Linden Lab your PBR is giving me a headache

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

The forums will be flooded with threads about PBR.

I stand corrected. 

[Leslie Trihey]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Only 10! ❤️

 

Still wet behind the ears.

[MissSweetViolet]

5 hours ago, Polenth Yue said:

Though as a reminder before the lock, a lot of stuff seems shinier to some people because they didn't turn on advanced lighting. So for anyone in that situation, your avatar always looked like shiny plastic, and your wood floors were always varnished and washed out by overly strong lights, because you couldn't see the shine. But most other people had it turned on, so you/your house always looked that bad. The upside is that now you can see it, so you can fix it.

I agree with this so much, I can't count the number of times I've gotten an outfit only for it to look like metal or latex because the creator didn't check it in ALM. Of course, no mod, so what could have been an easy fix became an impossible one.

With PBR, that may become far less of an issue now.

[Drayke Newall]

3 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

Asking for clarification. Are you saying that LL needs to educate people on computer technology? If yes, when did it become the responsibility of LL to explain VRAM to users?

Linden Lab have a responsibility to ensure that any person joining second life or any existing member using Second Life to ensure that they can, and can continue to run it, without any performance issues relating to low end systems. To do this people rely on what the company making the game/platform state what is the minimum requirements to run said software.

Should LL update their game to improve graphics, sure, I have no issue with that. However, should Linden Lab take extreme flak over such a release? Hell yes. Should customers on lower end computers who may not have cash to update their comp be angry? Yes, of course.

LL have been on the PBR update process for some time and yet, very little mention of needing a better comp have been stated by LL. There have been no emails sent as warnings, really not many blog posts (if any) either.

Hell, the PBR viewer has been the default viewer since what, November/December 2023? Yet, on the very same page with that very same download link we have another link to what can only be classed as the most lazy and ridiculous System Requirements (specs) the gaming world has ever had the pleasure of seeing:

The thing is completely ambiguous and is why no game, software or OS ever shows such a system requirements like this and always shows minimum hardware names. Looking at that min requirements page means that a person can run Second Life (with its current PBR release) on a 16/17 year old PC and only needs a Intel Core Duo U2500 1.2 GHz (made in 2006) and a GeForce 8800 GTS that has 512mb of RAM (made in 2006). Not to mention only 4 gigs of RAM (my comp at idle would use more RAM than that).

Now you cannot tell me that a computer with that hardware can support this new release even at min. with those specs.

So to answer your question, yes, Linden Lab sure as hell needs to explain VRAM to users, as from what I can see they certainly have an entirely different perspective and interpretation as to what computer technology is.

In this case it is more that it isn't a matter of Linden Lab needing to explain computer tech to their customers, but more that customers need to explain computer tech to Linden Lab.

Edited June 25 by Drayke Newall

[Thecla]

10 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Linden Lab have a responsibility to ensure that any person joining second life or any existing member using Second Life to ensure that they can, and can continue to run it, without any performance issues relating to low end systems.

I must have missed the memo on this. Where does this responsibility spring from? Is it in their charter or something? Or is this just some delusional moralistic certitude that was spawned somewhere in your head?

[Drayke Newall]

35 minutes ago, Thecla said:

I must have missed the memo on this. Where does this responsibility spring from? Is it in their charter or something? Or is this just some delusional moralistic certitude that was spawned somewhere in your head?

If a company releases system requirements then they need to ensure that a person can play on those system requirements with no to very little performance issues - a guarantee. That IS the sole reason why system requirements/specs are stated for a game. 

Second Life's min system requirements state that a person using a 17 year old PC CAN run Second Life at a reasonable frame rate on minimum. That is the guarantee Linden Lab have stated by providing such system requirements.

Second Life's recommended requirements state that a person using a 9 year old PC can run Second Life. Recommended requirements usually imply high graphics with a resolution rate of 1080p at reasonably stable 60fps. If Linden Lab have stated those to be the recommended requirements that means a person on a i7 5960x with a GTX 1050 should be able to play Second Life with no reasonable disturbance in gameplay fps wise.

I would like to see even that recommended requirement PC play the PBR viewer on high and be happy with their fps and system temps.

Edited June 25 by Drayke Newall

[Irina Forwzy]

35 minutes ago, Thecla said:

I must have missed the memo on this. Where does this responsibility spring from? Is it in their charter or something? Or is this just some delusional moralistic certitude that was spawned somewhere in your head?

So a game can develop the software without any minimal requirements in your head? Should they bother to indicate which is the system requirement? Since, clearly they don't owe you anything they can just put the game out and not indicate the requirements. You as the consumer then have full responsibility for the purchase or free login. Correct?

If that's the case, then why do they have a requirements?

Edited June 25 by Irina Forwzy
Further explanation

[Irina Forwzy]

21 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

If a company releases system requirements then they need to ensure that a person can play on those system requirements with no to very little performance requirements - a guarantee. That IS the sole reason why system requirements/specs are stated for a game. 

Second Life's min system requirements state that a person using a 17 year old PC CAN run Second Life at a reasonable frame rate on minimum. That is the guarantee Linden Lab have stated by providing such system requirements.

Second Life's recommended requirements state that a person using a 9 year old PC can run Second Life. Recommended requirements usually imply high graphics with a resolution rate of 1080p at reasonably stable 60fps. If Linden Lab have stated those to be the recommended requirements that means a person on a i7 5960x with a GTX 1050 should be able to play Second Life with no reasonable disturbance in gameplay fps wise.

I would like to see even that recommended requirement PC play the PBR viewer on high and be happy with their fps and system temps.

Companies take systems through legal when contractually they promise an SLA for service. Or indicated they had required software/servers and then the company adds on extras.  I've had to deal with that. Yet, somehow when it's an individual person, people tend to always gravitate to defend the companies.

[Prokofy Neva]

12 hours ago, Count Burks said:

After seeing all the commotion circulating on these boards about the recent PBR introduction I decided to have a look to see what all the screaming is about.

I use Firestorm Viewer normally but for this occasion I have used the normal Second Life viewer latest version.

I have a decent computer, desktop, good graphics card enough ram.

Usually I do not write about these type of updates related to graphics such a EEP etc... However this one is pushing the limits I think with what you are presenting to your customers.

Pushing the limits as in, the update to the rendering engine is making 3D models which looked perfectly fine before, look just nasty, cheap and ugly. 

The word NASTY really sums up my impression of your PBR update. Nasty as in extremely hard to look at. I have adjusted the graphics in the preferences panel, experimented with brightness, even tried some Windlight settings adjustments. Turning off shadows and all kinds of features attempting to get some sort of normal views. Turning off transparency on the water shader in an attempt to make the ocean look presentable.

 

The ocean shader looks like cheap plastic.

The hardness of light on objects is making them look horrible. Like you have increased the contrast slider all the way up with your lighting. The terrain textures became way too dark.

There are now glitches with alpha textures that are being used in the water to create special colors in the ocean.

Beautiful looking waterfalls with rock formations created by Alex Bader look horrific. It is like a lot of the content in world is now sprinkled with some type of plastic coating or varnish. 

 

If this is your idea of attracting new users or upgrading your platform I think you are in for an awakening.

 

Things like sunlight beams in trees, textures on buildings are looking filthy.

 

I do not know what your PBR team has been thinking but I do not find you should present this to your customers. I do not want plastic ocean or objects being set to high contrast levels. 

I had to log out because it gave me a headache just to look at this.

Also @Linden Lab when I purchase landscaping Objects because they look good I expect these Object to continue to look as when I buy them.

What you are presenting with your PBR update is low quality. 

You are either in need of much better programmers or a completely new gaming engine. The only slight improvement I noticed was the sunset and sunrise view settings which looked somewhat better. Still that is a very meager compared to everything else which has been damaged because of this update.

I am sure your creators are really mad to see what you have done to their work. I hope you will fix this. Nothing should look any different from before UNLESS content creators and users make specific usage of GLTF textures in their creations.

 

A quality assurance manager is not in the company?

Thank you, Count Burks. As an old, respected land dealer on the grid (as old as prims, no? -- DrFran called me "as old as prims" tonight which means yes, I'm 20+), your opinion should count.

The PBR used on the SL12B on the roads and props all around were so glowy and so hurt my RL eyes that I was grateful to my friend and building buddy who put up a big space station that I could HIDE in, BLOCK the windows and put out my little scenes without having to have MY RETINAS BURNED. Thank you, Alazarin! 

[Prokofy Neva]

11 hours ago, Count Burks said:

I have an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB/PCIe/SSE2 can render this which should be more than plenty to handle Second Life graphics. Left is the 3GB version right is the 6GB version. It has nothing to do with my PC.

 

Somebody big like Alex Bader may be busy fixing up all his stuff to be PBR worthy now but not every designer will have the time and money for this.

My dollars will go to those who can offer both PBR and non PBR products, full stop.

[CaithLynnSayes]

6 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Common sense says "Don't listen to screaming barbie".

I am never changing that profile picture.  

[AmeliaJ08]

11 hours ago, vacotton said:

I couldn't upgrade my trusty old Dell Inspiron with it's I7 4790 to Win 11 so I went out and got a new Del with 14th gen I7 and an Nvidia RTX4060TI GBU and 16 gigs of ram.  I was a happy camper getting 400 down and 60 fps (throttled).

Then the Ttnkerers at Firestorm released this latest abomination which brought my system to its knees.  Now, if it happened to me with a very strong system, I can only imagine what others with older systems are experiencing. 

So I will logged on to the Firestorm group and told them that the job wasn't finished and was met with bullying language from those folks about insulting their precious brainchild.  I simply responded by telling them that in my humble opinion the job wasn't finished.  Full stop.  And the job IS not finished. 

So I rolled back to the prior iteration and all is well for the time being until I am forced to install that trainwreck of a viewer.  I am not going to beat a dead horse as the preceding posts tell it all.

Cheers,

Jack Aubrey, Host Hall of Famer and 10 year veteran of SL

It should not bring that system to its knees at all, that is about 3-4x the system that it needs to run well...

You've got something wrong with the settings or your drivers. Potentially the hardware (do games or any other app that uses the GPU work fine?) but given it is new I doubt that.

Edited June 25 by AmeliaJ08

[Modulated]

6 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Linden Lab have a responsibility to ensure that any person joining second life or any existing member using Second Life to ensure that they can, and can continue to run it, without any performance issues relating to low end systems. To do this people rely on what the company making the game/platform state what is the minimum requirements to run said software.

Should LL update their game to improve graphics, sure, I have no issue with that. However, should Linden Lab take extreme flak over such a release? Hell yes. Should customers on lower end computers who may not have cash to update their comp be angry? Yes, of course.

LL have been on the PBR update process for some time and yet, very little mention of needing a better comp have been stated by LL. There have been no emails sent as warnings, really not many blog posts (if any) either.

Hell, the PBR viewer has been the default viewer since what, November/December 2023? Yet, on the very same page with that very same download link we have another link to what can only be classed as the most lazy and ridiculous System Requirements (specs) the gaming world has ever had the pleasure of seeing:

The thing is completely ambiguous and is why no game, software or OS ever shows such a system requirements like this and always shows minimum hardware names. Looking at that min requirements page means that a person can run Second Life (with its current PBR release) on a 16/17 year old PC and only needs a Intel Core Duo U2500 1.2 GHz (made in 2006) and a GeForce 8800 GTS that has 512mb of RAM (made in 2006). Not to mention only 4 gigs of RAM (my comp at idle would use more RAM than that).

Now you cannot tell me that a computer with that hardware can support this new release even at min. with those specs.

So to answer your question, yes, Linden Lab sure as hell needs to explain VRAM to users, as from what I can see they certainly have an entirely different perspective and interpretation as to what computer technology is.

In this case it is more that it isn't a matter of Linden Lab needing to explain computer tech to their customers, but more that customers need to explain computer tech to Linden Lab.

The minimum specs are a complete and horrible joke at this point and need to be rewritten. As I said elsewhere here, those min. specs will let you log in, but what are you going to do after that? Nothing. That's what.

[xDancingStarx]

The initial post puts so much effort into complaining, but what does it not do? It doesn't provide one single before/after image with detailed settings. So there is not really even a base for discussion. I had to remove my water surface prims because with PBR they were glitching, and there are for sure more incompatibilities. I also don't agree with avatar skin shadows. My non PBR house looks awesome with PBR though. I also don't use my own custom EEP settings. Either default, or sim settings. I understand that the thread starter is extremely annoyed, but objectively PBR is not something that will drive new users away.

Edited June 25 by xDancingStarx

[AmeliaJ08]

25 minutes ago, Modulated said:

The minimum specs are a complete and horrible joke at this point and need to be rewritten. As I said elsewhere here, those min. specs will let you log in, but what are you going to do after that? Nothing. That's what.

Yep. Funnily enough the whole "OpenGL 4.6" recommended spec has never made much sense to me, does SL even use features of OpenGL 4.5+? it seems to run fine on much older versions so I assumed they're simply not using any feature of more up to date versions.

Either way API support is not a great way of listing recommended specifications in this case, it should be very specific hardware examples.

 

 

[Thecla]

7 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

If a company releases system requirements then they need to ensure that a person can play on those system requirements with no to very little performance issues - a guarantee. That IS the sole reason why system requirements/specs are stated for a game. 

Second Life's min system requirements state that a person using a 17 year old PC CAN run Second Life at a reasonable frame rate on minimum. That is the guarantee Linden Lab have stated by providing such system requirements.

Second Life's recommended requirements state that a person using a 9 year old PC can run Second Life. Recommended requirements usually imply high graphics with a resolution rate of 1080p at reasonably stable 60fps. If Linden Lab have stated those to be the recommended requirements that means a person on a i7 5960x with a GTX 1050 should be able to play Second Life with no reasonable disturbance in gameplay fps wise.

I would like to see even that recommended requirement PC play the PBR viewer on high and be happy with their fps and system temps.

That's not what your quoted statement says. Choose your words more carefully.

Minimum requirements means that the application will function. There are no promises about how well it will function. It certainly does not mean "without any performance issues relating to low end systems".

[Thecla]

7 hours ago, Irina Forwzy said:

So a game can develop the software without any minimal requirements in your head? Should they bother to indicate which is the system requirement? Since, clearly they don't owe you anything they can just put the game out and not indicate the requirements. You as the consumer then have full responsibility for the purchase or free login. Correct?

If that's the case, then why do they have a requirements?

Minimum requirements are what is needed for an application to load and run. There are no guarantees about how WELL it will run, only that it will actually run. I would say that "without any performance issues relating to low end systems" is a pipe dream that no developer would ever agree to for their "minimum system requirements".

[Arielle Popstar]

19 minutes ago, Thecla said:

Minimum requirements are what is needed for an application to load and run. There are no guarantees about how WELL it will run, only that it will actually run. I would say that "without any performance issues relating to low end systems" is a pipe dream that no developer would ever agree to for their "minimum system requirements".

A level of performance would be expected that a reasonable person would find playable.

[AmeliaJ08]

33 minutes ago, Thecla said:

Minimum requirements are what is needed for an application to load and run. There are no guarantees about how WELL it will run, only that it will actually run. I would say that "without any performance issues relating to low end systems" is a pipe dream that no developer would ever agree to for their "minimum system requirements".

I'm going to attract the ire of the it's-not-a-game crowd here but... I disagree with this. Minimum specification for a 3D virtual world like Second Life would be the minimum specification required to load and actually use the world, move around, use the features etc. Stuff that is dependent on a certain level of performance - not much but a certain level - that isn't necessarily met by the specifications Linden Lab have listed on that page.

Just like any game (I know...) really. Minimum spec means it's possible to turn down settings and actually play.

 

[Aethelwine]

14 hours ago, Clem Marques said:

Anyone else desperately clinging to the pre-PBR versions of SL viewers? 

I went back to the pre-pbr viewer yesterday and going to stay there until it gets fixed.

PBR doesn't overheat my computer or anything, but it makes the world look ugly. Water in particular is broken and glitches with animated alpha textures like water.

If I was taking photos I suspect I could tweak settings to make things look good. But I don't. I mostly use region settings, it is land owners jobs to make EEPs and if the Lindens can't even get that right on mainland. Then I am not going to try and work it out for the parcels I run.

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Thecla said:

That's not what your quoted statement says. Choose your words more carefully.

Not my fault you took what I said out of context. If you read the sentence after what you quoted you can clearly see I am talking about Low end systems in relation to the min requirements LL have set.

1 hour ago, Thecla said:

Minimum requirements means that the application will function. There are no promises about how well it will function. It certainly does not mean "without any performance issues relating to low end systems".

That is not what the meaning of minimum requirements mean. With your definition, if a person loads a program or game and it starts (functions) that is fine.

Minimum specs (at least now) are the minimum specs needed for the game to run, function and perform to a reasonable standard and yes without performance issues. I am not saying there will be slowdowns, of course there will be. This has been defined now by modern AAA games now including as part of their min specs the 'expected' fps. 99% of said companies all show min specs to be 30fps at low graphics. They are playable but without performance issues (i.e. crashes, overheating, freezing, ridiculously slow fps, etc). That is what I am talking about when I say performance issues.

For example, Cyberpunk and Hogwarts legacy all show 30fps on low graphics. Hogwarts Legacy - PC SPECS  Cyberpunk 2077 System Requirements 

SL atm with the min specs they have shown would cause crashes, 2-3 fps and that is even if it actually allows you to move without crashing. It is also laughable that LL still show 480p as min specs. Just embarrassing.

[Irina Forwzy]

1 hour ago, Thecla said:

That's not what your quoted statement says. Choose your words more carefully.

Minimum requirements means that the application will function. There are no promises about how well it will function. It certainly does not mean "without any performance issues relating to low end systems".

Mimimum requirements indicate in regular software by the way - that you can use the platform or software without interruption or with substantial software issues at it's minimum setup. It's understood that if you are using the minimum requirement for SL that you really shouldn't be using the highest graphics in the game. That is how it is with a large number of other systems.

If you use the software and decide to increase the graphics in a game then you are going to have performance issues. The point is that you can play the game or the software with minimal issues insofar that you are using the minimum settings.

Issue with LL is that these minimum settings have shifted and yet they haven't moved the goal posts for minimum requirements nor have they introduced much of an alternative to that. 

 

[Irina Forwzy]

3 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Not my fault you took what I said out of context. If you read the sentence after what you quoted you can clearly see I am talking about Low end systems in relation to the min requirements LL have set.

That is not what the meaning of minimum requirements mean. With your definition, if a person loads a program or game and it starts (functions) that is fine.

Minimum specs (at least now) are the minimum specs needed for the game to run, function and perform to a reasonable standard and yes without performance issues. I am not saying there will be slowdowns, of course there will be. This has been defined now by modern AAA games now including as part of their min specs the 'expected' fps. 99% of said companies all show min specs to be 30fps at low graphics. They are playable but without performance issues (i.e. crashes, overheating, freezing, ridiculously slow fps, etc). That is what I am talking about when I say performance issues.

For example, Cyberpunk and Hogwarts legacy all show 30fps on low graphics. Hogwarts Legacy - PC SPECS  Cyberpunk 2077 System Requirements 

SL atm with the min specs they have shown would cause crashes, 2-3 fps and that is even if it actually allows you to move without crashing. It is also laughable that LL still show 480p as min specs. Just embarrassing.

Correct. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

25 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

For example, Cyberpunk and Hogwarts legacy all show 30fps on low graphics. Hogwarts Legacy - PC SPECS  Cyberpunk 2077 System Requirements 

 

Games generally are set up so that there is a level of content and behavior that won't be exceeded and can't be reduced.

In Second Life it's entirely possible for someone to spend time in an empty skybox or island and do low-graphical activities like building, scripting or text chat; it's also entirely possible for them to be in a multi-region built-up area full of sixty avatars that are all more graphically intensive than the main character of the typical game.

[Thecla]

55 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Not my fault you took what I said out of context. If you read the sentence after what you quoted you can clearly see I am talking about Low end systems in relation to the min requirements LL have set.

That is not what the meaning of minimum requirements mean. With your definition, if a person loads a program or game and it starts (functions) that is fine.

Minimum specs (at least now) are the minimum specs needed for the game to run, function and perform to a reasonable standard and yes without performance issues. I am not saying there will be slowdowns, of course there will be. This has been defined now by modern AAA games now including as part of their min specs the 'expected' fps. 99% of said companies all show min specs to be 30fps at low graphics. They are playable but without performance issues (i.e. crashes, overheating, freezing, ridiculously slow fps, etc). That is what I am talking about when I say performance issues.

For example, Cyberpunk and Hogwarts legacy all show 30fps on low graphics. Hogwarts Legacy - PC SPECS  Cyberpunk 2077 System Requirements 

SL atm with the min specs they have shown would cause crashes, 2-3 fps and that is even if it actually allows you to move without crashing. It is also laughable that LL still show 480p as min specs. Just embarrassing.

If your complaint is simply that LL has not updated their stated minimum requirements, that's fair. If your complaint is that they never should have changed the performance requirements because they don't fit the stated requirements, well, that's pretty much a luddite attitude. I hope it's the former. And that is easily fixed.

In general, I think we're in muddy territory here. First, there is the whole "SL is not a game, it's a platform" debate. It faces unique challenges since all the content is user generated and user owned. and there are very few if any ubiquitous assets that are common to all sims short of some terrain textures. The quality of content spans the gamut from exceptional to absurdly bad, with the latter potentially even causing viewers to crash. I've seen a hair pin the size of a chopstick with 12 1024x1024 textures on it.

It's possible that you can log into SL into an empty sim with the default avatar with minimum requirements just fulfilled. It's also true that there are some spectacularly detailed and complex sims where even the baddest game rigs on the planet sit up and clear their throats.

My point is, saying LL should hew to what Avalanche does and how they specify minimum requirements strikes me as irrational.

I'll also point out the game is free. You can download it without any investment in anything other than a few minutes of your time and explore and determine for yourself whether the speed of your machine and connection are adequate for what you want to do in SL.

Edited June 25 by Thecla