get harsh and insulting as if everyone came here just to have the perfect Azz.. this isn't people bashing on LL for users makig their avatars the way they do.. it's users bashing on users.. it's one thing to offer helpful advice..that's being helpful..not everyone is years old here or here for the vanity.. it's another to be insulting as if people are purely stupid or wrong.. it wasn't right when the tall bashing the small was going on and it's not right the other way around either.. i don't need to get out or stay in to identify with users bashing users.. maybe you do but i don't.. as it's been said many times before.. when they say your world your imagination..they were saying it to everyone..not just the few.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Madeline Blackbart wrote: Ceka Cianci wrote: since proportions started to become a big deal a few years back..people sure have gotten very **a>n>a>l about other peoples avatars.. as if they all came from art camp right to SL.. people need to get a grip on themselves and let loose a little on the people that are on their screen.. i'm sure they didn't come here to bother you on purpose.. it's one thing to be helpful if they want it..it's another to be an azzhat if they don't.. this is the age of perscriptions drugs..i'm sure there is a pill for this somewhere.. :matte-motes-nerdy: It's true that going out of your way to point out that someones avatar is misprportioned is more then a little jerky. It's also though valid that someone who is selling shapes should perhaps knwo something about actualy proportions if they plan on selling it as they are billing them selves as at least slightly "an expert" over someone else. Tot he person who meantion proptions differ. This is true but often the proportions were seeing on SL are so wildly out of the normal realm of variation as to be almost comical and ridiculous. Unless of course they were going for a more artistic look I suppose. that's really an opinion about experience more than anything.. people should learn how to texture clothes and a lot of other things as well..but they have to start somewhere.. SL is not the landing point for the talented..it's a starting point for many.. just like a lot of creators in sl.. they got their experience here or had some when they got here.. it's one thing to be informative..which a lot of people are.. penny's page and Cat's pages i give to people that are looking for proper proportions all the time.. i've used them myself a lot of times.. they are great rescources.. there is so much more helpful information today than years ago... we can almost just drop a link and move on nowadays and they will have about all they will need.. it's another thing when someone comes here and learned here and got good skills then turns around deciding it's not ok for others to be on the learning level here..but to know everything already right out of the shoot.. that is how these threads look to people coming to SL.. people come here to the forums for helpful information and have to sift through the politics and waring opinions like there was an election going on.. there is no left or right here..as much as people want to this world to be that...there just isn't.. it's a world of imagination..and the best part is the ride and the experience to getting somewhere..not the instant trips to the end of it..where some older users want everyone to be.. there is nothing wrong with giving a boost if they want it.. there is something wrong with saying..detour..you have to go this way..or you're an idiot.. this is an imaginary world before it is anything else.. not the real world.. sometimes being able to break away from RL rules is it's advantage to some.. i guess people are free to be insulting if they want.. and people are free to react to it.. would be nice if it wasn't thread after thread and more in one spot though..hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiritSparrow Skydancer Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Vanessa Hallison wrote: Here are my top 5 physical pet peeves in Second Life.... 1. People with tiny heads 2. Extremely short arms..... 3. Teeny tiny feet 4. Abnormally broad shoulders 5. Gigantic hips... (I think this might be a trend among the "Cool cats' of Second Life, but I'm not so sure) Can anyone explain to me why a vast majority of Second Life avatars are completely disproportionate? I understand that it's a virtual world and people can look however they want to look... but I just don't understand how looking like an alien looks better than just being proportionate. "sigh" If people didnt do this whatever would you complain about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marianne Little Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 I like to wear high heels in SL because it hurts so awfully in RL. In my job, I have to wear flats with thick soles and at home I have two kids to run after. I always wondered how the "Yummy mummys" manage to pick up their kids (RL) in high heeled boots. In SL, it is no pain, can run, fly, swim, fight in superhigh heels. But I stop at wearing high heels in water. That is what I have gorgeous mesh feet for. Both flat ones and medium height. I'm not annoyed when I see those who use superhigh heels in the pool and on the beach. Doesn't bother me.... I like how my avatar looks, I hope they like their avatar. Coby Foden wrote: Vanessa Hallison wrote: Here are my top 5 physical pet peeves in Second Life.... 1. People with tiny heads 2. Extremely short arms..... 3. Teeny tiny feet 4. Abnormally broad shoulders 5. Gigantic hips... (I think this might be a trend among the "Cool cats' of Second Life, but I'm not so sure) I would add there: 6. Extremely long legs plus extremely high heeled shoes. :smileysurprised: :smileyfrustrated: Starts to resemble a grasshopper. :smileytongue: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conifer Dada Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 If people want to have really oddly proportioned avatars, it's up to them, of course. But like others have said here, one suspects that a lot of the badly shaped avatars are made by people who have tried but failed to make an attractive shape, a bit like with a bad drawing of something. There was a problem a few years ago of lots of people making their avatars as tall as possible, with the unfortunate effect that people with normal sized ones were mistaken for being child avatars. That's not quite so bad now, I don't think. Other people might deliberately set out to have a badly shaped avatar - especially if it's an alt and they're out for a bit of silliness! I think I might have done that briefly myself - never with 'me' but with an alt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Perrie Juran wrote: Pussycat Catnap wrote: SL Shape makers... suck... There's really no other excuse. SL users have been buying a 'bill of goods' from people with the art and anatomy skills of a 5 year old. HOWEVER, if you're going to charge people money for a shape you make, you had better sell them something worth buying, and have a duty to your customer to do these tests and corrections for them... =There is no excuse for what we see in SL... "SL Shape makers... suck..." That is all a matter of your personal opinion. They make shapes as they perceive the shapes look good and as they perceive there is a market for them. Your dislike of disproportionate shapes is YOUR dislike and opinion. And while you are entitled to your opinion and you are entitled to dislike these shapes, it is still nothing more or less than your opinion and dislike. No its anatomical fact. Science is not opinion. As someone noted up thread there are slight variations that can occur, but these are much smaller than they can appear. Often by less than an inch or two - which is so outside the norm of anatomy that it can be visually stunning when seen in real life. There's also a difference between "I'm new and just made a shape to have fun" and "I'm charging people 800L a pop for this junk." If its just your shape to be you, that's your business. But if you put a price tag on it, you're going to get called out for doing bad work if that's what you're selling. Now there's also "knowing the science, I then went and made it different in these key areas for effect." - And that third one, people who PURPOSEFULLY went off proportion for effect? That's extremely rare. The difference between "suck at making shapes" and "went off proportion for effect" is the difference between a 5-year old's drawing and a Picasso... Very few Picasso's on the grid... The person I have the least sympathy for is the one who was contracted by the lindens to make all our new starter shapes in 2010 or so... that person had a DUTY to the entire grid to do good work, and those shapes are some of the worst on the grid... And getting it right... is so trivially easy... that they had no excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Pussycat Catnap wrote: No its anatomical fact. Science is not opinion. As someone noted up thread there are slight variations that can occur, but these are much smaller than they can appear. Often by less than an inch or two - which is so outside the norm of anatomy that it can be visually stunning when seen in real life. I'm glad you admit that science isn't opinion. Science will tell you that a Second Life "shape" is a set of numerical values that will warp a crudely-made digital polygon mesh into a configuration that may resemble a fairly realistic human, a non-realistic humanoid, or anything else that the parameters can produce. Whether any given configuration is "good" or "bad" IS opinion though. Why should being disproportionate be any "worse" than, say, having ears borrowed from another species or portraying an ethnic group one isn't actually in real life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisette Seranno Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 I really don't know why the way some people's avi's look bother others. Certain things do bother me, (thigh gaps, frowny mouths, etc) but I don't let it affect my SL in any way. If that's the way they choose to look, so be it. As someone with an avi with a "big butt" I really don't care what other people think. Because at the end of the day, there are circles on SL where that is considered attractive and no I don't have my sliders set to 100. Sometimes the community goes overboard on how an avi should look and that goes both ways. Everybody's standard of beauty is not the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orca Flotta Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Why should being disproportionate be any "worse" than, say, having ears borrowed from another species or portraying an ethnic group one isn't actually in real life? Theresa, you're comparing apples to oranges here. Of course you can wear cat's ears and a dinosaur tail if you fancy it but that's not what this thread is about. We're talking about human shapes here, about the LL offering of a Girl Next Door (clearly sposed to be a human) and what other commercial shape makers are selling for our money. It's about how these very lazily configured shapes negatively influence millions of users when they make/mod their own shapes. It all starts with that trainwreck we all know as Appearance Editor. It's about the non-related 0 - 100 sliders, the totally wrong sizing compared to prim sizes, it's about the ultrabad standard camera angle and about the carelessly configurated LL light settings. They all have a negative influence on how we create and conceive our avatars. That's why most beds in SL are 4 meters long and ceilings 10 meters high. That's why you are considered a dwarf with a 2 meters tall female avie. The whole thing is outta proportion because LL was amateurish and lazy and refused to switch to a bettter, more conform, system. There are so many things totally wrong in SL, even the whole world is off. Most non-vehicle users may not know it but North in worldmap and minimap is actually at 90°. WTF??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penny Patton Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Vanessa Hallison wrote: Here are my top 5 physical pet peeves in Second Life.... 1. People with tiny heads 2. Extremely short arms..... 3. Teeny tiny feet 4. Abnormally broad shoulders 5. Gigantic hips... (I think this might be a trend among the "Cool cats' of Second Life, but I'm not so sure) Can anyone explain to me why a vast majority of Second Life avatars are completely disproportionate? I understand that it's a virtual world and people can look however they want to look... but I just don't understand how looking like an alien looks better than just being proportionate. I'll give my view. To give you an idea of where I'm coming from, I'm an artist, professionally. I draw cartoons for a living. I've worked on videogames, comic books and television shows. I've also worked in art education. Ok, so why are so many avatars so badly proportioned? Well, frankly the cards are stacked against the user in creating an avatar with attractive, human proportions. The default and starter avatar shapes provided to new users or users creating a new shape are badly proportioned to begin with. New users are given, from the very beginning, an avatar with a tiny head, freakishly short arms, and legs almost twice as long as they should be. The appearance editor provides no proportion guides to the user. SL provides us with a lot of freedom to create shapes with unnatural proportions, which is great, but since the average person doesn't have a very strong understanding of human body proportions LL needed to provide some sort of guides or tools to help the average user easily create an attractive, proportionate shape. They didn't, so people do the best they can while eyeballing proportions based on an imperfect understanding. It is impossible to create proportionate female avatars at larger sizes. For unknown reasons, LL skewed the arm length slider shorter for women. Where an arm length of 60-70 might be proportionate on a male shape, if you switch over to the female shape you need to push that slider up to 80-100. And if your female avatar is taller than about 6'2", it becomes impossible to keep arm length proportionate because it's already maxed out. To put this in perspective, the female starter avatars are mostly between 6'4" and 7' tall. So, Linden Lab starts woman avatars off at sizes where it's already impossible to make the shape proportionate even if you do understand proportions. The appearance editor is unfriendly, unnecessarily complex and filled with bugs and quirks. The height displayed in the appearance editor is wrong. The female arm length slider is skewed so you need to be between 75-100 to have proportionate arms AND keep your avatar under about 6'2" just to be able to. The female torso muscle slider just stops at 50. To resize a shape you need to entirely remake it at the new size, adjusting every single proportion. The various sliders affect multiple proportions in ways that are not obvious (For example, increasing your torso length can decrease your avatar height!) it's generally exceptionally difficult to create an attractive, proportionate shape. There are surprisingly simple solutions to all of these issues, but they require that LL recognize and understand the issues in the first place. They don't seem to understand that you can't properly develope content creation tools without someone with a strong understanding of how those tools are used on staff to guide development. That's a mistake that has cost them an obscene amount of money and that's why most SL avatars have such awkward proportions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie Rubanis Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Interesting thread. I've recently starting looking at fashion blogs for SL that feature new styles and fashions from some of our great designers. What I've noticed, on these blogs, is a specific body type. Sadly, it's a body type I've always found odd in SL but that's just personal preference. The avatar has wide hips and skinny legs that you could drive a train through. They almost always have big, puffy downturned pouty lips. I just figured it was some kind of specific group of people who use this shape. Sort of like how there are Nekos or vampires but these are just very cartoonish looking avatars. Does anyone know the type of shape i'm talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coby Foden Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Annie Rubanis wrote: What I've noticed, on these blogs, is a specific body type. Sadly, it's a body type I've always found odd in SL but that's just personal preference. The avatar has wide hips and skinny legs that you could drive a train through. They almost always have big, puffy downturned pouty lips. Does anyone know the type of shape i'm talking about? We sure do know them. :smileysurprised: :smileyfrustrated: :smileywink: I would advice to avoid them like plague. There are nice proper human shapes available. It's not extremely hard to learn make one's own shape. It needs practise, motivation to learn it and good understanding about proper human proportions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUExANGEL Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 You can be whoever you want, and look how you want to look. We are all given the basic starter avatar. If you want a larger avatar with longer arms, you have to purchase it. You have to figure out what you want to look like, and make it your mission to go find it, and buy it. It can be a bit of tedious work. It was for me, but I was determined. Then I got the fun task of realising that the average height in SL for females is quite a bit taller than me. No problem. I fixed it, and fixed it, and fixed it until I realized my limit of fixing. Now I love the way my Avatar looks. This is my first virtual world ever. Now, you can judge, hate, and peeve the way others look all you want. When it comes down to it, that's your problem, not theirs. They like the way they look and if you don't like it, that's your problem for you to deal with, no one else's. We all start out the same. We all manage to learn how to accept what we have & work with what's available to us in the game. You can too if you want to. You can also have fun if you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUExANGEL Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 No. Not everyone can just figure prims and all that other stuff out. I don't even know what a prim is & I don't care. I know how to make my avatar look good, I know how to buy clothing & wear it. I can do anything that I want to do & I do it well (eventually). Anyone and everyone who creates shapes and sells them has to make their first crappy shape, try to sell it, and learn how crappy it is so they can go back & learn & improve. I didn't know one little thing about anything when I started this game. Now I can correctly do a clean install on a Firestorm Viewer update. I know everything about my viewer & how to use it. I teach others how to learn what I know. I don't understand how you people can be so mean. You weren't born knowing this stuff. You had to be new at it just like everyone else. If you don't like how the creators of this game created it, then why do you play it? You would probably have the best looking avatar in sl if you spent as much time on how to improve it as you do complaining about how bad everything & everyone looks to you. I think they are all beautiful, and I know I'm not the only one who thinks that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 BLUExANGEL wrote: I don't even know what a prim is & I don't care Now I can correctly do a clean install on a Firestorm Viewer update. The New User Experience at work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monyana Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 i went the RL proportioned / vitruvian route for my own avi and i love the non vitruvian shapes on others. not that i notice it on others, i will only notice it if im controlling the avi. its just another choice of the many available in SL. if every shape was vitruvian, imo SL would be even more freaky than it is lool. what i will say is that its not just a case of making a vitruvian shape and everything is all rosey. imo most skins will look a bit off. AOs and animations can move less naturally sometimes in impossible ways, and even when they are mocap designed. mesh clothes can look a lot worse. theres something odd about the male ass position, lol. like you cant look RL proportioned from front and rear view, imo. and the default camera angle and lense gold fish bowl effect means, for 99% of the time you dont look vitruvian anyway. in the end i made slight tweaks toward 'freak' lol from the vitruvian shape, and am making a few more since, but i learned some fun stuff along the way ) ...not the least of which was making a box and stretching it lool. ..oh yeah, ty to pussycat catnip & penny patton for your blog tutorials on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coby Foden Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 monyana wrote: AOs and animations can move less naturally sometimes in impossible ways, and even when they are mocap designed. Animations and poses are really problematic. They are made for certain size avatar on which they can work really well (if made well, avoiding extreme "contortions"). What I have found rather strange is that it seems that a lot of animations and poses are made for short armed "T-Rex" style avatars. My avatar has natural long arms (like humans have in RL). Often my hands go inside the avatar. Then the drink animations always tend to pour the drink on my nose instead of the mouth. :smileyindifferent: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monyana Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 lool ..yup, and the frunkensteen hugss loool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 BLUExANGEL wrote: If you want a larger avatar with longer arms, you have to purchase it. or make it yourself... BLUExANGEL wrote: Then I got the fun task of realising that the average height in SL for females is quite a bit taller than me. No problem. I fixed it, and fixed it, and fixed it until I realized my limit of fixing. Now I love the way my Avatar looks. This is my first virtual world ever. Why would you conform to be average? Be unique. If you are the "average female height" then you probably tower over me. /me shrugs. BLUExANGEL wrote: Now, you can judge, hate, and peeve the way others look all you want. When it comes down to it, that's your problem, not theirs. They like the way they look and if you don't like it, that's your problem for you to deal with, no one else's. We all start out the same. We all manage to learn how to accept what we have & work with what's available to us in the game. You can too if you want to. You can also have fun if you want to. Rage much? No one is judging, hating or peeving. People are making suggestions. By definition a pet peeve is something that bothers you... not others.. so i suppose they are peeving. We don't have to accept what has become the norm in SL. There is no reason for a 35 foot high ceiling.. or a 12 foot bed, or couch, or a 5 foot high counter top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coby Foden Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Drake1 Nightfire wrote: We don't have to accept what has become the norm in SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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