Infrastructure Investment Update: Buy/Sell Fee Change and Land Pricing Effective Mar 6, 2023 DISCUSSION

[Love Zhaoying]

So for some, the announcement is a..game changer.

[Theresa Tennyson]

24 minutes ago, Mariusz Ivanovic said:

I buy in game/service currency all the time, and SL is the only one that charges transaction fees at all...15$ is just outrageous! 

Do any of the other platforms allow their in-game currency to be cashed out?

[Chic Aeon]

25 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Do any of the other platforms allow their in-game currency to be cashed out?

Kitely does (Opensim "main" platform) and Inworldz DID before it closed. Also Sinespace and Sansar (as far as  know still).  Those are just platforms I have been a part of. 

 

Kitely sends your money to you automatically every week or so depending on how much you sell.  That's pretty nice. 

 

PS. There are other opensim worlds that let you cash out via third parties.  

Edited March 8, 2023 by Chic Aeon
adding info

[Mariusz Ivanovic]

4 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Do any of the other platforms allow their in-game currency to be cashed out?

I've EARNED and purchased literally 10's of MILLIONS of L$ in my time on SL, I've NEVER cashed out ANY, not a single L$, so even if LL allows me to cash it out, it doesn't make it relevant to my post since I clearly stated that I BUY L$. Not sure what your point is. The fact that I CAN cash out does not give me any value to the 15$ fee I'm paying for each of my purchases, I'd rather just get Premium accounts on all my alts, at least I'm getting SOMETHING for my money then, and I just won't have the purchasing power to support the content creators that make this world function. Lazy greed is going to end up being the downfall of SL. Most of my avatars in SL have well over 50k inventories, and I already have more than I can ever need or want in here. I purchase L$ to support and contribute to the wide variety of creators in here and keep current. I shouldn't be expected to just soak up more costs in fees every time LL decides they aren't making enough profit, as I'm already getting less value from my L$ purchases in world from creators having to raise prices. Here is a suggestion to LL : Lets drop the facade of this fake trading "currency market" and just charge a flat fee of 250=1$, with a transaction fee of 1$, and spend time actually INNOVATING, and finding new revenue streams and/or ways to charge for services, that actually give value to your customers, instead of strangulating the people that spend the most money in here.

[Tech Robonaught]

On 3/6/2023 at 5:44 PM, Artorius Constantine said:

I was having a bad day and it just got worse. Raising the buy and sell fees will really hurt the economy. For buyers and sellers. Very bad idea.

SL is my ONLY job. My only source of income and it's already a stretch to pay all the fees and keep enough to live on.

You keep raising the fees and giving nothing for the extra charges.

I will probably have to sell my land to eliminate tier, then I can drop premium and just rent a much smaller place as a little showroom with a few rezzers to make up for these extra fees and the drop in sales from others who won't buy as many Lindens to spend in world, due to those increased fees.

Then people won't be able to see all my products in world and my sales will drop even more. Great.

Mine also - I was as adjusted as I could get to giving up 125 - 150 dollars a month between cashing out and converting it to spendable dollars, now I'll have to get used to giving up 150 - 175 dollars a month, so to buffer that some I'll have to run my sales at a lesser discount and half as often, so really both me and the customer will suffer for it.

That being said,  I could see fee increases, if we were getting value added across the board, but when I call corporate and want to talk to a human, as I've been an active contributing part of this endeavor for 15 years, I'd really like to be able to do that.  But it seems services rendered are also getting smaller.

[Coffee Pancake]

7 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Do any of the other platforms allow their in-game currency to be cashed out?

Roblox is busy stealing teenagers pocket-money with their exorbitant fees, VRChat's economy is outside of VRChat via sites like gumroad and will likely stay there. Other big platforms tend to like the real money to come in and then never leave.

It wouldn't surprise me if we see systems in SL for people to make a purchase 'somewhere' and then redeem a code in world to obtain their goods.

[Theresa Tennyson]

8 hours ago, Mariusz Ivanovic said:

I've EARNED and purchased literally 10's of MILLIONS of L$ in my time on SL, I've NEVER cashed out ANY, not a single L$, so even if LL allows me to cash it out, it doesn't make it relevant to my post since I clearly stated that I BUY L$. Not sure what your point is. The fact that I CAN cash out does not give me any value to the 15$ fee I'm paying for each of my purchases, I'd rather just get Premium accounts on all my alts, at least I'm getting SOMETHING for my money then, and I just won't have the purchasing power to support the content creators that make this world function. Lazy greed is going to end up being the downfall of SL. Most of my avatars in SL have well over 50k inventories, and I already have more than I can ever need or want in here. I purchase L$ to support and contribute to the wide variety of creators in here and keep current. I shouldn't be expected to just soak up more costs in fees every time LL decides they aren't making enough profit, as I'm already getting less value from my L$ purchases in world from creators having to raise prices. Here is a suggestion to LL : Lets drop the facade of this fake trading "currency market" and just charge a flat fee of 250=1$, with a transaction fee of 1$, and spend time actually INNOVATING, and finding new revenue streams and/or ways to charge for services, that actually give value to your customers, instead of strangulating the people that spend the most money in here.

So, can you cash out the game currency you bought in any of the other environments you mentioned? Because if you can't, every cent you spent on them is a "service charge." And that's the difference between Lindens and "game currency."

[Love Zhaoying]

The fee increases remind me of a verse, "Bind not the mouths of the kine the tread the grain".

[Rowan Amore]

I don't know many place online where they don't charge sales tax or some other fee added onto the price of whatever product you're buying and Ls are a product.  Sales tax in San Francisco is nearly 8.7%.  They COULD charge sales tax also on top of fees so...

https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/10207-sales-tax-on-us-purchases/

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I don't know many place online where they don't charge sales tax or some other fee added onto the price of whatever product you're buying and Ls are a product.  Sales tax in San Francisco is nearly 8.7%.  They COULD charge sales tax also on top of fees so...

https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/10207-sales-tax-on-us-purchases/

 

Interestingly to me at least, is the thought that if LL had instead said "Sorry, we can't afford to pay the taxes on L$ purchases anymore so will have to start charging that", it would have less pushback than fee increases.  I bet charging tax would be harder because then, people would notice and complain if the calculated tax is wrong (due to regional rates, etc.); it would take awhile to get that system right.

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Interestingly to me at least, is the thought that if LL had instead said "Sorry, we can't afford to pay the taxes on L$ purchases anymore so will have to start charging that", it would have less pushback than fee increases.  I bet charging tax would be harder because then, people would notice and complain if the calculated tax is wrong (due to regional rates, etc.); it would take awhile to get that system right.

LL absorbs a lot of costs they could pass along but don't.  They charge VAT on monthly premium subscriptions but not on yearly so they absorb that cost as well, unless that has changed.  That's a big chunk of change.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

LL absorbs a lot of costs they could pass along but don't.  They charge VAT on monthly premium subscriptions but not on yearly so they absorb that cost as well, unless that has changed.  That's a big chunk of change.

Such a shame that everyone is all, "But what have you done for me lately?"

Guess I'm just a fanb..I mean fangrr...Fang.

[Sid Nagy]

They deserve a medal of honor for so much kindness. 🤣

Better believe that LL makes sure that there is a healthy percentage of profit on top of their total costs.
And rightfully so. It is what companies do: Try to make profit.

They make decisions where they best can take your money by charging fees to maximize profits without getting to the tipping point were customers walk away by the droves. That is called profit optimization.

They absorb nothing, they pay several sorts of taxes, just like every company and calculate that in their pricing, which they have done already for years and years otherwise they would have been out of business long time ago.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Englisn, as always.

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

They deserve a medal of honor for so much kindness. 🤣

Better believe that LL makes sure that there is a healthy percentage of profit on top of their total costs.
And rightfully so. It is what companies do.

They make decisions where they best can take your money by charging fees to maximize profits without getting to the tipping point were customers walk away by the droves. That is called profit optimization.

They absorb nothing, they pay several sorts of taxes, just like every company and calculate that in their pricing, which they have done already for years and years otherwise they would have been out of business long time ago.

Coming soon: 2048 Premium Plus homes, FREE starter mesh avatars, and PBR.  The benefits are almost endless. 

This discussion thread is just a microcosm of things that change all the time.

[Sid Nagy]

If only everything that LL has announced over the years really would have made it into Second Life.
Promising the moon is easy, but realizing what you promise, that is what counts in the end.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Arielle Popstar]

15 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

If only everything that LL has announced over the years really would have made it into Second Life.
Promising the moon is easy, but realizing what you promise, that is what counts in the end.

Yes, the Lab Gab really would be better termed Lab BS because it is what it mostly amounts to.

[Pixels Sideways]

Short version: Do better Linden Labs and stop passing the buck.

Long version.  Grab a beverage and some snacks and settle into your comfy chair.

So LL hired some marketing guy they're prolly forking over a lot $$$ to and yet I see nothing anywhere about SL in the press, on social media, etc., other than things written by residents.

Truly LL has repeatedly failed in this regard and it's no surprise that retention doesn't pan out and attrition increases. And this affects their bottom line.

As someone pointed out earlier, SL needs more cash cows (residents) and I have yet to see effort on LL's part to successfully drive that.

I worked in PR & marketing at a major entertainment company so I know a little bit about getting eyes on your brand and product and motivating people to leave the comfort of their homes , drive, park, pay for a ticket, buy snacks and sit in a theatre for two hours.  Even with streaming the studios still generate huge profits. Getting butts in the seats kept us employed as well as other streams of revenue from different divisions. Continuity of product quality and building brand trust matters. And above all, getting the word out everywhere.

I've been in SL long enough to see some colossal missteps LL has taken that drove people out. 

> The great homestead bait & switch in which LL offered homesteads for $75 USD then realized they screwed up and reversed it.  That pissed off A LOT of folks in SL, many left and it kicked off major trust issues with LL.

> The TOS copyright update sent more people away. over concerns about their copyright to their original content.

> Massive layoffs of LL employees - many who used to be present in SL and interacted regularly with residents.  That created a sad ghostly pall over SL and subsequent interactions with LL employees were and still are few and far between.

> Sansar.  LL's biggest FUBAR yet.  I mean, when you know going in that Apple product users would not be able to access Sansar as well as quite a few SL residents who could not afford to upgrade their computers to access it in addition to the inability to transfer content you spent a crap ton of RL dollars acquiring in SL, that would seem to me, at least, to be a deal breaker in going forward with a new VR world that 86'd over half your users.  And as many predicted, Sansar died a spectacular death.

> Offering new Linden homes to Premium members but not having anywhere near enough to go around and making residents s scramble and compete to get one instead of doing a lottery or some other fair way of allocating the limited number of Linden homes.

> Toying with the LL land prices, currenciy and fees. 

I get that LL is a business with overhead and salaries, etc., but it has been incredibly profitable especially given that it operates on the fringes of entertainment.  And that's still an issue.

When people hear "Second Life" they either have no clue what it is or have read some stupid myopic review that focuses on some sordid aspects of SL.  I took some numpty journalist to task for writing a stupid review article of SL - he saw only a fraction of SL and whoever his "guide" was didn't know ***** but they sure managed to find the adult stuff ASAP. This dumbass article appeared in a major outlet.

This goes back to SL's lack of marketing and PR.  The ONLY positive and informational articles I see about SL come from Hamlet's blog that I periodically catch via my FB feed or from other inworld or Opensim blogs that pop up randomly.  The SL website should have a page devoted to these blogs and positive articles about SL.

When I'm not getting suspended on Twitter for telling Nazis to self deport from earth, I see a lot of push for that 8 bit looking VR world called the Sandbox that is a crypto crap trap that has some relationship with Snoop Dogg and a few other high profile peeps. I will post replies on Sandbox's Twitter feed about how SL is a far better VR world visually and has a significant commerce sector and entertainment and so on.  I feel I should say something since no one at LL is.

I have never seen any push for Second Life. None. Just stuff from those associated with SL whom I follow but now mostly nothing since Twitter 's new man-baby owner has tinkered with the algorithms and forced hate posts from white supremacists and the rest of #TinyDickNation into your feeds.  I don't know what it takes to boost your feed and be heard on social media but it's where people go to find out about things via info blasts. So LL, why aren't you blasting like crazy on Twitter, FB, Instagram. TikTok, Discord and all the other social media sites?.  Where are your influencers ?  (I said that out loud despite my reluctance to say influencer.)

Anyway, LL can increase revenue without nickle and diming residents who drop their limited budgeted RL cash into keeping SL and its merchants and entertainers afloat and paying that marketing guy's salary, among other expenses.. COL has increased everywhere so if LL wants to keep folks actively engaged in SL, they need to offer better incentives for residents to continue to hand over their hard earned moolah.

Offering deals to Premium Plus members but none to Premium members who have been loyal for years smacks of exclusionary richy rich BS.   LL could just have easily plugged those extra perks into Premium memberships and lots of folks would have signed up.  And it's a great incentive and affordable.  

As for improving Second Life...

The move to the Amazon server farm was supposed to be more economical and save LL $$$ and operate more efficiently but I've yet to see those results.  I don't bork as much going over sim crossings but I seem to crash a lot more when teleporting.

There are things on the Jira that have been languishing there for years that would vastly improve certain features of SL. 

I've been hearing about SL developing brand relationships but I've yet to see anything truly pan out.  There is so much potential here but apparently there is a lack of imagination or motivation or an inability to see it from the perspective of those who have invested a significant amount of time in SL. 

I could see giving someone like Snoop a sim in exchange for promoting SL and the zany potential that would have.  He could link VR products back to his RL products.  I recently created a mesh book that does this for a friend in SL who just released a novel on Amazon.  Snoop's Island could definitely bring in his followers and adjacent sims and homesteads could be purchased for far less than what Sandbox land costs though as noted, Sandbox is crypto driven so that currency is insanely inflated and as unstable as a drunk clown on stilts on top of a ball a seal is juggling.  SL currency seems stable - I've not worried about it in the 15 years I've been using it -  and as long as it doesn't get greedily inflated, it works for everyone. 

So this meandering reply to LL can be summed up as this: Stop passing the costs on to SL residents that you've incurred because your profits are going south while you do zip to increase revenue via bringing more people into SL.  Make their first experience as good as possible. Ensure that every newly spawned visitor's first impression is one that introduces them not only to the "how to's" of SL but to snippets of everything they can discover here.  Make sure there are LL employees and/or LL approved volunteers to help new residents and who can ding griefers out the arrival areas. This is super simple stuff. 

And for the love of everything Second Life, LL get off your keisters and blast out positive messages about SL at every opportunity like you were LDS evangelicals telling strangers about the good news.

Make it easy for residents who also spend their limited time here to find out in a time efficient way what is happening in SL and not just via the viewer or website. Create some really cool one stop info places to go to that have freebies and info kiosks about all the different things SL residents can do and types of events and places to shop and art and educational spaces and support groups and so on. 

And reach out to some high profile folks and bring them into SL - assign them a LL employee to help get them up to speed and help arrange events, etc.. Once they are settled in, give them a special concierge connection to assist them if needed.  There are a variety of opportunities here.

Making SL better for everyone and expanding its reach and growing its users makes SL more profitable for LL and merchants and entertainers, can help to lower land costs and generates more fun, interesting and positive experiences for all.

I have ideas if you are interested.  As do a lot of SL residents. Talk to us.

And apologies for my typos. As for any colorful words, that's mah lingo.

xoxo

 

[Arielle Popstar]

23 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

If you're trying to set policy, it's safer to do it by what people do than by what they say.

Sure though recognizing that for every one that announces it on the boards, there are a hundred more that aren't announcing it and keeping in mind also that there will be even more who are not going to quit altogether but will substantially reduce their inworld time. My own has already been cut back to less then 10% of what it was up until a month ago as I went back to the competition and pat myself on the back for every week where my balance has not budged. That was not solely for the fee increase but also the constant ongoing Lab drama with their policy changes regarding Tilla, BBots, lackluster PP changes and the ongoing broken promises regarding a mobile viewer. The fee increase is just the icing on the cake. The region price increases mean little to me having a laptop beside me running 15 S/L style regions for myself and several friends for the price of a monthly electric charge. 

Not long ago I posted about the substantial drop in the economy by the Labs own reckoning so think maybe you ought to consider that S/L seems to be hurting and they are now just digging themselves in even more so.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Yes, the Lab Gab really would be better termed Lab BS because it is what it mostly amounts to.

I don't know, I mean I kinda liked the one with Strawberry and Patch and Grumpity..

They told us about mirrors which is already on the Beta grid right around the time they said they would be and those look really wild. They talked about the NUX and how they are doing on that and when we might be close to getting that..

I didn't watch the whole thing but the parts I did watch were interesting.. I don't watch a lot of the Lab Gabs so i don't know what a lot of the others are like, but did find that one interesting..

[EliseAnne85]

21 minutes ago, Pixels Sideways said:

1) *  Offering deals to Premium Plus members but none to Premium members who have been loyal for years smacks of exclusionary richy rich BS.   LL could just have easily plugged those extra perks into Premium memberships and lots of folks would have signed up.  And it's a great incentive and affordable.  

As for improving Second Life...

2)  * The move to the Amazon server farm was supposed to be more economical and save LL $$$ and operate more efficiently but I've yet to see those results.  I don't bork as much going over sim crossings but I seem to crash a lot more when teleporting.

I am quoting your post weird this way with using numbers 1 and 2 because I still can't get this multi quote thing.  It's my dyslexia in the way, I think.

1)  - PREMIUM.  This one could be important.  I would like a Premium membership but with versatility as I'd like a Premium package tailored to a builder's need.  Premium is the one I've been thinking of that could improve SL but they'd have to have an auto-pay set up that bills once a month on one particular day of each month only, say the 15th of every month for example (no exemptions) as I've been screwed up by auto-pay things billing me twice in one month in the past and present.  

2)  I believe SL moved to Amazon *before* SL was sold to the new owners.

Also, in regards to the old Linden owners, they always had cheap fees and supposedly more expensive servers.

We have new owners now who have been raising the fees.  Well, it's the new owner's business now.  They are going to run it how they want or see fit.  Many of us thought at the time the new owners were after Tilia.  Tilia is going to be their main cash cow, I'd think.  Many of us thought (at the time SL was sold) we are a secondary thought to the new owners.  Now, the new owners risk losing billions of dollars worth of already created beautiful products to their new PBR and forced ALM thingie.  

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[bigmoe Whitfield]

8 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

2)  I believe SL moved to Amazon *before* SL was sold to the new owners.

Also, in regards to the old Linden owners, they always had cheap fees and supposedly more expensive servers.

 

 

Oz was quoted on lab gab and on the forum, that aws costs LL more than their physical data center did.  but the physical datacenter hardware was 10 to 12 years old with a few pieces older than that,   that was running All sl services.

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

Oz was quoted on lab gab and on the forum, that aws costs LL more than their physical data center did.  but the physical datacenter hardware was 10 to 12 years old with a few pieces older than that,   that was running All sl services.

They can SAY it costs more, but hopefully Amazon costs less "long term" due to the cost of upgrades, power, etc. 

Otherwise - moving to Amazon doesn't help the LAB much (if it truly costs more overall in all aspects) - but hopefully helps US USERS in more scalability, reliability, etc.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Pixels Sideways]

24 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

1)  - PREMIUM.  This one could be important.  I would like a Premium membership but with versatility as I'd like a Premium package tailored to a builder's need.  Premium is the one I've been thinking of that could improve SL but they'd have to have an auto-pay set up that bills once a month on one particular day of each month only, say the 15th of every month for example (no exemptions) as I've been screwed up by auto-pay things billing me twice in one month in the past and present.  

I pay monthly for my premium membership - and am billed on the same day of each month and have been or years.  I also pay via paypal so it sets up the auto pay.   It costs more tho paying month to month than an annual membership.

[Sid Nagy]

57 minutes ago, Pixels Sideways said:

Long version.  Grab a beverage and some snacks and settle into your comfy chair.

Interesting read Pixels and it has a lot of relevant information.

LL found a bucket of gold when they created SL, but they treat it as if it is a bucket that can't get empty because it fills up by itself automatically. And the last 20 years it somehow did.

But: Results from the past are never a guaranty for the ones in the future.
So I would like to advise them too, to get the marketing strategy and customer care finally sorted out and at least up to par.

[EliseAnne85]

1 hour ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

Oz was quoted on lab gab and on the forum, that aws costs LL more than their physical data center did.  but the physical datacenter hardware was 10 to 12 years old with a few pieces older than that,   that was running All sl services.

When was this?  Many of us heard over and over by various posters on the forums, AWS cloud will cost less.  There was some panic on the forum at the time as many people in SL don't like big business, Amazon nor Jeff Bezos.  

But, overall as far as forum posts, I think some of the best info is here all across the board about SL, with some posts that may be erroneous that's why I used the wording "supposedly" in my post as I wasn't stating a fact.  One needs to verify these thing which I never read any post by Oz nor any other Linden about it one way or the other.  

However, the cost in fees with the new owners as compared to the old Linden owners is quite substantial.  I think with the old Linden's the fee was like .49 cents for everyone or something like that.  There is quite a difference.  

Edited March 9, 2023 by EliseAnne85