Is Lindenlab choosing a doomed path for SL ? Tell us if the EEP and PBR introduction changed the way you play SL

[AmeliaJ08]

4 hours ago, gwynchisholm said:

I like it to look pretty but its not important, you can just turn it off

It doesnt really feel like misdirected effort, sure id like to see other things taken care of well before making the game look prettier, but its also not that big of a deal.

This is just a virtual chatroom, dont over think it, it works just as well on a toaster of a computer with toaster mode graphics enabled, and itll still look pretty good.

 

 

A lot of people were apparently running something below toaster mode and had ALM disabled. ALM absolutely cripples Intel integrated GPUs so this makes sense but yeah, that's what they're complaining about. They've got Intel UHD whatever integrated GPUs and now cannot disable ALM.

A 750Ti might as well be a 4090 in comparison to the average Intel integrated GPU.

 

Edited June 23 by AmeliaJ08

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 hour ago, BriannaLovey said:

If this is with ALM enabled, it will probably be around the same. If it is without ALM enabled, then your FPS will be decreased by around 3/4 to 1/4 of what it was before, assuming you follow the antivirus whitelisting steps correctly.

Thanks! Yes I have ALM enabled now. Good information.

[Extrude Ragu]

1 hour ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Can someone who is computer literate (there are many here)  tell me if I will have an issue running the FS PBR version?

12th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-1260P   2.10 GHz

16.0 GB (15.7 GB usable)

64-bit operating system, x64-based processor

Those stats on their own should be OK, but what really matters is the graphics card - What graphics card do you have?

[Kathlen Onyx]

32 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Those stats on their own should be OK, but what really matters is the graphics card - What graphics card do you have?

Intel(R) Iris(R) Xe graphics

What is the best wind light or EEP?

Right now I'm using midday 1 which seems "ok" but if there is a better one please let me know.  These are the settings I have and I'm getting about 11 fps at Rockin' Robin, which is not great.

 

Edited June 23 by Kathlen Onyx

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, Thecla said:

SL has lagged for years, in part to accommodate those with older machines

THAT fraudulent claim is a "must be on drugs" statement if ever I heard one.

SL hasn't "lagged for years" because some people can't afford a PC as expensive as yours, they are not "holding you back" or any other fact free over-entitled hardware-snob BS.

 

1 hour ago, Thecla said:

don't include a game released in the last five years.

A gaming industry survey, carried out earlier THIS year, apparently revealed that 60% of all gamer play time hours, were on games OVER 6 years old. Gameplay on games released in 2023 was a tiny fraction of that.

 

The "games released in the last 5 years argument ignores the fact that said games get played less, and older games with "holding my expensive PC back" graphics are MORE popular.

[steeljane42]

9 hours ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Right now I'm using midday 1 which seems "ok" but if there is a better one please let me know.  These are the settings I have and I'm getting about 11 fps at Rockin' Robin, which is not great.

Your settings are too much even for the decent mid-range GPUs, and definitely not what you want for your IGPU if the Intel's one is the only one you have.

Turn off mirrors, space screen reflections (it's also bugged now, so water has artifacts aside of looking terrible), shadows (to none), and the draw distance to something reasonable and not the current 320m (I wouldn't put more than 60m on your machine), which is 1.5 regions worth of draw distance.

Edited June 24 by steeljane42
typos

[Rick Nightingale]

1 hour ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Intel(R) Iris(R) Xe graphics

So just the integrated GPU (iGPU) in the Intel processor? Not a separate GPU chip or card? (Intel does make them like that too, but I haven't come across them 'in the wild').

I use a mini PC for everything except SL, and occasionally for SL. It has an Intel i7-13700T, 64GB super-fast RAM, fastest available nVME storage... and only the iGPU. Higher spec than yours, and it absolutely sucks for SL. Intel iGPUs simply aren't capable of running SL at usable framerates at even moderate settings. They weren't before PBR, and certainly not now. I will say though it's actually better with the new FS release than it was with most of the betas.

15 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

Your settings are too much even for for the decent mid-range GPUs, and definitely not what you want for your IGPU if the Intel's one is the only one you have.

Listen to the above by steeljane42.

I do similar, everything is turned down on the mini PC I have. It's usable like that. Not nice, but usable.

Edited June 23 by Rick Nightingale

[AmeliaJ08]

55 minutes ago, Rick Nightingale said:

So just the integrated GPU (iGPU) in the Intel processor? Not a separate GPU chip or card? (Intel does make them like that too, but I haven't come across them 'in the wild').

I use a mini PC for everything except SL, and occasionally for SL. It has an Intel i7-13700T, 64GB super-fast RAM, fastest available nVME storage... and only the iGPU. Higher spec than yours, and it absolutely sucks for SL. Intel iGPUs simply aren't capable of running SL at usable framerates at even moderate settings. They weren't before PBR, and certainly not now. I will say though it's actually better with the new FS release than it was with most of the betas.

Listen to the above by steeljane42.

I do similar, everything is turned down on the mini PC I have. It's usable like that. Not nice, but usable.

I think LL really need to make this abundantly clear in their recommended specification. There is maybe 1 integrated GPU on the market that actually stands a chance (maybe?) of running SL with ALM/PBR enabled so right now they should be saying in no uncertain terms that a dedicated GPU is required.

 

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 hour ago, steeljane42 said:

Your settings are too much even for for the decent mid-range GPUs, and definitely not what you want for your IGPU if the Intel's one is the only one you have.

Turn off mirrors, space screen reflections (it's also bugged now, so water has artifacts aside of looking terrible), shadows (to none), and the draw distance to something reasonable and not the current 320m (I wouldn't put more than 60m on your machine), which is 1.5 regions worth of draw distance.

Well, I tried this and it "sorta" worked. I removed what you said and put my graphics to low and my FPS went from 11 in my linden home to 30 so that was good.  Rezzing objects took forever and if I looked away It had to rez all over again.  Some things never did rez at all.  So I'll go back to the old FS until I can get a new computer, which will be never so when I have to go to PBR hopefully there will be a viewer that you can turn it off.

I am rather disappointed though because even on the lowest graphic setting all the textures seemed to Pop.  My leather couch actually looked like a leather couch and not plastic and I was getting 30 FPS.  

 

Edited June 24 by Kathlen Onyx

[BriannaLovey]

1 hour ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

I think LL really need to make this abundantly clear in their recommended specification. There is maybe 1 integrated GPU on the market that actually stands a chance (maybe?) of running SL with ALM/PBR enabled so right now they should be saying in no uncertain terms that a dedicated GPU is required.

 

Some of it is also that Windows and MacOS already use your graphics processing more than they should. On Linux, I can run PBR with certain viewers at 15-20FPS (compared to 30-40 with forward rendering,) since my desktop environment is a lot more lightweight than windows. So that is always another option if you can't afford to pay tithe to the leather jacket man.

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

4 hours ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

 

Not an expert but here's what i would do as those settings are pretty high

 

[Toothless Draegonne]

4 hours ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Intel(R) Iris(R) Xe graphics

What is the best wind light or EEP?

Right now I'm using midday 1 which seems "ok" but if there is a better one please let me know.  These are the settings I have and I'm getting about 11 fps at Rockin' Robin, which is not great.

 

That draw distance is crazy anywhere outside of special cases. Even the Ultra preset only sets it to 256m for a reason. If you're in a club, you might find that 64 or even 32m is just fine, and in a viewer like Firestorm, there are quick and easy ways of raising and lowering draw distance without going to the main preferences window.

Also as mentioned, turn mirrors off. Screen Space Reflections are broken with llWater currently, so you might as well turn that off. Drop shadows to minimum or none, which is the frame rate hog with previous not-PBR viewers anyway. ALM was never the problem, shadows were.

There is no reason an Xe96EU iGPU cannot run Second Life when sensibly set. I've been using that exact setup on an 1165G7 powered handheld PC just out of curiosity, and a tweaked medium quality at 1600p is okay. 800p is fuzzier but even smoother in terms of frame rate.

Basically just drop stuff one by one until you get a setting you like. In spite of graphical upgrades and the final nail in the coffin of the ALM checkbox, you can still run SL acceptably on some spectacularly low end hardware, if you're prepared to not run ultra.

[BriannaLovey]

5 minutes ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

That draw distance is crazy anywhere outside of special cases. Even the Ultra preset only sets it to 256m for a reason. If you're in a club, you might find that 64 or even 32m is just fine, and in a viewer like Firestorm, there are quick and easy ways of raising and lowering draw distance without going to the main preferences window.

Also as mentioned, turn mirrors off. Screen Space Reflections are broken with llWater currently, so you might as well turn that off. Drop shadows to minimum or none, which is the frame rate hog with previous not-PBR viewers anyway. ALM was never the problem, shadows were.

There is no reason an Xe96EU iGPU cannot run Second Life when sensibly set. I've been using that exact setup on an 1165G7 powered handheld PC just out of curiosity, and a tweaked medium quality at 1600p is okay. 800p is fuzzier but even smoother in terms of frame rate.

Basically just drop stuff one by one until you get a setting you like. In spite of graphical upgrades and the final nail in the coffin of the ALM checkbox, you can still run SL acceptably on some spectacularly low end hardware, if you're prepared to not run ultra.

I have such a big itch to recommend [redacted viewer] to people in this situation, but I will not. I suppose it is better for people to learn to find out how to mitigate problems themselves.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

On 6/22/2024 at 4:22 AM, RicDelMoro said:

My experience with EEP : I made some very simple skies and I use them everywhere I go. With PBR I try to deactivate the maximum of features as possible.
I hated all these arrogant changes that force us to buy stronger computers. With the PBR it is worse, it puts more strain on the machine and socialization is becoming unfeasible.
Users who like simple things like driving and doing some roleplaying in door don't care at all about these "improvements" that LL introduced.
If you're the type of guy who goes out to buy a new computer every time Lindelab's mood changes, congratulations, but not me, I'm a normal person who plays just for fun and I have thousands of other leisure options on the Web.
As a result of these beautiful news,my gameplay has deteriorated,caused an effect opposite to that desired by LL. It's sad to say, but currently I avoid places with more people and very complex landscapes, I've been playing in a kind of "survival mode". I know if I step outside my box my PC will overheat or crash. And the time I spend online in SL has decreased. I keep logging into SL out of sheer stubbornness, even though my rational side is saying: "go do something else"...This is just my opinion, if you are happy with all these changes tell us here.
 

My laptop is about 6 years old. It handles SL fine.  It’s Alienware though.. 
 You can not expect to run SL on a Black Friday 299.00 laptop… 

Edited June 24 by SpiritSparrow Skydancer

[RicDelMoro]

I want to invite you all to a new type of metaverse, it will be like this:
I'm going to provide some crude, poorly finished avatars. I will also give...I mean sell... some land that will have nothing, you will must create everything from scratch. And the sky and water will be a big mess, everyone must configure it as they want. The viewer will also be poorly made and raw, because I'm actually a nice guy, I want to give intelligent people the opportunity to show that they can do something better. And when I want, I'll make some changes, explaining as little as possible, because you are perceptive and smart people. Please see this kind of emptiness as an advantage, because you can create almost everything, and possibly you will become rich, because I will allow you to sell your creations, of course I will charge a "small" fee, but that's irrelevant... How about ? Who wants to participate ?

                          ( pretends that some time passes and an employee arrives with a warning ) 

Oops, someone came to tell me  this type of metaverse already exists...and it's not correct I spam here... damn, I have to cancel the invitation...sorry...

Edited June 24 by RicDelMoro

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 hour ago, RicDelMoro said:

I want to invite you all to a new type of metaverse, it will be like this:
I'm going to provide some crude, poorly finished avatars. I will also give...I mean sell... some land that will have nothing, you will must create everything from scratch. And the sky and water will be a big mess, everyone must configure it as they want. The viewer will also be poorly made and raw, because I'm actually a nice guy, I want to give intelligent people the opportunity to show that they can do something better. And when I want, I'll make some changes, explaining as little as possible, because you are perceptive and smart people. Please see this kind of emptiness as an advantage, because you can create almost everything, and possibly you will become rich, because I will allow you to sell your creations, of course I will charge a "small" fee, but that's irrelevant... How about ? Who wants to participate ?

                          ( pretends that some time passes and an employee arrives with a warning ) 

Oops, someone came to tell me  this type of metaverse already exists...and it's not correct I spam here... damn, I have to cancel the invitation...sorry...

Well you're describing pretty much exactly what LL promised (and delivered on) when SL was first launched, what's your point?

[Starberry Passion]

Nothing about PBR or anything has changed the way I play, still feels the same to be honest.

[Dorientje Woller]

1 hour ago, RicDelMoro said:

I want to invite you all to a new type of metaverse, it will be like this:
I'm going to provide some crude, poorly finished avatars. I will also give...I mean sell... some land that will have nothing, you will must create everything from scratch. And the sky and water will be a big mess, everyone must configure it as they want. The viewer will also be poorly made and raw, because I'm actually a nice guy, I want to give intelligent people the opportunity to show that they can do something better. And when I want, I'll make some changes, explaining as little as possible, because you are perceptive and smart people. Please see this kind of emptiness as an advantage, because you can create almost everything, and possibly you will become rich, because I will allow you to sell your creations, of course I will charge a "small" fee, but that's irrelevant... How about ? Who wants to participate ?
 

Talking about the failed attempt of Zuckerberg, corretion: half *ssed attempt?

Edited June 24 by Dorientje Woller

[Thecla]

11 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

THAT fraudulent claim is a "must be on drugs" statement if ever I heard one.

SL hasn't "lagged for years" because some people can't afford a PC as expensive as yours, they are not "holding you back" or any other fact free over-entitled hardware-snob BS.

 

A gaming industry survey, carried out earlier THIS year, apparently revealed that 60% of all gamer play time hours, were on games OVER 6 years old. Gameplay on games released in 2023 was a tiny fraction of that.

 

The "games released in the last 5 years argument ignores the fact that said games get played less, and older games with "holding my expensive PC back" graphics are MORE popular.

Whether it's BECAUSE people can't afford a new PC is beside the point. SL has, relatively speaking, put put fairly low demands on users' computers, within the bounds of what is is, which is a world where you're constantly downloading unfamiliar content (as opposed to a world/game where content is static and planned). Whether it's because of scant development resources, investment in existing assets, or whatever, the point remains. SL has been pretty accommodating to older hardware.

As for your survey info, that factoid reveals nothing about WHY that percentage of older games remains popular, nor whether they have been updated since they were RELEASED. Counter Strike, Half-Life, Battlefield, Halo, Fortnite, LoL, GTA. were all released many years ago and remain hugely popular. Counter Strike was released BEFORE SL was even created, back in 1998...it's not the same game as when it was released, an none of the others are either.

Just because I called the OP a whining cynic for complaining that progress has made his SL more difficult does not make me a snob. Where does one draw the line on what hardware should be good enough? Is the OP the standard barer for this? How about Windows 98 on 286? Should SL run on that? Who decides?

[discussionbot]

On 6/22/2024 at 9:44 PM, Istelathis said:

This may be an option for some of you looking to upgrade your computer, but don't have the money handy.  Look for a place that buys yer plasma, where I live there is usually a bonus for the first month.  I get $800, for I think it is about 8 donations, with being a new "donor".  I have setup my first session for next week.

 

[Neremyn]

Every time we get something new and progress there are some people who complain that they have to buy a new computer. LL's already advancing slow. I guess we need to be in pre-mesh era so YOU can be happy?

Last time an upgrade was needed was when mesh was introduced.

Your chair and sofa wears out, your car breaks down, your smartphone becomes unusable. You replace with something new and better.

You said you have "thousands of other leisure options on the Web" - then please don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[AmeliaJ08]

1 hour ago, Thecla said:

Whether it's BECAUSE people can't afford a new PC is beside the point. SL has, relatively speaking, put put fairly low demands on users' computers, within the bounds of what is is, which is a world where you're constantly downloading unfamiliar content (as opposed to a world/game where content is static and planned). Whether it's because of scant development resources, investment in existing assets, or whatever, the point remains. SL has been pretty accommodating to older hardware.

As for your survey info, that factoid reveals nothing about WHY that percentage of older games remains popular, nor whether they have been updated since they were RELEASED. Counter Strike, Half-Life, Battlefield, Halo, Fortnite, LoL, GTA. were all released many years ago and remain hugely popular. Counter Strike was released BEFORE SL was even created, back in 1998...it's not the same game as when it was released, an none of the others are either.

Just because I called the OP a whining cynic for complaining that progress has made his SL more difficult does not make me a snob. Where does one draw the line on what hardware should be good enough? Is the OP the standard barer for this? How about Windows 98 on 286? Should SL run on that? Who decides?

Weirdest thing about the whole argument is that SL has always had pretty high requirements. Like it did in 2004 when it required a dedicated GPU... and then the period when maybe that wasn't strictly true thanks to improvements/the very existence of integrated GPU's came to an end in 2014 when ALM was introduced and as far as I know Intel never managed to produce a UHD (or HD, I guess) series integrated GPU that was strong enough to cope with that.

Now there definitely an argument that SL misused the hardware available to it, it definitely did not utilize anything particularly well up until very recently. Maybe there was enough juice in that little UHD 630 to run ALM (probably is) but it's irrelevant really, it didn't and it couldn't.

I think maybe there's some revisionism happening where people kinda forget about the expense of keeping up to date, maybe disabling ALM and running on integrated GPUs for the past decade was an acceptable compromise for a large group of people as well. That era has come to a close though and just like in 2004 (or whatever) SL requires a dedicated GPU.

 

Edited June 24 by AmeliaJ08

[Thecla]

16 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Weirdest thing about the whole argument is that SL has always had pretty high requirements. Like it did in 2004 when it required a dedicated GPU... and then the period when maybe that wasn't strictly true thanks to improvements/the very existence of integrated GPU's came to an end in 2014 when ALM was introduced and as far as I know Intel never managed to produce a UHD (or HD, I guess) series integrated GPU that was strong enough to cope with that.

Now there definitely an argument that SL misused the hardware available to it, it definitely did not utilize anything particularly well up until very recently. Maybe there was enough juice in that little UHD 630 to run ALM (probably is) but it's irrelevant really, it didn't and it couldn't.

I think maybe there's some revisionism happening where people kinda forget about the expense of keeping up to date, maybe disabling ALM and running on integrated GPUs for the past decade was an acceptable compromise for a large group of people as well. That era has come to a close though and just like in 2004 (or whatever) SL requires a dedicated GPU.

 

I was on an aging (six years old when it was retired) Mac laptop until about a year ago and SL worked fine. Did it scream along? No not at all. Could I run SL with everything cranked up? No, certainly not.

As for "pretty high requirements" that's just not accurate, despite being a relative, subjective claim. If you could use SL on a cheap business laptop on hotel wifi, that's not high requirements. And I did that for many years, including in 2004. And trust me, my Dell POS did NOT have a dedicated GPU.

Edited June 24 by Thecla

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

On 6/22/2024 at 9:44 PM, Istelathis said:

This may be an option for some of you looking to upgrade your computer, but don't have the money handy.  Look for a place that buys yer plasma, where I live there is usually a bonus for the first month.  I get $800, for I think it is about 8 donations, with being a new "donor".  I have setup my first session for next week.

Nice!

I met some random guy with horns and a tail at a crossroads on the way home from work the other night.  He told me he'd give me a new pc for my soles ... I could use a new pair of shoes anyway so I figure "hey, what could go wrong?!"

[Paul Hexem]

44 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Weirdest thing about the whole argument is that SL has always had pretty high requirements. Like it did in 2004 when it required a dedicated GPU... and then the period when maybe that wasn't strictly true thanks to improvements/the very existence of integrated GPU's came to an end in 2014 when ALM was introduced and as far as I know Intel never managed to produce a UHD (or HD, I guess) series integrated GPU that was strong enough to cope with that.

Now there definitely an argument that SL misused the hardware available to it, it definitely did not utilize anything particularly well up until very recently. Maybe there was enough juice in that little UHD 630 to run ALM (probably is) but it's irrelevant really, it didn't and it couldn't.

I think maybe there's some revisionism happening where people kinda forget about the expense of keeping up to date, maybe disabling ALM and running on integrated GPUs for the past decade was an acceptable compromise for a large group of people as well. That era has come to a close though and just like in 2004 (or whatever) SL requires a dedicated GPU.

 

 

28 minutes ago, Thecla said:

I was on an aging (six years old when it was retired) Mac laptop until about a year ago and SL worked fine. Did it scream along? No not at all. Could I run SL with everything cranked up? No, certainly not.

As for "pretty high requirements" that's just not accurate, despite being a relative, subjective claim. If you could use SL on a cheap business laptop on hotel wifi, that's not high requirements. And I did that for many years, including in 2004. And trust me, my Dell POS did NOT have a dedicated GPU.

SL, a PC game, has always required a gaming PC to run well. That it ran at all on other machines was sort of a miracle, but that was never the intent, since a lot had to be disabled to make it work. The whole "not a game" mentality really misled a lot of people's expectations.

PBR is a reality check.