So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, Leslie Trihey said:

 

I didn't use the age detector. These are MY estimates. I'm using you to prove my point on how much effect that just even makeup layers can have on perceived age. Pictures 3 and 4 use the same head and body, but picture 4 looks "barely legal" at first glance.

Well, that's the point actually.  What YOU perceive as being +18 will be different than someone else's perception.  This is why I said if someone is consistently asked to leave an adult venue for looking too young, they're the ones who need to reassess their look IF they want to access that venue.  They also have the choice to not go there and keep whatever look they want.  No one is making them change.  The new rules don't really change this subjective aspect and no rule ever will. 

 

[Leslie Trihey]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

FYI: Except this thread, in general, mods don't review every post and your post is not likely to get deleted.

Mods also do not delete posts, or even threads, just because people ask them to. You can of course "report your own post and ask it to be deleted, " but you've changed it so really, deleting it is effort for someone at this point. Some people just change their post to a period (.) in these cases. 

Ah thank you. ♥ I am somewhat unfamiliar with this forums etiquette.

[Starberry Passion]

3 minutes ago, ValKalAstra said:

Uncertainty breeds paranoia breeds overcompensation - which is what's concerning about how this mess is developing. From my personal perspective, as a woman with a small avatar, there's apprehension that people will adjust their expectations towards more hyper avatars "just to be sure".

It's not like this apprehension is born out of nothing. At the height of the Kupra Flavour of the month, there were a lot of statements made on how Maitreya is really just a juvenile looking body and how certain lelutka heads are just bait. There's also the part where my character's bust is judged as small and petite in SL (frequent comment I got), at a size where I've got trouble getting bras big enough in swiss rl stores.

While I like to think that my avatar looks rather adult and mature, there were instances of people thinking otherwise and being very vocal about it. There was also some guy that tried to get me to roleplay as his younger sister, which creeped me out. So, why not change my avatar? Because it's an extension of myself. It's as tall as I can make it, while keeping the proportions, compared to the environment, without it feeling uncomfortable and alien. I've tried and the most I could and did add was twenty centimeters. Anything past that feels off.

Will I be in trouble, will I get kicked out of adult venues? Probably not. At least not often. However the uncertainty breeds paranoia in me too and in my case, the overcompensation is a freezing effect where I wonder if I should hold off on buying things on the Grid, if I should just go and do things other than SL, if I should put a stop to my pictures for now, until everything has calmed down again.

This threads and the way it's boiling up is pointing towards that being a good idea. Will I do so? Dunno, haven't decided yet - but I'm not looking forward to being critiqued and judged on my avatar because of the necessary nature of the fuzzy rules surrounding the issue and the paranoia bred from it.

And yah, I am aware of the irony that I mentioned a hundred pages ago I'd only make that one post as contribution but the mood is just really and notably turning in a direction I dislike.

Thank you for proving a lot of what I said

[Ceka Cianci]

I did my RL picture and it showed my age between 18 to STFU!!

[Leslie Trihey]

4 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

And now I know you're trolling.

As for the "makeup layers", both pictures of the same head and body are wearing the exact same lipstick and eyeshadow and eyeliner , no other makeup.

Only difference is the colour, blue and red for lippy and shadow..

 

 

Nope. If I saw picture 4 in-world at first glance I'd assume 19-21. Sorry, not sorry. Maybe instead of coping with "Your trolling" maybe you could instead put on that thinking cap and realize why some us are concerned.

[Starberry Passion]

2 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I did my RL picture and it showed my age between 18 to STFU!!

Have you asked others how old you look irl around you?

[Dorientje Woller]

3 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I did my RL picture and it showed my age between 18 to STFU!!

Photoshopped RL picture

[Ceka Cianci]

Just now, Starberry Passion said:

Have you asked others how old you look irl around you?

I was just kidding around with that post.. hehehe

 

 

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Photoshopped RL picture

I'm not even putting my RL picture in one of those things.. The darkweb will grab it  and finally have enough for a picture ID.. lol

[Sid Nagy]

So is there a final conclusion in sight by now?
Or do we need another 50 pages to post every possible avatar first to judge?

[Leslie Trihey]

Just now, Sid Nagy said:

So is there a final conclusion in sight by now?
Or do we need another 50 pages to post every possible avatar first to judge?

This is a contentious topic, it's not going away any time soon.

[Kathlen Onyx]

4 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I have an idea to "engage the community" to help with enforcement.

A group "sworn to protect child avatars" can be formed.  Think of them similar to the Hell's Angels, or "Nazi Hunters", or the vengeful group from the movie "Sleepers".  This group could ensure that Child avatars are "safe at all times'.  

As a bonus, the same group could help ensure that any Child avatar also did not "get into trouble" through any action!

We could call them "Big Brothers" (like the RL "Big Brothers and Sisters" organization).

"Thank you, Big Brother!"

* If you take this suggestion totally seriously, you have failed to detect basic satire and irony. I know some people will interpret this seriously and be upset by it. This caveat is for those people.

I finally figured out why I find your posts distasteful.  There is NO reason for this post to be in this thread.  It's simply posted for attention.  It makes fun of the new rules and dismisses legitimate concerns.  It's disrespectful and rude. 

I really do hope they come for the furry's next.

 

[Madi Melodious]

2 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Ok I have to admit, this is the first time I ever heard fictosexual before..

I'm just trying to keep my list up to date!! \o/

hehehe

I think we should roll it into the lexicon!  🤣

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, Leslie Trihey said:

Nope. If I saw picture 4 in-world at first glance I'd assume 19-21. Sorry, not sorry. Maybe instead of coping with "Your trolling" maybe you could instead put on that thinking cap and realize why some us are concerned.

Nope, see, the only difference is the COLOUR of the lipstick, the eyeshadow, and the skin.

Not "two different lipsticks"

same lipstick, different colour, same applier hud.

 

And you claim there's a 14 year difference between them

All that shows is that YOU, despite your !18 years in SL" can't tell one avatar from another.

Adding in your wonderfully fraudulent claim about anyone who wasn't a "7 ft kupra karen" having to live in fear, and the overall picture is of somebody who hasn't got a clue what she's talking about, and is just trying to muddy the waters to defend their "right" to visit A rated sims dressed as a 10 year old.

 

According to your apparently questionable opinion and that of your ally in this thread, picture 1 will be banned because under 7 ft tall, and small breasts, not a kupra,  picture two, under 7 ft tall and 'asian features' and not a kupra, picture 3, under 7 ft tall and not a kupra, and picture 4, under 7 ft tall, not a kupra, and ONLY 19.

 

And yet, I've walked around in these avatars, and NEVER been banned for being under 7 ft tall, not a kupra, or ONLY 19.

 

Experience Bias?

Yeah my experience says you are talking out of your ass, as a deliberate scaremongering tactic to try and get sympathy for 10 year olds on Adults Only regions.

 

[Flea Yatsenko]

30 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

There's no such thing in SSL.

 

If you have bot and ban powers on a parcel, you are an admin, also, if there is a more senior admin, they wouldn't need YOU as they could boot and ban by themselves.

 

The new ToS isn't about land owners banning. It's about being in a public place that's M or Adult, another resident thinking you are a child AV when you are not, then filing a report.

Two outcomes

1. LL bans the AV of someone who wasn't playing a child AV, someone is banned for something they weren't doing explicitly, only because two parties thought they were a child because they had braces or something

2. LL doesn't ban, then the resident who reported thinks they are still a child AV and probably starts to think things like "LL supports child avs in adult sims"

Honestly after reading some of this thread, half the problem is people who treat adult AVs like kids. And I don't mean "this AV looks under-age to me", I mean the pedos who are doing blatant ***** as adults trying to pick up someone who they want to treat as under age. And honestly that should be a reportable offense against the ToS.

And according to the new ToS, all someone has to do is think you are a child, see if you have adult bits attached, then they have a valid report left to LL to decide. I think you are kind of gaslighting people making this about land owners banning when it has nothing to do with land owners. Land owners have always been free to ban AVs based on height or whatever they want before the ToS changes.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

6 minutes ago, ValKalAstra said:

Will I be in trouble, will I get kicked out of adult venues? Probably not. At least not often. However the uncertainty breeds paranoia in me too and in my case, the overcompensation is a freezing effect where I wonder if I should hold off on buying things on the Grid, if I should just go and do things other than SL, if I should put a stop to my pictures for now, until everything has calmed down again.

This threads and the way it's boiling up is pointing towards that being a good idea. Will I do so? Dunno, haven't decided yet - but I'm not looking forward to being critiqued and judged on my avatar because of the necessary nature of the fuzzy rules surrounding the issue and the paranoia bred from it.

Thank you. This is exactly how I'm feeling as well. I've been asking myself if it's even worth it anymore when I can go just about anywhere else and not ever have to even think about issues such as this. I just want nothing to do with any of it. I've already pulled back quite a lot of my spending months ago (not due to this) - wouldn't take much more to bow out for good if things become more complicated.

[Vanity Fair]

10 hours ago, Sydelle Zanzibar said:

Most of us stick to our own areas, I think. 

I have often marvelled at just how SEGREGATED Second Life can be. It is most apparent when looking at furries vs. human avatars, but it also tends to happen with children vs. adults (except for family roleplay), dinkies vs. regular sized avatars, etc.  

Edited May 5 by Vanity Fair

[Starberry Passion]

6 minutes ago, Theresa Ravenheart said:

Everyone using the Detect age by photo site to test an avatars age should know that the site is seriously flawed. I tested it with my avatar, how I normally look (1) and myself aged with wrinkles (2). I added a lot of wrinkles and skin details to age myself and it only added 2 years!

It says my avatar is 21. Do I look like a 21 year old? I personally think that I look older than 21, but it's hard to put my finger on an exact age cause my avatar is a FICTIONAL person that does not exist. If I was holding a teddy bear, would people think that I am 17 or under all of the sudden? What if I am dressed in fetish gear, using an adult body, head and skin, at an adult BDSM sim, my owner has me on a leash, and I call him Daddy? Everything points to me being and looking like an adult, but could a simple pet name put myself or him in jeopardy? I see the child-like comments in the TOS/FAQ impacting many of us on the edge even thought we have adult avatars.

 

 

And now you are starting to understand that it is hard to tell because it is fictional. It doesn't exist. You look adult to me I would've guessed 27/28 years old but with a doll asthetic.

[Kathlen Onyx]

8 minutes ago, Theresa Ravenheart said:

Everyone using the Detect age by photo site to test an avatars age should know that the site is seriously flawed. I tested it with my avatar, how I normally look (image labeled #2) and myself aged with wrinkles (image labeled #1). I added a lot of wrinkles and skin details to age myself and it only added 2 years! My avatar height is 6.28 ft.

It says my avatar is 21. Do I look like a 21 year old? I personally think that I look older than 21, but it's hard to put my finger on an exact age cause my avatar is a FICTIONAL person that does not exist. If I was holding a teddy bear, would people think that I am 17 or under all of the sudden? What if I am dressed in fetish gear, using an adult body, head and skin, at an adult BDSM sim, my owner has me on a leash, and I call him Daddy? Everything points to me being, acting, and looking like an adult, but could a simple pet name put myself or him in jeopardy? I see the child-like comments in the TOS/FAQ impacting many of us on the edge even thought we have adult avatars.

 

 

To me...that looks like a 13 year old that talked her parents into getting her a breast enlargement.  Where are earth would you think that represents anyone older than 21?

Ya think maybe the site is taking into consideration the outfit, jewelry, etc you are wearing that in no way would any adult wear?

[Fionalein]

1 minute ago, Vanity Fair said:

I have often marvelled at just how SEGREGATED Second Life can be. It is most apparent when looking at furries vs. human avatars, but it also tends to happen with children vs. Adults (except for family roleplay), dinkies vs. regular sized avatars, etc.  

Become a cat and you'll feel like an out of place tourist everywhere. I walk most those circles and as you imply, most of them are completely ignorant of each other.

[Madi Melodious]

2 hours ago, Indy Melody said:

an avatar is speaking or acting like a child ("My Mommy says...").

Note: Merely having a childlike avatar does not violate this policy. It is not our intent to banish childlike avatars in and of themselves.

It appears to me that it covers a lot of the points being discussed in this forum topic.

Actually, it doesn't.  In 10 years, I've never spoken like a child avatar in that kind of manner.  In our estate "family" we do have a member that we refer to sometimes as "Mom" but it's more of title of respect than her being our actual SL mommy figure.    Basically, short of anything listed in the TOS, I basically treat my child avatar the exact same way I treat my adult alt.  

[Kathlen Onyx]

3 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

And now you are starting to understand that it is hard to tell because it is fictional. It doesn't exist. You look adult to me I would've guessed 27/28 years old but with a doll asthetic.

I think people see what they want to see. For instance, your avatar picture looks, to me, like you are 14.

[Leslie Trihey]

25 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Nope, see, the only difference is the COLOUR of the lipstick, the eyeshadow, and the skin.

Not "two different lipsticks"

same lipstick, different colour, same applier hud.

 

And you claim there's a 14 year difference between them

All that shows is that YOU, despite your !18 years in SL" can't tell one avatar from another.

Adding in your wonderfully fraudulent claim about anyone who wasn't a "7 ft kupra karen" having to live in fear, and the overall picture is of somebody who hasn't got a clue what she's talking about, and is just trying to muddy the waters to defend their "right" to visit A rated sims dressed as a 10 year old.

 

According to your apparently questionable opinion and that of your ally in this thread, picture 1 will be banned because under 7 ft tall, and small breasts, not a kupra,  picture two, under 7 ft tall and 'asian features' and not a kupra, picture 3, under 7 ft tall and not a kupra, and picture 4, under 7 ft tall, not a kupra, and ONLY 19.

 

And yet, I've walked around in these avatars, and NEVER been banned for being under 7 ft tall, not a kupra, or ONLY 19.

 

Experience Bias?

Yeah my experience says you are talking out of your ass, as a deliberate scaremongering tactic to try and get sympathy for 10 year olds on Adults Only regions.

 

Sweetie, I gave you an example of how easily perception can be incredibly skewed from person to person, and how a simple change can create a radical difference in perception. I don't know why this point is so hard for you to understand.

 

"Yeah my experience says you are talking out of your ass, as a deliberate scaremongering tactic to try and get sympathy for 10 year olds on Adults Only regions." Hm is this part of your post a thinly veiled accusation or ignorance? 🤔

 

I've been pretty damn clear on my stance of being fine with child AV's being not allowed in A regions.

 

 

Edited May 5 by Leslie Trihey

[AnthonyJoanne]

This has been fascinating for a number of reasons.

Here's a few thoughts just to muddy the waters a bit more.

Firstly:

I don't think I've seen anyone who's noticed the major flaw in the TOS yet, but I haven't managed to wade through all of this thread, so if it's already been said ... mea culpa. Try to remember that the default avatar is still the system avatar. And there is NO WAY to make a system avatar where you CANNOT remove the 'modesty panel'. It's going to be pretty hard to enforce "cannot be removed" when the basic avatar underneath all our mesh doesn't comply with that rule and CANNOT be made to short of adding some kind of flag that prohibits you from changing your skin. So instead of indulging in panic, try to relax and wait to see how it unfolds. There is plenty time to panic later on.

Secondly:

It's been less than three days since the TOS was published. And in typical LL fashion it has left significant questions unanswered. Why are you freaking out that LL haven't addressed it over a weekend when you've got TWO months to get it sorted? For your own health, try to learn some patience ... because freaking out isn't doing you any good. It's too soon to be soiling your diapers. I'm translating into American, but I'm pretty sure I got that idiom right.

Thirdly:

Brace yourselves, because there's a chance that you'll lose all of the stuff you spent money on some day. Hundred or thousands of dollars just gone. Friends just gone. The places you cherish just gone. If you can't face that, then I'd advise you to reconsider spending time in a virtual environment ... because if the wrong people were to buy the rights to all of this, they'd have no qualms in shutting it all down, and the odds are that you'd have no legal recourse whatsoever.

 

 

[Starberry Passion]

4 minutes ago, Vanity Fair said:

I have often marvelled at just how SEGREGATED Second Life can be. It is most apparent when looking at furries vs. human avatars, but it also tends to happen with children vs. Adults (except for family roleplay), dinkies vs. regular sized avatars, etc.  

Second life community practice heavy segregation practices based on looks all the time.

Not just child vs adult but with many things.

That's why there should be an incentive to make more sims where people can go to feel like they have a place to fit in. However, it's not readily possible, because owning a sim is expensive.