Marketplace issues (Feb 14 around 2pm SL time)

[Andred Darwin]

Anybody else seeing several issues with the Marketplace right now? (Feb 14th,  2pm SL Time)

- Items not showing on search, in fact, search is broken right now.
- Indexing / sort (Relevance) showing completely out of order compared to normal.
- Marketplace now showing 10000 items as found (Instead of the usual 7 million something)

Several other issues within the listings management screen...

[Arwen Serpente]

It started maybe 2 hours ago - I filed a ticket. No response yet and nothing on the grid status yet.

[Camellia Crisp]

I just realized it now. I have the same problem. Search in the marketplace is in a terrible state. I hope that the problem will be solved soon.

[Zidaya Zenovka]

Wishlist listing 'low to high' price has been broken for over six months now. 

[Samara Sharkfin]

It looks to me that they just changed the way how the search syntax works.  (...and said nothing :)

Before you could enter    lace reborn   now you need to enter  lace AND reborn  to have the previous result.
If you search now   lace reborn   you get also genitals and shoes (without lace).

Before you could enter 5. BAMSE : Bushido - Lamp   now you need to enter  "5. BAMSE : Bushido - Lamp".

If you enter  5. BAMSE : Bushido - Lamp  as before, you get nothing that has to do with any of those words, until 50 results or so, where you get something "similar", but not what you entered.

I believe this was there since years, but not "totally true" 😁

Edited February 15, 2023 by Samara Sharkfin
syntax

[Wulfie Reanimator]

44 minutes ago, Samara Sharkfin said:

Before you could enter    lace reborn   now you need to enter  lace AND reborn  to have the previous result.
If you search now   lace reborn   you get also genitals and shoes (without lace).

The second part would happen before as well - if your query had multiple words, any product that matched any of the words would be included as a result.

The yellow instructions popup used to only talk about the AND/OR/NOT part. The quotes and asterisk is new and really nice.

[Sira Scarbridge]

AND needs to be the default. How often do you really need an OR search? This annoys me to no end.

The universe seems intent on making search engines more and more useless by bombarding you with irrelevant results (Yes, I'm also looking at you, Google).

 

[Unicorn Enchantment]

This was very frustrating to me last night trying to find specialized furry body parts & shoes compatible with some of the foot options. If something is not perfectly tagged it will not show up. Not everyone understands the importance of keywording their products correctly unfortunately.

The 10k item limit though is odd.

[Andred Darwin]

Thanks to a couple acquaintances of mine in-world and out of the grid for some bits and pieces of info. (Opening a support ticket, you will get you just the same canned answers as usual, even though hopefully they will work on your case)

Seems like... this is the new so called "new search engine" talked about in the Web Group for ages.... 

The only way to search for something and find it in the marketplace is by using quotes,  even then, you "may" find it if you use exact words... also seems like "Relevance" as we learned in school, and described in the dictionary is gone.... it simply doesn't work as of now... search is useless without quotes.

To me, I guess, try something and have to tweak, it's fine and probably part of the process ( Not that a company that has been around for almost 20 years trying to do the same thing over and over again, probably should have learned a thing or two already... ).

The part that is puzzling to understand,  why not give a simple heads up, either as a blog, email or at the status page... instead just throw it out there... hide behind the wall and leave everyone wondering? A simple "Hey guys we are toying with the marketplace over the next few weeks, please expect issues such as.....".

A chunk of users had the same issue with listings at the marketplace last week (merchant site), as some are going through as of yesterday including me, I'm sure there are more, they just didn't notice yet and there will probably be more over the next few days/weeks....

To the web team, we are better than that! 

@Patch Linden @Dakota Linden @Grumpity Linden

Edited February 15, 2023 by Andred Darwin

[steeljane42]

That's not how normal search engines work by default (even if they do have such and many more options for the advanced users), so expecting people to know (or bother) to use all the boolen when they just want to find a "legacy black dress" is rather optimistic at best too. They'll just get frustrated it shows them random stuff and close the MP.

Perhaps that's why it'll be fixed/changed, though. Since LL takes 10% cut per MP transaction and a fee when merchants cash out, they'll notice the drop in MP sales/cashing out (because MP sales will be less for merchants) and might actually check why it's happening. But we'll see.

I'm glad I don't really use the MP,  though. It was barely usable before, now it somehow became even worse.

Edited February 15, 2023 by steeljane42

[Yeya Zuta]

When you search something on Amazon, they don't ask you to use "boolen". They like to sell items (what is your target group?), and they will suggest "Maybe you like this too" as a similar / relevance option or "Other costumers who search for this items also looked at....." I.e. Marketplace is 'Geeking out'. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Yeya Zuta

[Andred Darwin]

Jira ticket:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-233391

[Flea Yatsenko]

Every additional step that a potential customer has to take to get to a product is a lost sale. The default response for a user trying to find something is to search just by typing in a raw query, lace reborn, and if the results are not relevant, they just assume it doesn't exist, not that the search engine isn't working properly. Considering LL takes  a hefty commission from each sale and they want to change their revenue from land tier to sales, you'd think they'd want to increase sales for everyone. The only users who know to start using quotes and booleans are the power users (congrats to you if you use them, you're probably in the top 10% of search engine users), most people just give up and assume it doesn't exist.

They direly need a data expert who can somehow waddle through the free for all of marketplace listings and can correlate products with other products, as well as provide a highly effective search. It needs to be ran like an ecommerce site like Amazon, Google Shopping, Wayfair, Overstock, you get my drift.

Also, get rid of useless classified ads and create an expensive, manual review system where products can be grouped on the home page. I.E. you pay and things get grouped into "male mesh body accessories" that's a big category on the front page.

Something like this but converted to SL would be amazing. Just imagine going to marketplace and seeing products you actually want to use and buy, and they're on sale.

There's so much they can do but they keep thinking search is the end all, be all. This is not a search engine, it's a commerce site. Look at when you go to Amazon logged in, it shoves things you've bought and similar items in your face. You can find stuff to buy on Amazon that you want without even having to use search.

Meanwhile, front page of marketplace is so irrelevant to me, suggesting me female body parts and all sorts of weird stuff. It's not that difficult to create a personalized homepage for marketplace, just grab the keywords for a user's previous purchased items and search for items they haven't bought yet and sort by whatever you've been using. I'm sure someone might complain about privacy but what Google, Amazon, etc are doing dwarfs anything like I'm proposing.

[Arwen Serpente]

5 minutes ago, Andred Darwin said:

Jira ticket:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-233391

Excellent! Thank you for posting that link. Voted/watching it. I had just responded to my support ticket (to Dakota Linden) with the same sentiment/message. I hope the Lab will acknowledge that this change is going to kill sales (if it hasn't started already).

[Yeya Zuta]

6 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

I'm sure someone might complain about privacy but what Google, Amazon, etc are doing dwarfs anything like I'm proposing.

I think you can just opt-out for history search, shouldn't be an obstacle to make a functioning Marketplace. 

[Andred Darwin]

Well, I really appreciate of all the improvements the past year to the game/system as a whole, its way better, looks better... but this Web team in SL... I can tell you... its quite something... 

The list keeps growing: my.secondlife.com, places.secondlife.com, account page and limited transactions history, in-world search, privacy settings that don't sync with in-world ( or maybe we just don't know how to use it ).... now the marketplace too?

It's probably the only team that didn't show any meaningful improvement ( at least noticeable from a user standpoint, a colorful land page? ) after the new ownership unlike the Server/Viewer teams, in fact, compared to the time before the new ownership, the Server and Viewer teams are just "Fast and Furious". Which is great! Would be nice to see the Web team producing meaningful results too, could we at least focus on Fix and not messing up?

In-world search at least looks better, but to the extent that people (or I) would use it... or any improved relevance to the results in general compared to what it used to be, the only ones that tell me in-world search is better, more relevant or accurate is the Web team itself when telling me to search for Maitreya store... not one friend or acquaintance ever tells me is better now or even know how to use it. 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Andred Darwin

[Deadly Bunny]

I just noticed this today and I cant really find anything on the search with this setup. All the stuff under revelance look new and has no reviews on it. I dont even trust it nomore and I hope they fix it.

[Ardy Lay]

Nah, Amazon's front page when logged in is STUPID.  It keeps trying to sell to me another of every DURABLE GOODS item I have ever purchased via Amazon.  I don't need another hydraulic jack, trailer hitch, potable water hose, replacement battery for a notebook computer, set of wheel-chocks made from recycled plastic, set of garden gate hinges, water pump, water tank, back-flow preventer, mailbox, mailbox post, set of 5 keyed-alike padlocks, folding aluminum ladder, self-install pet fence kit, wall-mount floodlight, reflective driveway markers,  garden greenhouse kit,  100' electric extension cord,  self-install electric vehicle charger,  etc.  That stuff belongs in account order history, and hey, it's there too.  Show "hot items", "seasonal items", "special price offers", etc would be welcome, and some of that happens, but what it mostly does it infect every search attempt with Amazon brands and Sponsored products before it lists what I am trying to get it to list, some damn thing I have never purchased via Amazon.

Save showing recent purchases on login for things like groceries and other "consumables" like paper products and laundry aids, please.

Now, how does this translate to Second Life Marketplace?  Pretty damned directly, possibly with the exception of I don't purchase consumables there.  I don't buy bait for fishing or food for breedables, but I am sure some people do.  Perhaps use something to categorically exclude those exact duplicates and functional equivalents from return-presentation and save that valuable space for things that go well with them and things that people collect multiples of, like jelly for that peanutbutter or maybe blouses that go with that skirt.

/me runs off before she starts ranting about fifth-order data normalization.

[Andred Darwin]

5 hours ago, Arwen Serpente said:

Excellent! Thank you for posting that link. Voted/watching it. I had just responded to my support ticket (to Dakota Linden) with the same sentiment/message. I hope the Lab will acknowledge that this change is going to kill sales (if it hasn't started already).

I'm also adding as many examples as I can to the support ticket, Dakota did a great job trying to explain how it "works", it all makes sense... the only problem is that doesn't really work how it's described.

At least right now, search does not take in consideration any exact match of the search terms, it's a just a full basket (10000 items) of items that may remotely match the search... based on whatever voodoo algorithm ( from personal experience, the more you try to tweak search, more you screw it! ).

Example:

A very random search term: Blue Shirt 

Only 5 items in the first page are actually a shirt, none of them are blue... a bunch of female hair is shown (none are blue either), and a bunch of items that have nothing to do with it... how does that help? hehehehe

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/products/search?utf8=✓&search[category_id]=&search[maturity_level]=GM&search[keywords]=blue+shirt

Doesn't make any sense... thank Lord they didn't want to release it,  until they were sure they would get it right,  as they said on a recent video and meetings! Imagine what would it be if they didn't even look at it!

Also, now all searches are capped to 10000 results, ok.... who would look over 10000 results... at the same time, 10000 results where the majority don't even relate to the search terms! Relevance?

Also, seems like items you add as Paid Subscription (Categories or Main Page) seem to be penalized by the search engine... views with no sales! Go figure!!! (Look at your own store, select Best Selling, see if match at all with your report Top Selling Items.... and then check the position of any item you have as a paid ad/subscription )

A search result without exact matches showing first is useless... require the use of quotes is extremely odd just to get some "relevance".

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Andred Darwin

[Rowan Amore]

What I've noticed the last 2 days are really really old items showing first under relevance.  Even when I switch to newest first, the new items I KNOW should be there, are not.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

What I've noticed the last 2 days are really really old items showing first under relevance.  Even when I switch to newest first, the new items I KNOW should be there, are not.

Just one of the many Search Improvements underway. More are coming soon!

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Ardy Lay said:

/me runs off before she starts ranting about fifth-order data normalization.

Wow, we only had to ever do fourth-order.

* bowing before superior inellect! *

[Flea Yatsenko]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

What I've noticed the last 2 days are really really old items showing first under relevance.  Even when I switch to newest first, the new items I KNOW should be there, are not.

SL has been doing this for a long time. I would (and still do) go through phases where I would sell outdated sculpty stuff like crazy and no one would touch the mesh or material+mesh stuff. It was pretty baffling to me until I went into my store and started sorting things, only to find it would bury some of my complex and fan favorite builds in favor of things like sculpty rocks and outdated stuff that I just keep around as legacy content because people still want it on rare occasion. If I go to my store and search by relevant it's all really old stuff. I have no idea why it goes through phases like this. But it's doing it now, and I'm assuming sort by relevancy applies with or without a query like it does with other search I deal develop with. All my sales are organic and rely on search and word of mouth. So my store is pretty sensitive to changes in marketplace sorting and other changes.

4 hours ago, Ardy Lay said:

Nah, Amazon's front page when logged in is STUPID.  It keeps trying to sell to me another of every DURABLE GOODS item I have ever purchased via Amazon.  I don't need another hydraulic jack, trailer hitch, potable water hose, replacement battery for a notebook computer, set of wheel-chocks made from recycled plastic, set of garden gate hinges, water pump, water tank, back-flow preventer, mailbox, mailbox post, set of 5 keyed-alike padlocks, folding aluminum ladder, self-install pet fence kit, wall-mount floodlight, reflective driveway markers,  garden greenhouse kit,  100' electric extension cord,  self-install electric vehicle charger,  etc.  That stuff belongs in account order history, and hey, it's there too.  Show "hot items", "seasonal items", "special price offers", etc would be welcome, and some of that happens, but what it mostly does it infect every search attempt with Amazon brands and Sponsored products before it lists what I am trying to get it to list, some damn thing I have never purchased via Amazon.

For me Amazon shows things I was searching for but didn't buy, more things I was searching for and didn't buy, then items related to what I've purchased in the past. At the very least it has a remote clue of what I'm interested in. Marketplace not so much. If marketplace was smart enough to know which mesh body you've been purchasing stuff for, and then show you similar clothing and styles I think it'd be a huge improvement to randomly showing you featured ads. Nothing ever really breaks or degrades in SL like it does in RL but there's lots of complimentary products to things people buy. I.E. you buy stuff to decorate your house then it starts showing you more home decorations instead of stuff completely irrelevant to me.

But regarding normalization I thought search used something like Elasticsearch and not database, but that wouldn't surprise me I guess if it did just query the database for search.

 

[Aishagain]

Well, I don't know what is wrong but MP search is VERY broken tonight, I cannot even search simple two word terms now.  It was gimpy a couple of days back but now it is just plain broken.

Until this is sorted it is utterly useless for me.

ETA Irony: I tried to access search from outside SL not using ANY viewer, and it is the same.  Guess what, LL support suggested I tried using the default viewer, as if that was significant!

FETA:  I tried seaching a two word term using quotation marks (ie "Ballet boots") and lo and behold I got almost all the correct results!! Using the same words and any other operand or boolean function did NOT work.  This was from outside SL using my SL login.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Aishagain

[Andred Darwin]

5 hours ago, Andred Darwin said:

A very random search term: Blue Shirt 

Only 5 items in the first page are actually a shirt, none of them are blue... a bunch of female hair is shown (none are blue either), and a bunch of items that have nothing to do with it... how does that help? hehehehe

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/products/search?utf8=✓&search[category_id]=&search[maturity_level]=GM&search[keywords]=blue+shirt

Doesn't make any sense... thank Lord they didn't want to release it,  until they were sure they would get it right,  as they said on a recent video and meetings! Imagine what would it be if they didn't even look at it!

Also, now all searches are capped to 10000 results, ok.... who would look over 10000 results... at the same time, 10000 results where the majority don't even relate to the search terms! Relevance?

Funny... do that same search at google.com using search term (or any term you want...)

blue shirt site:marketplace.secondlife.com

That is relevance, and no quotes! (I had to quote myself on this one...)

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Andred Darwin