Is PIOF essentially "Age Verification"?

[Dorientje Woller]

I would say yes if that payment is used with a copy of an ID where the real life is mentioned. And when it comes that there are still minors abusing the credit card and ID of dad or mum, sorry to say, that isn't the issue for LL, but a case of bad parenting.

[Silent Mistwalker]

59 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

But how does a child use a parent's card without the parent knowing? That point has always confused me.

it's not hard to do when mom leaves her purse where it is accessible even if she hides it under the bed or in her closet. No, I never took any cards. As for cash, I only took out what I had permission to get. Even dad's wallet was readily accessible when he would leave it on the dresser. It just wasn't as readily available since it would go into his pocket as soon as he dressed.

[Ceka Cianci]

11 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

I would say yes if that payment is used with a copy of an ID where the real life is mentioned. And when it comes that there are still minors abusing the credit card and ID of dad or mum, sorry to say, that isn't the issue for LL, but a case of bad parenting.

That's what a lot of age verification's are it seems, including LL's.. Just answer the question honestly, what's your name and birthday. This way companies can say, we asked and it's on them if they are dishonest.

[Blush Bravin]

Lying about your age by minors has been a problem since the first minor existed. Come on! How many of you used a fake ID to get into a bar before 21 (or whatever is the age requirement in your area)? It doesn't matter how stringent LL got with age verification there would still be minors in SL. 

One thing I do know, or at I'm fairly certain of, 99% of those minors are not going to portray themselves as minors.

[Kathrine Jansma]

34 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

age verification is a complete joke

Depends. The age verification built into the modern german eID card (Personalausweis) is actually quite sound and well done and pretty secure and can even keep your identity mostly hidden while verifying your age.

But the regulatory requirements to use that function are so hilariously high and badly done that next to no one uses it.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

18 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Lying about your age by minors has been a problem since the first minor existed. Come on! How many of you used a fake ID to get into a bar before 21 (or whatever is the age requirement in your area)? It doesn't matter how stringent LL got with age verification there would still be minors in SL. 

One thing I do know, or at I'm fairly certain of, 99% of those minors are not going to portray themselves as minors.

OMG there was quite a few places that never ask for my ID, they would get the guys and then give that little sign to go ahead. lol

[xDancingStarx]

This was one reason I found part of the "article" questionable. Everyone who would accuse SL of not having age verification has lost touch with reality in my opinion.

As if you'd run into minors in SL all of the time. What a joke. The core and probably majority of the userbase has been in SL for many years and while profiles don't show ages, I strongly refute that running into minors is a common thing in SL. You think running into minors in SL is common? Looking at platforms like Discord or Roblox. Man, if criminals were targeting minors, thinking they'd go for SL instead of one of the platforms that really are full of minors sounds in fact rather like an Agenda to harm SL while disguising as child protectors. A real age verification would definitely kill SL since it would create such a high entry barrier that even less new users would sign up.

Edited March 23 by xDancingStarx

[Love Zhaoying]

My understanding of "the main reasons" why land-owners would require PIOF is:

1. Keep people out who aren't likely to spend L$.

2. Keep people out who would attempt to hide any/all identity from LL (whether due to age or other reasons).

True? False?

Edited March 23 by Love Zhaoying

[Sid Nagy]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

My understanding of why land-owners would require PIOF is:

1. Keep people out who aren't likely to spend L$.

2. Keep people out who would attempt to hide any/all identity from LL (whether due to age or other reasons).

True? False?

IMHO you forgot the most important one:

3. Because they can.
My land, my rules, my kingdom.
Vanity and drama reasons mainly.

[Rowan Amore]

18 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

My understanding of "the main reasons" why land-owners would require PIOF is:

1. Keep people out who aren't likely to spend L$.

2. Keep people out who would attempt to hide any/all identity from LL (whether due to age or other reasons).

True? False?

I've always thought they required it thinking that people wouldn't tie payment info to a throw-away griefer account which I suppose might be true.  If it's just to keep unwanted alts out, that's just ridiculous.  All account I have are PIOF.

Edited March 23 by Rowan Amore

[InnerCity Elf]

It's a "better than nothing age verification".

Too many years ago, when I saw that there are things I'd like to spend L$ for, I found that I'd rather spend money earned in RL than spend my SL time fishing.

Back then, I could get L$ by simply buying a PaySafe card in like three or four shops around the corner, no credit card, ID, anything needed.

Very low barrier, and would've been easy peasy if I'd been underage, too.

At some point, PaySafe card didn't work anymore, which was a big issue for many SL users at least in my country, as credit cards weren't really widespread (more so, now, even more so since 2020, of course, and we all know that forces at work really hard to eliminate cash, and for different reasons than viruses, too). Debit card didn't work, either, just credit card and now, also PayPal, which needs to be verified, too, at least here, at least past some time/amount.

Had I been underage, my only option would have been asking for or stealing either of my parents' credit card (which they didn't have any, anyway, so, no way for me). Which might be no issue for some, but definitely is an issue for many. Without getting into the reasons, I definitely wouldn't have done either, and certainly others neither, even if some might, but that, again, "better than nothing age verification".

(long paragraph deleted, because people tending to not like their financial info, ID scans, etc., flying around too many companies, and potentially turning up in leaks, dark web,... isn't exactly the topic)

[Blush Bravin]

58 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

OMG there was quite a few places that never ask for my ID, they would get the guys and then give that little sign to go ahead. lol

This reminded me of something I've not thought about in years. My best friend's dad was in the Navy. As such, she had access to the base. For some reason we were able to get into the NCO club and drink and dance and we were only 16! We were never carded when we'd go there.

*Further thoughts: Looking back that was incredibly dangerous. Our parents had no idea we'd go to the base and go dancing. Now to bring this back to on topic. Minors are going to minor and sometimes the rules or even parental involvement isn't going to prevent such behavior. 

So given this, my viewpoint is that LL needs to do what covers them from legal responsibility. The Lab can't predict everything someone might do to circumvent the rules.

Edited March 23 by Blush Bravin

[Love Zhaoying]

34 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

49 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

My understanding of "the main reasons" why land-owners would require PIOF is:

1. Keep people out who aren't likely to spend L$.

2. Keep people out who would attempt to hide any/all identity from LL (whether due to age or other reasons).

True? False?

I've always thought they required it thinking that people wouldn't tie payment info to a throw-away griefer account which I suppose might be true.  If it's just to keep unwanted alts out, that's just ridiculous.  All account I have are PIOF.

Will it keep Bots out?

[Ceka Cianci]

13 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

This reminded me of something I've not thought about in years. My best friend's dad was in the Navy. As such, she had access to the base. For some reason we were able to get into the NCO club and drink and dance and we were only 16! We were never carded when we'd go there.

I've had some where I was only 19 and 20 and looked at my ID and still let me in..lol

It wouldn't work in the couple of really big clubs, but a lot of the others that did card me would still let me in.. Girls had much easier time getting into the clubs I think.. hehehe

[Rowan Amore]

25 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Will it keep Bots out?

I doubt it.  Nothing keeping anyone from adding payment info to a bot account AFAIK.  

Edited March 23 by Rowan Amore

[Rowan Amore]

28 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

This reminded me of something I've not thought about in years. My best friend's dad was in the Navy. As such, she had access to the base. For some reason we were able to get into the NCO club and drink and dance and we were only 16! We were never carded when we'd go there.

*Further thoughts: Looking back that was incredibly dangerous. Our parents had no idea we'd go to the base and go dancing. Now to bring this back to on topic. Minors are going to minor and sometimes the rules or even parental involvement isn't going to prevent such behavior. 

So given this, my viewpoint is that LL needs to do what covers them from legal responsibility. The Lab can't predict everything someone might do to circumvent the rules.

My friends and I were getting into bars when we were 16.  It was easy enough to get a fake ID specifically for that.  They were passable enough for the bouncers at the clubs and seeing as how it was a college town and it was mostly college males at the door, females had no trouble getting in.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I doubt it.  Nothing keeping anyone from adding payment info to a bot account AFAIK.  

I've assumed that many/most "legitimate" bot owners (bots for research, etc.) would not use PIOF for various reasons.

[Qie Niangao]

However effective an age-verification method is (or isn't), there's much to be said for sticking with industry standard (which is, basically, asking nicely).

If the company is fine with losing lawsuits left and right, then sure: get creative, hire an "age verification" service, etc. Remember Aristotle/Integrity? That might have screened out a handful of underage users but as I recall, it exposed more liability than it averted.

This isn't legal advice, but there's much to be said for hiding in the herd, doing whatever everybody else is doing. This is nowhere to innovate.

[Maximillon Lefavre]

In answer to your question, no PIOF is not a true age verifier and can be subverted. Honestly though, the whole age verification for internet pornography cracks me up especially the laws in places like Texas because people are so worried about minors seeing sexual images but hey, let's not worry about minors going hungry and starving in the streets or minors having guns and shooting up schools.

[Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia]

I treat credit card info on file as 75% age verification.  I don't think there are regulations on kids buying prepaid credit cards, or receiving them ask gifts, or using them, or stealing their parents cards.  There's always ways around any system.  If somebody doesn't have payment info, though, I mentally give them a 75% chance of being a minor, and treat them like a 16 year old.

Keep in mind:  18 years ago was 2006.  I know, it makes me feel old too.

Think about what happened in 2006.  YouTube was brand new, no YouTube memes were really hitting virality yet.  If you talk about your TiVo, or hunting Easter eggs in Homestar Runner, or say you used your sidekick to talk to your friends about gaming on New Grounds and watching Numa Numa... and they act like you are speaking a foreign language... then they're almost certainly a minor.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

28 minutes ago, Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia said:

If you talk about your TiVo, or hunting Easter eggs in Homestar Runner, or say you used your sidekick to talk to your friends about gaming on New Grounds and watching Numa Numa... and they act like you are speaking a foreign language... then they're almost certainly a minor.

Or, and I know this is a radical thought here, they don't come from the same country as you, and weren't into the same things as you 18 years ago.

I've never watched "Numa Numa" whatever that is, and probably wouldn't want to.

I've never "gamed on New Grounds", and probably wouldn't want to.

I've never used anything called "sidekick" to talk to anyone, ever.

I've never owned a TiVo, and they didn't exist in MY country in 2006.

 

Assuming that anyone who didn't watch the same lame cartoons or net memes, or play the same console games or own the same brand of TV recorder as you did 18 years ago, is "almost certainly a minor" is utterly inane.

 

[shireena1]

Even I don't know what "sidekick" is,  and yes, newgrounds was great until they killed off adobe flash.

[AmeliaJ08]

10 hours ago, Modulated said:

I don't know where you are in the world, but due to strict laws, any kind of bank card you have in the U.S. you must provide a social security number when opening the account, all of that is verified- so when you purchase in SL with said card they know who the card belongs to and if the person is an adult or not pretty much.  This is precisely why they probably don't allow prepaid gift cards and things similar for payment options. You must use some sort of verified payment .The banking system and verification measures all work in parallel.

European banks routinely issue Visa Debit cards to people under 18, they function like any other Visa card in how they work for the merchant but are of course just Debit cards tied to a current (checking) account so are not any use for age verification on their own.

I believe some card issuing banks and third parties do offer age verification to merchants who may be selling age restricted products who request (or pay, presumably) it when making a Visa Debit transaction however so it's maybe technically possible to filter out the under 18 cardholders but not sure LL would want to do this due to the expense, it would make more sense to just run their own age verification system requiring users to submit official documents... and all the GDPR (and laws in other territories) related headaches that come along with that.

 

Edited March 23 by AmeliaJ08

[Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia]

1 hour ago, shireena1 said:

Even I don't know what "sidekick" is,  and yes, newgrounds was great until they killed off adobe flash.

The Sidekick was a precursor to the iPhone.  It was popular in the early 2000s.  All the cool kids on the Nickelodeon shows seemed to have them.  You might not recognize the name, but you probably recognize the phone.  It had a slide out keyboard for your thumbs.  Here's a Cnet article about the history of Sidekicks.

[Eowyn Southmoor]

11 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

My understanding of "the main reasons" why land-owners would require PIOF is:

1. Keep people out who aren't likely to spend L$.

2. Keep people out who would attempt to hide any/all identity from LL (whether due to age or other reasons).

True? False?

Some countries have restrictions on use for credit cards in foreign countries etc, so that sometimes its not possible for a resident in SL to supply PIOF to LL.  They aren't trying to hide anything from LL.

I know several people in SL who this effects, so the only way they can buy anything in SL is to earn L$ in-world first.  

Unfortunately because people mistakingly think PIOF is the same thing as Age Verification, these people sometimes find themselves banned from some "public" places, whether it be a club, community place etc

 

EDIT:  So to answer your question,  your points are probably correct in determining that those are the most likely reasons people use PIOF as a restriction, but it's a shame that in doing so it punishes innocent residents.

Edited March 24 by Eowyn Southmoor
added info