Why is PIOF for parcel/region entry a thing?

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It is, by definition, classist.

This approach doesn't actually target "griefers": it targets a class of account that, rightly or wrongly, is associated with griefers.

And in the process it also victimizes a wide swathe of people who are not griefers, and who for whatever reason -- financial exigencies, worries about their data, lack of an acceptable credit card, etc. -- are not PIOF. And I'm willing to bet that's a far larger number than that of actual, legitimate griefers. In terms of mechanics, this is no different from banning people of a particular ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. from your store because you once had a bad experience with someone from that community.

For most of my first four years in SL I was not PIOF. I didn't need to be: I earned enough from donations to my small business (and before that, from playing trivia) that I didn't need to bring money into the system. And yet I was still a contributing member of my communities.

The last guy who griefed my parcels -- FIVE times? He is an 11 year old account with a legacy name and PIOF.

Punish people for what they do, not for the fact that they belong to the same class as people you don't trust.

Pardon me. I meant to type "it had nothing to do with" because back then it didn't have anything to do with it. That doesn't mean things and people haven't changed since.

I'm going to bow out before someone else bites my head off for reading more into my post that what is there. 😬

[Jennifer Boyle]

According to the Federal Reserve, 83 percent of American adults had a credit card in 2020. It takes a reasonably good computer and internet connection to run SL, as well as free time. I suspect, but cannot prove, that a substantial proportion of the 17 percent with no credit card also lacked the other things necessary to enjoy SL, which would leave only a small percentage who could enjoy SL and who also had no credit card. My point is that requiring PIOF probably affects only a small percentage of SL users.

People here have talked about virtual credit cards as though they provide anonymity. The only virtual credit cards that I have used were on Citibank accounts; they provided no anonymity. What they did provide was a throwaway credit card number.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It is, by definition, classist.

Are non-PIOF users a "protected class"?

What definition "defines" the non-PIOF users as a "class", and the PIOF users as a "class"?

Is this just a "generally agreed-upon usage" of the words "class", i.e. "a group"?

It does not fit the "real life" classes such as "old, young, rich, poor, gay, straight, race", etc.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, EliseAnne85 said:

That's not the way I thought Silent meant for the "tool" to work.  I thought she means the tools is there as a way to prevent griefing for a short term duration, such as Aethelwine above is saying "a wave of griefers" coming in or as some people say "an army of alts" coming in.  It's a temporary and sometimes necessary tool to help end that situation, and it's need is for the short term.  Once the drama settles down, it can be switched off again to no payment info on file.  It's a tool but does not, in any way, need to be a permanent one.  I've seen certain sims have to use it for a few hours or perhaps a day.  The sim usually opens again by the next day.  I was in no way agreeing it should be on permanently.  I hope you understand what I am trying to express/say here.  

Yep. Dis here.

Thank you.

[Aethelwine]

1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Yep. Dis here.

Thank you.

Yes what I was thinking of was a situation I encountered a long time ago when I ran a biker region, another club or person thought I should ban furries from riding on it. I told them that I didn't have either the time or inclination to restrict access to the region to anyone. Then the region was repeatedly griefed with replicating objects from throw away accounts with no payment info on file and hence essentially anonymous. I reported and banned them, but also for a few days I put an age restriction and restricted access to payment info on file. Better that than removing rezzing, which is needed on a region set up for people to ride their vehicles. I removed the restriction as soon as I felt able a few days later, it served its purpose and the griefing ended. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Aethelwine

[Orwar]

2 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Kind of a non issue really.  I created an alt about a year ago to try out the Linden viewer and new user experience.  Never put payment info on her.  I've had her at dozens of places and not once has she been unable to enter.   So claims of discrimination against new residents seems pretty baseless.  Just my experience.

   I mean, calling it a non-issue based on 'just your experience' based on 'dozens of places' seems a bit weak, IMHO. SL has a quite large and healthy community of aviators and sailing enthusiasts, and a non-insignificant part of that community earn their L$ through selling in-world creations (such as paint jobs and vehicle customisation bits). And whenever someone who has PIOF plots and tests a route for an event, they have no way of noticing such hazards unless they check each individual parcel along the route; it isn't until the event when a crowd of people joins that a few of them will be hindered along the way for a totally arbitrary reason. If it were an instant orb it would be a hazard to everyone, and the route would be different. 

   I'm thinking a large part of the issue is that the option is there directly in the parcel access control panel as a checkbox, it would fit better in the 'list of silly parameters you might make an orb toss someone out'. It wouldn't 'remove' the problem, but it wouldn't remove the option, it would just make it take some effort to be a jerk.

1 hour ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

According to the Federal Reserve, 83 percent of American adults had a credit card in 2020. It takes a reasonably good computer and internet connection to run SL, as well as free time. I suspect, but cannot prove, that a substantial proportion of the 17 percent with no credit card also lacked the other things necessary to enjoy SL, which would leave only a small percentage who could enjoy SL and who also had no credit card. My point is that requiring PIOF probably affects only a small percentage of SL users.

   Ah yes, remind us how all SL residents are 'Murricans and that anyone who isn't don't matter.

[Aethelwine]

Considering the need for the function does seem so very limited, I have no objection to it being something that can only be used via some sort of security scripting like you would in an orb rather than as a parcel setting in just the same way age restrictions are accessed.

[Rowan Amore]

34 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   I mean, calling it a non-issue based on 'just your experience' based on 'dozens of places' seems a bit weak, IMHO. SL has a quite large and healthy community of aviators and sailing enthusiasts, and a non-insignificant part of that community earn their L$ through selling in-world creations (such as paint jobs and vehicle customisation bits). And whenever someone who has PIOF plots and tests a route for an event, they have no way of noticing such hazards unless they check each individual parcel along the route; it isn't until the event when a crowd of people joins that a few of them will be hindered along the way for a totally arbitrary reason. If it were an instant orb it would be a hazard to everyone, and the route would be different. 

   I'm thinking a large part of the issue is that the option is there directly in the parcel access control panel as a checkbox, it would fit better in the 'list of silly parameters you might make an orb toss someone out'. It wouldn't 'remove' the problem, but it wouldn't remove the option, it would just make it take some effort to be a jerk.

   Ah yes, remind us how all SL residents are 'Murricans and that anyone who isn't don't matter.

I haven't really seen any complaints about it anywhere.  0 second security orbs, yes.  30 day restriction, yes.  No PIOF, haven't seen it yet.  Not even from the very vocal boaters, flyers or riders.  That, along with my own experience, leads me to my conclusion of non issue.  YMMV

[Love Zhaoying]

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Edited February 24, 2023 by Love Zhaoying
Redid quote, new post.

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

 

🤔

Edited February 24, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Your quote got a little confused 🤔

Yep. I'll try and fix it. 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

And whenever someone who has PIOF plots and tests a route for an event, they have no way of noticing such hazards unless they check each individual parcel along the route; it isn't until the event when a crowd of people joins that a few of them will be hindered along the way for a totally arbitrary reason.

It seems to me, that "roads", which on Mainland are generally Public access, may be a somewhat obvious way to avoid this issue. Just a thot.

[LittleMe Jewell]

3 hours ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

According to the Federal Reserve, 83 percent of American adults had a credit card in 2020. It takes a reasonably good computer and internet connection to run SL, as well as free time. I suspect, but cannot prove, that a substantial proportion of the 17 percent with no credit card also lacked the other things necessary to enjoy SL, which would leave only a small percentage who could enjoy SL and who also had no credit card. My point is that requiring PIOF probably affects only a small percentage of SL users.

This assumes that SL consists all or mostly of just Americans.

Per https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/, based on 2021 data, for countries in Europe, the average percent of population with a credit card ranged from 5% to 74%.  For countries in Asia, that range is from 0% to 79% - but with the majority of the countries being lower than 50%. In South American, the range is from 3% to 40%, and the average is just over 50% for Australia.

I know we do get quite a few folks from those areas, so I don't know that we could just assume that the majority of SL folks have a credit card. 

And yes, there are plenty of people running SL on the barest potato hardware that they can manage to get it to run on.

 

[Coffee Pancake]

4 hours ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

I suspect, but cannot prove, that a substantial proportion of the 17 percent with no credit card also lacked the other things necessary to enjoy SL,

I do not have a credit card, obviously I am unworthy to participate in SL.

Much of the Catznip user base are from South America and running SL on potato computers. Are they too poor to be permissable?

The association between grifers (SL criminals) and a persons individual wealth or status is both classist and deeply offensive.

 

PIOF has no business being in the viewer and should be removed entirely. It is no one's business but mine if I have a finical relationship with Linden Lab, just like it's no one's business if I order from Amazon or if they will even deliver to my hovel.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Coffee Pancake

[Jennifer Boyle]

4 hours ago, Orwar said:

 Ah yes, remind us how all SL residents are 'Murricans and that anyone who isn't don't matter.

Why are you being gratuitously offensive? I did not say what you attribute to me, and I I had wanted to say that, it's what I would have said.

I could find data on what percentage of US adults have credit cards. AFAIK, there is no readily available data regarding what proportion of adults in the developed world have them.  If you have access to such data, please share it. Otherwise, I think it's reasonable to use the US data as an approximation for the developed world.

[LittleMe Jewell]

26 minutes ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

I could find data on what percentage of US adults have credit cards. AFAIK, there is no readily available data regarding what proportion of adults in the developed world have them.  If you have access to such data, please share it. Otherwise, I think it's reasonable to use the US data as an approximation for the developed world.

 

See my response, which does provide a website giving information about other countries:

2 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Per https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/, based on 2021 data, for countries in Europe, the average percent of population with a credit card ranged from 5% to 74%.  For countries in Asia, that range is from 0% to 79% - but with the majority of the countries being lower than 50%. In South American, the range is from 3% to 40%, and the average is just over 50% for Australia.

 

[Qie Niangao]

9 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Are non-PIOF users a "protected class"?

What definition "defines" the non-PIOF users as a "class", and the PIOF users as a "class"?

Is this just a "generally agreed-upon usage" of the words "class", i.e. "a group"?

It does not fit the "real life" classes such as "old, young, rich, poor, gay, straight, race", etc.

Not sure "poor" is a protected class either, although it's definitely a oft-distinguished one. Many real-world distinctions have more or less intentional overlap with socioeconomic class, and while they may not be comfortable, they're legal and common.

The door-keeper at a too-popular club is discriminating in favor of a desired crowd demographic which may well correlate with likelihood to order bottle service. We may deplore that, but surely such clubs are popular in part because they exclude the hoi polloi. To club owners, then, classism is a feature not a bug.

Should parcel access restrictions be able to include such fairly overt classism?

To be sure, I doubt PIOF is used for this purpose often or maybe ever, so it's pretty academic, but access to a snooty parcel wouldn't be the first crusade I'd choose to advance the economically downtrodden of the world, virtual or otherwise.

More practically: 

• I definitely agree that nothing of value would be lost if the PIOF information were only available to scripts, not to unscripted parcel access restrictions. (As long as it's exposed to scripts, it hardly matters whether it's in the viewer or not.)
• Whether there are valuable use cases for either Payment Info On File or Payment Info Used seems an open question; I'm not yet convinced that these should be removed from script access (if anybody was saying they should be).
• I'm also not yet convinced that PIOF is unreasonably difficult to obtain for people of limited means or in certain countries of origin. Maybe, but I'm not sure we actually know what it takes to put "payment info" (whatever that is) on file these days. At the same time, I'm not yet convinced it's unreasonably easy to obtain either, such that it (now?) poses no barrier of entry to griefer alt armies. Is it somehow simultaneously too easy to obtain for it to do any good, but so difficult to obtain that it does harm? Or is it only easy for the dishonest? Do we actually know any of this or are we telling ourselves just-so stories?

[Love Zhaoying]

20 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Do we actually know any of this or are we telling ourselves just-so stories?

My feeling from this thread is, it's "just so", because it should be "obvious", due to the "very definition of classicism". All these are very poor arguments. "Obviously", those who may disagree are wrong. Right? 

[Aethelwine]

I recall ten or so years ago when they finally stopped the third party exchanges German friends and some from Eastern Europe said they were no longer able to buy Linden dollars. Access to PayPal then seemed to be the issue, but I think for the most part things have moved on significantly for them. As an aside the stats on low numbers of people with credit cards is a little deceptive because in many countries people use debit cards. I know I have a debit card rather than a credit card.

All that said I only use restrictions on my land when it is in response to an ongoing attack. If anything I would want to encourage people that can't get payment info on file to visit, I have a nice selection of free vehicles I have collected over the years they can enjoy.

[Qie Niangao]

11 hours ago, Orwar said:

And whenever someone who has PIOF plots and tests a route for an event, they have no way of noticing such hazards unless they check each individual parcel along the route;

Yeah, as far as I can tell, a script cannot determine if a parcel requires PIOF. I wonder if there's interesting history here, though. At one point in 2007, documentation for llGetParcelFlags was elaborated to include some unassigned constants several of which look as if they may have been intended to identify parcels that restricted access from those without PIOF, those with PIOF, and those with payment info used :

Quote

PF_DENY_ANONYMOUS    0x00400000    
PF_DENY_IDENTIFIED    0x00800000    
PF_DENY_TRANSACTED    0x01000000    

then just a few days later the "ANONYMOUS" flag was annotated to have been "Deny all non identified/transacted accounts" and the other two were switched to red text with the footnote "PF_* flags in red have been removed from the source code, the values may get reassigned and reused for flags with different meanings!", all of which remains in the current wiki article for this function. Some cursory testing suggests they're all non-functional now, or at least not related to PIOF.

Does this mean they were thinking of removing the PIOF flag from the land itself, as well as making its land setting invisible to scripts? Or they were thinking of adding that visibility to scripts but never got around to it and then eventually abandoned the idea? I don't know, but it appears some courses were corrected hereabouts. 

[Orwar]

6 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Or they were thinking of adding that visibility to scripts but never got around to it and then eventually abandoned the idea?

   There are HUDs for spotting rez zones that a lot of people use in case they lose their vehicles along the way, so making a radar HUD which also included that information would probably be very helpful to those who don't have PIOF - at least then there'd be a chance to avoid such parcels. 

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

[...] but access to a snooty parcel wouldn't be the first crusade I'd choose to advance the economically downtrodden of the world, virtual or otherwise.

   Probably not, although sometimes when the big issues are complex monstrosities to tackle, trimming off a few minor issues that don't require a major change to the world order do help! 

   .. Then again, SL being SL, pulling out the tick-box from the parcel management menu could well kill the world map dead for half a year for all I know. 

[colleen Criss]

I thought that came about as an age check thingy.

[EliseAnne85]

Question:  Can bots be payment info on file (PIOF)?  If bots cannot be PIOF, I'd suspect this is why we might find some land owners using PIOF currently - because of bots.  If this is the case, there needs to be another way to ban bots.  

 

[Ardy Lay]

This topic is literally to contentions for me, but, I am going to share my opinion that the PIOF restriction on land access stopped being useful shortly after it was added, because the net result was to cause the bad actors to work at obtaining control of other people's Second Life accounts, and bad actors did indeed put a heck of a lot of work into methods of taking over other people's Second Life accounts.  The net result was we lost several friends as those friends lost their own accounts and Linden Lab did nothing to help the people whose accounts were lost to password guessing, social engineering and other methods.

[Lucia Nightfire]

I have an adult application that requires 30 days, PIOF and PIU to gain access.

My lobby, though, only has a 18+ restriction which allows noobs/alts to at least enter and see the wares I offer and get a notecard that explains the service in case they want to come back later with their paid account. It also allows them to click my ad boards.

The reason for the 30 days, PIOF and PIU restrictions for actual access to the service is not only to deter grief, but to deter fraud.

Prior to running my own adult service, I dealt with Linden Assessments doing AFK for 3 years with an alt in places that had no access restrictions.

In the almost 4 years I've run my own adult service with the restrictions above, I've yet to incur a single Linden Assessment.

A Linden Assessment is money debited from your account due to someone previously paying you with fraudulently obtained money.

Will it deter ALL grief/fraud? No. Is any setup perfect? No.