Love Zhaoying Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 minute ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: they give you what they think you should see. "They".. PBR is a Conspiracy! I read it on the Forum! If you don't find the answer to your PBR question on Google, then "they" don't want us to find it! I think this line of thought is easily explained by Hanlon's Razor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor At the same time, it is a shame, just a shame that the Second Life PBR documentation is "lacking". If it were "better", then we could all point to that documentation instead of arguing (as much). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prokofy Neva Posted January 3 Author Share Posted January 3 1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said: "Adults" are more set in their ways - and don't want to be told anything they disagree with. Yet, these same "adults" expect "children" to respect teachers, parents, elders, and experts. You see a lot of that in these threads! Example: Them: "Wahh, PBR is going to sucketh greatly!" Experts: "No, it will be fine." (Explains in great detail why.) Them: "I don't believe you, because LL always fails!" Experts: "Why are you here again?" Me: I'm not an expert, but I'm sure it will be fine. No, it's already been established in this thread (see above) that it does not work in the regular SL Viewer as imagined. Just because a small percent use this viewer for valid historical and current reasons doesn't mean the point is overridden. I always marvel at the way people align themselves with the powers-that-be in SL in ways they never would in RL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 hour ago, Janet Voxel said: It’s interesting to me that we lament the decline of education, yet we don’t lament the decline of adult learning and reading comprehension. As adults we become more selective in what we do attempt to learn, having realized how much we actually don't know. There is only so much time in the day and the moment some pointed out that PBR will not have any real advantage to make the avatar look better, I lost even what little interest I did have. Considering the Lab's own inability to make anything user friendly, it sounds like just too much time and effort to learn something many of us are not going to have any interest in. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: As adults we become more selective in what we do attempt to learn, having realized how much we actually don't know. There is only so much time in the day and the moment some pointed out that PBR will not have any real advantage to make the avatar look better, I lost even what little interest I did have. Considering the Lab's own inability to make anything user friendly, it sounds like just too much time and effort to learn something many of us are not going to have any interest in. I like your "spin" on it; positive and hopeful. Not just, "Ain't nobody got time for that!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 56 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: Search engines aren't even good at finding stuff anymore. I've noticed that Google, DuckDuckGo etc if you ask them an even slightly niche query, will instead give you results for something more commonly searched for, and absolutely refuse to give you any results that aren't A. a major news publisher (aka. a content farm) or B. an app posing as a website. It used to be the case that you'd find results of people having discussions about niche topics on forums or some persons personal website, but now unless it's a big site it's not in the results. It's like unless it's big and corporate you're not allowed to see it. Sometimes I resort to using Yandex, this russian search engine, just to get oldschool interesting results. Ah, the good old days. ..When Bing stole search results from Google. ..When there was a FIlipino version of "Yahoo" called, "Yahay" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 32 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: As adults we become more selective in what we do attempt to learn, having realized how much we actually don't know. There is only so much time in the day and the moment some pointed out that PBR will not have any real advantage to make the avatar look better, I lost even what little interest I did have. Considering the Lab's own inability to make anything user friendly, it sounds like just too much time and effort to learn something many of us are not going to have any interest in. Keep in mind I’m not telling you how to live your life or anything like that. There’s only so many hours in a day, my life is so busy (yet I have time to post on a message board, watch YouTube videos, tik tok, etc, etc), all excuses. when we become adults, learning is no longer mandatory…that’s all. Maybe you become more selective in what you attempt to learn, but that’s not the case for everyone. Also, that doesn’t change from when you’re a child. Children are also selective in what they learn. For a thing that is a hobby, a past time, a game it means you have some kind of interest in it. It is also not mandatory. It’s also a platform that does very little in the way of holding your hand and you pretty much have to figure it out yourself. It’s pretty telling that you based your opinion on what someone else said, when you can literally download the viewer and see for yourself. You could have downloaded the gltf viewer months ago. You could’ve played with it then. LL encouraged people to do this. When this topic came up months ago and the sky was falling then, that’s exactly what I did. I built a little bathroom scene and attempted to make gltf materials and thought ‘hmmm…this isn’t bad, I’d like to see what the gltf viewer looks like on the main grid.” So I did. I even discovered the Alchemy viewer, which I didn’t even know existed. I learned something. What you’re doing isn’t being selective about what you learn. It’s actively trying not to learn about a topic, yet….trying to be active in a conversation about it. They used to call that something. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said: There is only so much time in the day and the moment some pointed out that PBR will not have any real advantage to make the avatar look better, I lost even what little interest I did have. Considering the Lab's own inability to make anything user friendly, it sounds like just too much time and effort to learn something many of us are not going to have any interest in. I can see your point in not wanting to learn something you personally don't have any use for, given what you're here for in SL with its primary or even exclusive focus on avatar aesthetics. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that many of us are not going to have any interest in the advantages of PBR. Many are profoundly interested in the environment around us and how it looks...the places we inhabit beyond our avatar. You can witness this in the photos residents take, the places they enjoy visiting, and in Bellisseria where fixing up home and garden is an exciting experience in their SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Vortex Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) everything about the orginal post here is written by someone who has no real clue about pbr, how it works or even tested 3rd party viewers to see that '' issues such as removing materials " is moot, as you can with further updates to the viewer systems, the FS alpha currently DOES support toggling back to ALM or PBR materials on the build menu, i also see no mention of HDR windlights, no metion of reflection probes and their uses with PBR materials ( something people who know how it works understands!) nor is there any forgiveness on a new system to pull the bugs out! Imma post some videos... judge yourself on how it really is, compared to how the orginal posters irrelevance and lack of knowlege & spread of missinfomation on how things really work.. spreading miss-infomation to the masses with no insight... sigh... https://screenrec.com/share/CqUsYoDnQJ https://screenrec.com/share/heV3SXsnCv https://screenrec.com/share/CIFZ6nyl5d https://screenrec.com/share/OSWDjN6txE https://screenrec.com/share/4WxaQeIspb Mic drop! Edited January 3 by Victoria Vortex 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephanie Misfit Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 4 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said: Search engines aren't even good at finding stuff anymore. I've noticed that Google, DuckDuckGo etc if you ask them an even slightly niche query, will instead give you results for something more commonly searched for, and absolutely refuse to give you any results that aren't A. a major news publisher (aka. a content farm) or B. an app posing as a website. It used to be the case that you'd find results of people having discussions about niche topics on forums or some persons personal website, but now unless it's a big site it's not in the results. It's like unless it's big and corporate you're not allowed to see it. Sometimes I resort to using Yandex, this russian search engine, just to get oldschool interesting results. Add to this the number of discussions (especially around tech support) that are being moved to Discord. Which of course is not searchable by any engine, and hard to search for information manually too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Victoria Vortex said: everything about the orginal post here is written by someone who has no real clue about pbr, how it works or even tested 3rd party viewers to see that '' issues such as removing materials " is mute, as you can with further updates to the viewer systems, the FS alpha currently DOES support toggling back to ALM or PBR materials on the build menu, i also see no mention of HDR windlights, no metion of reflection probes and their uses with PBR materials ( something people who know how it works understands!) nor is there any forgiveness on a new system to pull the bugs out! Imma post some videos... judge yourself on how it really is, compared to how the orginal posters irrelevance and lack of knowlege & spread of missinfomation on how things really work.. spreading miss-infomation to the masses with no insight... sigh... https://screenrec.com/share/CqUsYoDnQJ https://screenrec.com/share/heV3SXsnCv https://screenrec.com/share/CIFZ6nyl5d https://screenrec.com/share/OSWDjN6txE https://screenrec.com/share/4WxaQeIspb Mic drop! A picture or video is worth a thousand words or 40+ pages of posts, so thx for that as your videos make it look interesting at least, something no other PBR fan or the lab itself has been able to do so far. Edited January 3 by Arielle Popstar 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cube Republic Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 The way textures and materials are applied under the new PBR system can be counter intuitive at first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinnamon Mistwood Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 39 minutes ago, Victoria Vortex said: Imma post some videos... judge yourself on how it really is, compared to how the orginal posters irrelevance and lack of knowlege & spread of missinfomation on how things really work.. spreading miss-infomation to the masses with no insight... sigh... Mic drop! *hands your mic back to you* Did you have insight to share or knowledge of how it all works? Spinning a camera in a circle doesn't combat misinformation. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arton Rotaru Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 16 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: A picture or video is worth a thousand words or 40+ pages of posts, so thx for that as your videos make it look interesting at least, something no other PBR fan or the lab itself has been able to do so far. Well, the viewer is available to anyone to see it live in action for themselfs. This is nothing which has to be advertised by ads or something to be sold. It's just the new normal of what Second Life is from now on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Someone complained that PBR won't affect their body. I assume they meant lack of BOM support or perhaps they're using the default LL body. Just wanted to point this out - The jira is filed by a linden and contains plans for bom support for PBR, so obviously they are thinking about it already but it would be its own project. So who knows, maybe it will come down the road. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said: Someone complained that PBR won't affect their body. I assume they meant lack of BOM support or perhaps they're using the default LL body. Just wanted to point this out - The jira is filed by a linden and contains plans for bom support for PBR, so obviously they are thinking about it already but it would be its own project. So who knows, maybe it will come down the road. Yay, thanks! I was hoping we can get improved "body textures" with PBR!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Vortex Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 6 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said: *hands your mic back to you* Did you have insight to share or knowledge of how it all works? Spinning a camera in a circle doesn't combat misinformation. I'm not prepared to share insights or ''how too guides'' instead i've demostrated the diffrence between the miss infomation given and the reality of how it actully is, it's up to you to make your own mind up how you feel about pbr with the evidence provide on what it REALLY is like over someone saying why they don't like it with no clue about how to go about things... if your prepared to learn then theres no stopping you and plently of infomation out there!. what i'm not gonna do is blow smoke up your backside or spread further false facts or even sit here and listen to ppl ranting on about whats wrong with it when educating youselfs with correct infomation would do you much better than sitting in a forum being a sheep to someones oppinions. Flat out i wont be responding to further comments.. 1, i dont have the time, 2, i've shown you the acual truth at time of writing, and 3, getting drawn into debates with ppl on forums who still havnt educated themself is'nt gonna end well for me, nor you when i correct you and you all end up ''Karening'' in my box. so educate yourself, don't be a sheep. Peace out! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 56 minutes ago, Victoria Vortex said: is mute, Maybe "moot" is meant? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinnamon Mistwood Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 6 minutes ago, Victoria Vortex said: I'm not prepared to share insights or ''how too guides'' instead i've demostrated the diffrence between the miss infomation given and the reality of how it actully is, it's up to you to make your own mind up how you feel about pbr with the evidence provide on what it REALLY is like over someone saying why they don't like it with no clue about how to go about things... if your prepared to learn then theres no stopping you and plently of infomation out there!. what i'm not gonna do is blow smoke up your backside or spread further false facts or even sit here and listen to ppl ranting on about whats wrong with it when educating youselfs with correct infomation would do you much better than sitting in a forum being a sheep to someones oppinions. Flat out i wont be responding to further comments.. 1, i dont have the time, 2, i've shown you the acual truth at time of writing, and 3, getting drawn into debates with ppl on forums who still havnt educated themself is'nt gonna end well for me, nor you when i correct you and you all end up ''Karening'' in my box. so educate yourself, don't be a sheep. Peace out! But you didn't actually share anything. I am not sure what "karening in your box" is, either. I am open to correction, but you didn't do that either. I am not sure what you were trying to correct with the videos, so I asked if I missed the correct information you thought you were imparting. If you need a break from the hard work of teaching and correcting people, it's okay, though. Must be hard on one's peace of mind. Your short animations were super cute. I feel so much more informed about PBR, how it works, and why it matters now. Whew. Time for a break. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 49 minutes ago, Victoria Vortex said: the FS alpha currently DOES support toggling back to ALM or PBR materials on the build menu At least the latest version available to the testing group, 7.1.2 (72848), does not support this. Once a PBR Material is applied, it must be removed (set to None) from the Materials picker before the spec/norm texture maps can be manipulated. One thing I just noticed, though: the "Choose from Inventory" button is kind of redundant with just clicking on the little preview image to summon the Materials picker where "None" is actually selected. Clicking on the preview works the same in both the Firestorm and Linden viewers. CoolVL does it differently, with a PBR radio button that coexists with radio buttons for the ALM material maps "Diffuse", "Normal", and "Specular" which it can manipulate while the PBR Material is present on the surface. There's no PBR preview, but it's not a bad tradeoff for use of precious Build Tool space. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmeliaJ08 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Mistress Morbid said: Add to this the number of discussions (especially around tech support) that are being moved to Discord. Which of course is not searchable by any engine, and hard to search for information manually too. Yes I have raged about Discord before and will again. It is a disaster as far as sharing information online, I really do not understand why it is being used as a forum or even a wiki. Discord is IRC 2.0 and it does that reasonably well (but is worryingly centralized) but using it as a discussion forum makes information difficult to find, often hidden behind an invite wall and basically ensures it will go missing far faster than alternatives. Search engines have become bad enough but moving information outside the reach of even archive.org is going to be very annoying for people in a few years time. Edited January 3 by AmeliaJ08 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arton Rotaru Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 4 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said: I am not sure what you were trying to correct with the videos, so I asked if I missed the correct information you thought you were imparting. I guess they were referring to Prokofy thinking PBR is some sort of "super bump map". Which wasn't the point of this particular thread actually. But, who cares? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) We could argue for 40 pages that some points the OP made are wrong about "why" they don't like PBR. It won't change the fact they don't like PBR. Edited January 3 by Love Zhaoying 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 13 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: We could argue for 40 pages that some points the OP made are wrong about "why" they don't like PBR. It won't change the fact they don't like PBR. Or much of anything for that matter .... 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Also, showcasing what can be done with PBR has its place ... Any thread wherein someone is (rightly or wrongly) complaining about aspects of it/its implementation is not the lace to do so, especially if you're not going to be giving instructions or explanations. It is one thing to note/state that the OP for a Thread such as this is mistaken (on one or any number of fronts) and a whole other ting to come in, show off what you have done with no explanation beyond "look it up yourself" given for a function/feature whose documentation may or may not yet be complete. At least one other user has noted that there are bits missing from said documentation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 6 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: Or much of anything for that matter .... If the thread lasts long enough, "how PBR works" will change, regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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