So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Persephone Emerald]

28 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

There's a lot of assumption and guessing in this, though. I personally don't think the "I'm 18, yo" profile disclaimers mean much of anything at all. If someone were to snap a photo of said avatar doing something very against the rules and it gets posted around the web or whatever, their profile disclaimer won't be making it into the shot. Still a bad look.

I think, just for clarity's sake, it's better if LL notes in the TOS or FAQ if the modesty rules are only for the under 12 crowd or includes the 13+, as well. I see no reason why that can't be made crystal clear for us.

Oh and clubs on moderate land are risky. LL is advising child (again, does this include older teen?) avatars change to non-child or non-human avatars just to SHOP on moderate land. No way would I risk taking one into a nightclub.

We've been though this argument over and over again in this thread. The fact remains that it's impossible to distinguish a 16 year old avatar from an 18 year old avatar. Thus, Governance is going to have to rely on evidence to make a distinction.

1. Is the user wearing a mesh body generally recognized as for an adult or a child avatar?

2. Does their profile identify them as a child avatar?

3. Did they identify themself as a child in text, either publically or in IMs?

4. Were they in an environment generally used by adult or child avatars?

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

2 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

True story, and a sad one.

One day in SSL, 20 odd people were in a club, enjoying the DJ's set, when a Concerned Vigilante Citizen Crusader walked along one of the LLDWP's strips of tarmac textured prim waste, that some call "roads".

He spots 20 odd green dots in the sky on the region next door, and deciids to do his part to make SL better by AR'ing all the "filthy bots.

Teleporting into the club, he's horrified to find actual people having a good time, so he AR's them all anyway.

Then he AR's the DJ for using a no-lose sploder to GIVE AWAY THEIR OWN MONEY to the audience.

He get's punted by the club owner.

Then one of the audience asks the DJ in an IM if they will be ok after being AR'd for having a no lose sploder.

The DJ then did something really stupid.

"Sure, II sspoke to MadeUp Linden and he said they don't ban you for a sploder"

 

Thing is, an AR had been filed, and that means somebody WILL check the chat and IM logs for the accused.

"Impersonating an LL Staff member", instant permaban for the DJ, and their several alts.

Gone, no coming back from that ever.

 

So, no to @Luna Bliss or anyone else thinking it's "safe" to engage in illegal activity in an IM. If Governance has ANY reason to check you, say some fool AR's you for standing still for 390 mins, obviously a "filthy bot", they will see that in the logs and never mind how minor your reported offence was, your accounts are toast.

 

Okay, just to make it clear my example was meant as humorous since my reference to "roleplaying with themselves" was meant to mean that they weren't roleplaying with each other in any way and were simply laying on separate beds quietly and thinking.  As all-powerful as LL may be in the context of SL, they're still hardly the thought police after all.

Your example does illustrate just how easily a false AR can ruin someones day though.  Which is what I suspect a lot of people here are most concerned about.

[Sammy Huntsman]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

No one said it that I can recall.  It's an assumption.  I dislike avatars who are of questionable age in adult sex regions.  Anywhere else, I couldn't care less.    Not because of their height or shape but usually the accompanying accessories.  Taken together, while some may think it's just cute, it does appear to many to be too close to being underage.   Short and slim is perfectly fine and I see it all the time.  Not an issue.  Put a face that appears ambiguous as to age, braces, that AO that makes them look like a shy child hiding behind mommy's back?  Hmm

So adults can't wear braces and act shy? I mean I have said before, my face is very ambiguous IRL, and as I also said before. I get IDed a lot for it. So why is all that a problem, humans can come in all different shapes and sizes and looks. Why can't we treat SL avatars, in that same idea? 

[Starberry Passion]

You've gotten to a point where many have to say "I'm 18" in their profile.

then someone takes it up a notch to tell them "You're lying, you don't look 18 to ME. people who put this 18 year old must be ageplaying."

Even though to someone else they look 20, 24, 27, 18, and so on.

and then you go on and you take photos of them, pass it around the internet, you don't include their profile and now everyone thinks they're a child, when they see themselves as an adult.

How does that look to people looking to join into second life?

What kind of message does that send to people who are actually these things, have faced harassment, have been bullied and they're like "I want to go someplace I can be myself, love myself." then they run into the same crap in their actual life if it applies to them.

You can't even say you're an adult because someone will just take a photo of you with someone 8 ft tall because why not? To frame you as being a child that is saying "I'm an adult, Identify as an adult, my mind body and soul is an adult" And because they have a cute look, you're sending this message out. That is some of the most underhanded f'ed up stuff.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Starberry Passion said:

You've gotten to a point where many have to say "I'm 18" in their profile.

then someone takes it up a notch to tell them "You're lying, you don't look 18 to ME. people who put this 18 year old must be ageplaying."

Even though to someone else they look 20, 24, 27, 18, and so on.

and then you go on and you take photos of them, pass it around the internet, you don't include their profile and now everyone thinks they're a child, when they see themselves as an adult.

How does that look to people looking to join into second life?

What kind of message does that send to people who are actually these things, have faced harassment, have been bullied and they're like "I want to go someplace I can be myself, love myself." then they run into the same crap in their actual life if it applies to them.

You can't even say you're an adult because someone will just take a photo of you with someone 8 ft tall because why not? To frame you as being a child that is saying "I'm an adult, Identify as an adult, my mind body and soul is an adult" And because they have a cute look, you're sending this message out. That is some of the most underhanded f'ed up stuff.

And it's gotten to the point, where LL is working on age verification for it's users. Just to quell the fear of the masses. 

[Coffee Pancake]

If you don’t look like something Beef McThickNeck can take to bed without guilt. You’re at risk of fending of abuse reports. That’s has always been the case, only now it’s easier for them to stick. 

[ErwinVonVlotho]

1 minute ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

So adults can't wear braces and act shy? I mean I have said before, my face is very ambiguous IRL, and as I also said before. I get IDed a lot for it. So why is all that a problem, humans can come in all different shapes and sizes and looks. Why can't we treat SL avatars, in that same idea? 

Because an 18-year-old human who looks 16 can walk into the Weightlifter's Arms, show their ID and legally buy a pint of beer because they are in fact legally allowed to do so. An avatar who looks 16 is a child avatar and nothing they do, except editing themselves to look older, will make it legal for them to do adult things.

[Starberry Passion]

1 minute ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

So adults can't wear braces and act shy? I mean I have said before, my face is very ambiguous IRL, and as I also said before. I get IDed a lot for it. So why is all that a problem, humans can come in all different shapes and sizes and looks. Why can't we treat SL avatars, in that same idea? 

Yeah, Adults wear braces,

one example of how an adult might possibly wear braces: some families can't afford braces for their kids and some turn into adults and now they can afford braces and now they can afford to fix their teeth.

Another example, they want to improve their smile, feel better about themselves and improve their looks when they smile.

[Qie Niangao]

Romeo is 16 and Juliet is 13, hmmm
A post-sex scene but no full nudity
Tell the troupe to strap on those modesty panels and carry on!

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

If you don’t look like something Beef McThickNeck can take to bed without guilt

Wait, there's still Gorean Masters left in SL? AND they have IQ's high enough to feel guilt?

Who knew?

[Codex Alpha]

7 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

So adults can't wear braces and act shy? I mean I have said before, my face is very ambiguous IRL, and as I also said before. I get IDed a lot for it. So why is all that a problem, humans can come in all different shapes and sizes and looks. Why can't we treat SL avatars, in that same idea? 

If a reasonable person would look at the features of your avatar and consider it underage, we would recommend not engaging in adult activities on that account. Apart from considering the avatar's appearance, the team considers various other factors, such as the purpose for which the avatar is being used.

Child Avatar FAQ: Linden Lab

[Rowan Amore]

8 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

So adults can't wear braces and act shy? I mean I have said before, my face is very ambiguous IRL, and as I also said before. I get IDed a lot for it. So why is all that a problem, humans can come in all different shapes and sizes and looks. Why can't we treat SL avatars, in that same idea? 

Sure, adults can all do that but it's the entire package that makes them appear underage.  How one looks in RL has no bearing on SL.  That can be debated until the cows come home.  If you've ever gone to Lolita's Dreams or whatever that place was called, you'd see avatars that basically looked like 13 yr olds to anyone.  They all "RPed as over 18".    Mmhm.. sure.  

Those are the ones that make people question all the others.  It's been going on since I started SL.  It's not going to change much now with the new rules.

People who keep saying it's because we (I) hate all short, thin, cutsie avatars are simply wrong.  I don't.  But we all know the ones who push the line are out there.  I've seen a lot of chubby avatars who are supposedly adults that do not look like one so it's not just slim.

LL will never define what exactly constitutes an child (under 18) avatar as it's subjective.  Always has been, always will be.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Starberry Passion said:

I am saying that this is how this looks to me. Everything that can potentially happen to someone who is just one of these bodies and are just slim, petite, short, don't have big breasts etc. "Someone thinks someone looks like a teen so they are at risk of losing their account." and the "I'm 18 years old" and then people taking photos discluding their info in their profile to prove they are a child with photos.

This looks like that to me.

Ohhh. Yeah, I dunno. My avatars are generally slim, sometimes flat-chested, and very, very tall. I'm mostly a fantasy avatar, sometimes horror/creature/undead/monster, occasionally furry/frog/dragon, and sometimes human male/female/nonbinary. I can't possibly begin to guess where people would place anything I create on the age scale, so I'm not even going to worry about that. I'm only on adult sims these days when shopping and if someone reallllyyyy thinks my undead lich queen looks underage because she's scrawny, her chest is flat, and she has no face at all to judge by, what can ya do, lol.

I don't personally think anything negative of flat/petite avatars, though, seeing as how I often pilot one and everyone is very short to me considering how I quite intentionally tower over people (just monster thangs).

[Alwin Alcott]

11 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

So adults can't wear braces and act shy? I mean I have said before, my face is very ambiguous IRL, and as I also said before. I get IDed a lot for it. So why is all that a problem, humans can come in all different shapes and sizes and looks. Why can't we treat SL avatars, in that same idea? 

yes for RL you'r right, but in this circumstance in SL it's only one click to get off the edge of doubt.

[diamond Marchant]

Where I Am After 250 Pages of Discussion

1. Only speculation as to why TOS was changed given that the triggering event was investigation and a verdict of "nothing to see here" was issued. The previous TOS seemed to cover  child-avatar issues.

2. Realization that this issue does not effect me directly as I have zero contact with whatever communities are being targeted.  I actually avoided BA5 events because they were advertised as "family friendly".

3. Realization that this issue could effect me if it escalates, as I am often in the company of (and appreciate) tinies, furries, animals, chimeras, anime, etc.

4. Remain interested in the part of the Linden post that concerns "making updates to our internal policies". This is why I started another thread where we can give input on the communications/relations between Lindens/Moles and residents. These polices will effect all of us, regardless of our RL age, avatar presentation or roleplay preferences.

[Tommy Linden]

Hello!

I come with some updates, and what will be the final comment on this thread before I close it out. I want you all to know that I personally have read every single post in this thread, and I appreciate that for the most part, everyone tried to keep it on topic, and as a productive conversation. I know many other Lindens have been doing their best to follow along on this thread as much as possible as well. I also want to give a thanks to Dyna and Quartz for helping to keep this thread on track and civil.

We have updated the FAQ, it now contains images that demonstrate what we expect the modesty layers to look like. In addition, at tomorrows Governance Office Hours we will have models there displaying the modesty layers. We hope this provides some additional clarification regarding our expectations around what the modesty layer should look like. We have also added questions to the FAQ that we felt would be beneficial after reading through everyones feedback both on the forums, and in tickets.

As for this thread, as I mentioned at the start of this post, the time has come to close it out. At this point, a lot of the discussion taking place in it does seem to be going in circles, with each person supporting their stance or opinion on matters and we want to avoid any further personal disputes and attacks that are starting to escalate. This does not mean we are no longer taking feedback into consideration. If we determine that more things are needed to be added to the FAQ, we will absoluately do so.

If you feel like you have more feedback to provide, you can always submit a support ticket, or if its a feature request, you can do so via our feedback portal https://feedback.secondlife.com/.

As always, for easy reference, here is the link to the FAQ: https://lindenlab.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/31000173097-child-avatar-faq