Lindens Statements from Governance Meeting

[Kathlen Onyx]

10 minutes ago, alanastar11232022 said:

she is 100% 18  

Not to my eyes and I guarantee you many more eyes than mine.

[Stephanie Misfit]

17 minutes ago, alanastar11232022 said:

she is 100% 18  

And we have heard that argument from a lot of other people who have childlike avatars, too. Let's see how well, "But my avatar is 18 plus" holds up when the ARs start flooding in. And in your case, you have a very young looking avatar who is wearing a diaper and a pacifier, things that are absolutely associated with children. I don't know how you could think that the new TOS does not apply to you.

[Rolig Loon]

20 minutes ago, alanastar11232022 said:

but yeah  every thing is up to the   people that own the game ..

Yes, and that really is the bottom line. If you read the threads that are running in the forum today, you'll see that people agree it's sometimes hard to tell whether an avatar is representing someone over 18.  When there's a doubt, all anyone can do is submit an AR and have Governance decide.  They have the final say.  In the end, it really doesn't matter that you say your avatar is over 18.  If Governance says she isn't, and you are in an Adult area or engaging in sexual activity, you'll be violating the TOS.

[Frankie Antonioni]

Ok, I just did a lot of reading. I do think it is great that child avatars can engage in combat. But can child avatars play Zyngo?  Why not have the combat done in PG sims?

There is something I have been wondering about furries. Why don't they dress up as Planet of the Apes? I even searched places, and there are none for Planet of the Apes. But theres a bunch for Star Wars. 

 

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 minute ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

Ok, I just did a lot of reading. I do think it is great that child avatars can engage in combat.

 

Am I missing something. Where does it say Child Avatars are able to engage in combat?

[Rolig Loon]

Just now, Frankie Antonioni said:

Why don't they dress up as Planet of the Apes? I even searched places, and there are none for Planet of the Apes.

There's nothing stopping you from getting a bunch of apes together and doing it.  Give it a shot.  

[Frankie Antonioni]

Just now, Kathlen Onyx said:

Am I missing something. Where does it say Child Avatars are able to engage in combat?

Scylla Rhiadra said this in the first page.

=Also someone asking that "extreme violence" be now permitted on Moderate regions so that kids can participate in combat RP. Which I'd sure as hell fight. And also, kids in gory, violent combat RP? WTF?=

So that tells me that child avatars can now engage in combat.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

43 minutes ago, alanastar11232022 said:

she is 100% 18  

It's not us you'd have to convince, if someone were to AR you.. It will be LL and what they see..

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

Scylla Rhiadra said this in the first page.

=Also someone asking that "extreme violence" be now permitted on Moderate regions so that kids can participate in combat RP. Which I'd sure as hell fight. And also, kids in gory, violent combat RP? WTF?=

So that tells me that child avatars can now engage in combat.

 

It was an ask, not a change in policy.

The point is that child avatars were able to engage in violent RP ("combat RP") of the sort permitted only on Adult regions (it falls under representations of "extreme violence," which the rating system limits to Adult), but will no longer be able to because of the new restrictions.

The request was that "extreme violence" now be permitted on Moderate regions so that child avatars could still do combat RP.

Which would have the effect of opening up "Moderate" to other forms of extreme violence, such as torture RP.

It's a terrible idea. And it won't happen.

[Persephone Emerald]

56 minutes ago, alanastar11232022 said:

so my adult avitar  as along as i am prosenting as such adult .....  even if the rp  is  mentaly  not phycialy   as a adult baby  can still walk around in my diaper and paci without   it breaking tos 
https://gyazo.com/be780fb8ec0faa6eb6b74dfe4bcf85d2

Firestorm-Releasex64 6.6.17.70368 - alanastar11232022 (gyazo.com)

Firestorm-Releasex64 6.6.17.70368 - alanastar11232022 (gyazo.com) 

how can u look at these pictures and think she kid like  breast and  cleavage  and  tall and  adults features though and though  i dont understand how  people  just  auto see   the paci and the  diapers that are  on mp  and tailerd and  says  it is for adult avitars as  a kid  assoted  thing 

Judging from the picture alone, if this avatar were in an Adult region or acting sexual, I think it would be rightfully ARed. To me this looks like someone deliberately. pushing the line between Adult and Child. If she were not wearing diapers and a pacifier, I'd probably think she was just trying to look anime-cute. 

YMMV

[MoiraKathleen]

47 minutes ago, alanastar11232022 said:

there are thounds  of   us in this comunity that is  trying to get this answerrd 

As far as whether the ABDD or DDBG roleplay is impacted by the TOS changes, you could enter a Support Ticket asking that about those types of RP. 

I think it will become more important going forwad, to make sure that all participants clearly look 18 or over (and not in the "is she/he 17 or 18" grey area).

[Frankie Antonioni]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It was an ask, not a change in policy.

The point is that child avatars were able to engage in violent RP ("combat RP") of the sort permitted only on Adult regions (it falls under representations of "extreme violence," which the rating system limits to Adult), but will no longer be able to because of the new restrictions.

The request was that "extreme violence" now be permitted on Moderate regions so that child avatars could still do combat RP.

Which would have the effect of opening up "Moderate" to other forms of extreme violence, such as torture RP.

It's a terrible idea. And it won't happen.

I don't think it should be any thing like torture. I think it should be just combat. And I think they should be able to do that in PG sims. Just not real graphic. So if they want to do a pirate battle, historical battle, or urban combat, then they should.

Just not torture, or anything else very graphic.

[Persephone Emerald]

13 hours ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Am I missing something. Where does it say Child Avatars are able to engage in combat?

There is nothing in the TOS that says they *can't* engage in combat, therefore they can.

What has changed is that they may not go into Adult regions, and extreme graphic violence is only allowed on Adult regions. To my mind this doesn't apply to most combat.

I've watched ancient world combat and gladiatorial combat. There is sometimes blood, but I haven't seen torture, cannibalism, or body parts getting hacked off in Moderate sims. I've seen devices that electrocute or behead avatars in Moderate sims, but they were part of games or were "unlucky chairs" giving out prizes. 

Edited May 11 by Persephone Emerald
Spelling typo

[Kathlen Onyx]

19 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Judging from the picture alone, if this avatar were in an Adult region or acting sexual, I think it would be rightfully ARed. To me this looks like someone deliberately. pushing the line between Adult and Child. If she were not wearing diapers and a pacifier, I'd probably think she was just trying to look anime-cute. 

YMMV

Even if she wasn't wearing the diaper and pacifier she clearly looks under 18.

[Persephone Emerald]

41 minutes ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

Ok, I just did a lot of reading. I do think it is great that child avatars can engage in combat. But can child avatars play Zyngo?  Why not have the combat done in PG sims?

There is something I have been wondering about furries. Why don't they dress up as Planet of the Apes? I even searched places, and there are none for Planet of the Apes. But theres a bunch for Star Wars. 

Star Wars type sims (which might not be actually cannon) allow for all kinds of furries to RP as alien races. Maybe there just aren't that many furries that want to present as apes? I think furries tend to be very particular about what kind of animal they feel like and want to express (probably similar to how therians express themselves).

[Coffee Pancake]

17 minutes ago, MoiraKathleen said:

As far as whether the ABDD or DDBG roleplay is impacted by the TOS changes, you could enter a Support Ticket asking that about those types of RP.

There is an avatar death trap here that's affected a few people I knew well.

Combine ABDL with a desire to look and talk cute, and it's game over. ABDL Baby girls are high risk.

The only way I have known this to be survivable long term is to combine the it with furry or shiny, or shiny furry and importantly, aim for cute as in pokemon, not baby girl.

[Polenth Yue]

Just now, Frankie Antonioni said:

I don't think it should be any thing like torture. I think it should be just combat. And I think they should be able to do that in PG sims. Just not real graphic. So if they want to do a pirate battle, historical battle, or urban combat, then they should.

Just not torture, or anything else very graphic.

Adult content is "sexually explicit, intensely violent, or depicts illicit drug use" according to the rules. A lot of simulated combat is not actually intensely violent. You can play a game of laser tag, have your epic lightsaber duel, or pretend to be a pirate, as long as it doesn't get too graphic and realistic.

The person complaining had basically been breaking the rules all along. A child avatar should not have been on an adult combat region of that nature. It actually wouldn't matter if moderate land did allow that level of violence, as a child avatar shouldn't go near it. The rules about violence haven't changed in this refresh.

[Persephone Emerald]

12 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Even if she wasn't wearing the diaper and pacifier she clearly looks under 18.

I tend to view that much boobage as adult. It's a subjective assessment. YMMV

I realize I'm contradicting myself. I think she looks like a young adult, 16+, pretending to be much younger. I probably wouldn't AR her myself in most situations, but she makes me uneasy. It might just be an uncanny valley reaction because she makes me feel conflicted about whether she's supposed to be "innocent" or not.

Edited May 11 by Persephone Emerald

[Kathlen Onyx]

You could put 

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I tend to view that much boobage as adult. It's a subjective assessment. YMMV

You could put boobs on  a toddler....still makes them a toddler.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, alanastar11232022 said:

https://gyazo.com/be780fb8ec0faa6eb6b74dfe4bcf85d2

Firestorm-Releasex64 6.6.17.70368 - alanastar11232022 (gyazo.com)

Firestorm-Releasex64 6.6.17.70368 - alanastar11232022 (gyazo.com) 

Very cute look. I think I can even duplicate it other then the diapers but I wouldn't dream of getting away with it in an adult region or even risk it in moderate one.

Edited May 11 by Arielle Popstar

[Coffee Pancake]

23 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

There is nothing on the TOS that says they *can't* engage in combat, therefore they can.

BUTTT .. and it's a huge peachy butt.

The ToS describes A rated violence in such a way as to include almost all deceptions of weaponized violence. Even cartoon violence is covered. Yes, the intent was to contain graphic gore, torture, dolcett and all that evil. But as with everything LL, the wording is broad and sloppy.

Chopping limbs off with a lightsaber - very graphic.

Swords .. just as graphic, maybe more because blood.

Guns ... very graphic, etc etc.

This has made RP regions that include combat to set up on A land as the "safer" option.

Role-players disagreeing with moderators and GM's and then using the abuse report system to get them banned also is totally a thing, so not having "graphic violence" as something that can be used against them is a good idea.

As with everything forums .. this specific detail of the ToS is a nice way of saying "tell me you don't combat RP without saying you don't combat RP".

 

edit - Just to spell this out in terms some will be familiar with - The Mandalorian and Grogu can not exist in the same RP space and do their respective things.

Edited May 11 by Coffee Pancake

[Persephone Emerald]

3 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

While I broadly agree with the majority of your post, I'm not sure there is a need to remove nipples from prepubscent avatars. By removing them, you're essentially saying that there is something sexual and wrong about them, which could not be further from the truth since there is nothing remotely sexual about nipples on a young child. It's redundant anyway since the modesty layer would cover them. By adding that requirement, you may actually be breaking more content. 

Personally, I don't see anything sexual about nipples unless they're in a state of sexual arousal. I think female avatars and pictures of women should not have different rules than male avatars and pictures. Most people in the US ( including LL) view adult, female breasts as being sexual, however. 

I want young child avatars to be treated the same, no matter their gender. If the only way to do that is for both male and female babies and young children to not show nipples, then I'd rather they just not be drawn on the skin to begin with. Yes, it would look weird, but it would be equally weird for both boys and girls. They can both wear whatever kind of top they wish too - a T-shirt, a halter top, a bikini top, or even a bib on a baby.

Edited May 11 by Persephone Emerald

[CaerolleClaudel]

28 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I tend to view that much boobage as adult. It's a subjective assessment. YMMV

I realize I'm contradicting myself. I think she looks like a young adult, 16+, pretending to be much younger. I probably wouldn't AR her myself in most situations, but she makes me uneasy. It might just be an uncanny valley reaction because she makes me feel conflicted about whether she's supposed to be "innocent" or not.

The face is what I was going by, personally. Seems <18 by far. I see a highly sexualized girl, not a woman. But I am really sensitive to sexualization of minors so I may be overreacting.

[Persephone Emerald]

Btw, nipples are an erogenous zone for both women and men. So is the neck, the thigh, the small of the back, the waist, feet and hands, so one shouldn't use that as an argument for covering them. I think what it really comes down too is that heterosexual men find female breasts arousing. But if they're being used to nurse a baby or just out while sunbathing, they are not inherently sexual. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

I don't think it should be any thing like torture. I think it should be just combat. And I think they should be able to do that in PG sims. Just not real graphic. So if they want to do a pirate battle, historical battle, or urban combat, then they should.

Just not torture, or anything else very graphic.

Shows like The Mandelorian, Star Wars, Star Trek, and even Lord of the Rings all tend to fall roughly within the "PG" range for the good reason that, while there is violence, it is not graphic (or, in most cases, particularly extreme).

For comparison, consider Game of Thrones, which features extremely graphic violence, frequently intended to shock (and titillate).

The descriptions of "Adult" and "Moderate" ratings do not explicitly mention combat RP, because the issue isn't so much "violence," which both can feature, as "extreme violence," which is not permitted in "Moderate."

I don't doubt that many combat RP regions are "Adult" just to be on the safe side, as Coffee suggests -- but I really don't think there is any reason why combat of the sort that is characteristic of Star Wars, The Mandelorian, etc., should not be allowable on Moderate regions. It's the kind of stuff that you get in GOT or the new series based on Fallout that should be restricted to Adult because there the violence is much more extreme, explicit, graphic, and part of the narrative.

There's a real danger in sort of blurring the lines here -- "swords and light sabers are extreme violence" -- because it elides very real distinctions between how people respond to the depictions of violence. Somebody being run through with a sword, with a little splash of blood, is quite different from someone being graphically disemboweled by one.

@Frankie Antonelli, I hope that this explains my objections? I don't think combat RP should be, or indeed by the rules IS restricted to Adult. I think THAT depends on the way in which the combat is depicted. But please feel free to respond here, or in-world, if you want to talk about this more. I get that combat RP is important to some child avatars, but we can't simply collapse the rating system to accommodate that. I think instead we need to think carefully about what we mean by "combat" and "extreme violence."

Edited May 11 by Scylla Rhiadra