Anti consumer practices from vendors

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

I agree, but the way to deal with it is not to pillory suspected bad actors publicly but to submit Abuse Reports and let Linden  Lab do a proper investigation to gather facts before punishing a suspected shady merchant.  I know that investigations are slow and often inconclusive, but the alternative is vigilante justice.  Personally, I would be irate if someone posted public venom about me.  I'm sure that you would too.

I personally agree with you that this forum is not the place to do this, because it would potentially turn this place into a hell hole of retributive accusations and arguments. Nor do I think that an unmoderated external site would work for the same reason: it would become a consumer-oriented version of Virtual Secrets (which, actually, VS already is, to some degree).

But you also know that this would be pointless, right? LL wouldn't even look at a report of someone being fleeced for anything less than thousands of RL dollars, yet alone "investigate" it.

[Rolig Loon]

3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It would only be patently unfair if one persons opinions we're allowed to stand in isolation, this is a forum, that's not what would happen.

You and I have been in these forums long enough to know that's not true.  Claims and counter-claims would fly, equally vulnerable to misinformation and biased claims. Small irritants would be blown out of proportion, held up as examples of other suspected but as yet undetected problems.  The merchant might not even be aware of the claims until the thread had gone well off the rails.  Vigilante justice cannot be fair, and it can cause long-lasting damage to reputations.

[Rolig Loon]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But you also know that this would be pointless, right? LL wouldn't even look at a report of someone being fleeced for anything less than thousands of RL dollars, yet alone "investigate" it.

Yes, I do, Scylla. Just as I know that small complaints in RL are often lost in the justice system.  I am not arguing that the Abuse Report system is ideal, or even effective in all instances. It is, however, the only system we have that is evidence-based and has the promise of making a fair determination of the facts. An imperfect system is still better than public lynchings.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Rolig Loon said:

Yes, I do, Scylla. Just as I know that small complaints in RL are often lost in the justice system.  I am not arguing that the Abuse Report system is ideal, or even effective in all instances. It is, however, the only system we have that is evidence-based and has the promise of making a fair determination of the facts. An imperfect system is still better than public lynchings.

I was mislead over a few hundred L$ by a merchant who lied by omission .. that's never going to be something with any kind of actionable abuse reportable, what would LL even do, investigate ..

There is no system for this, none at all, not investigative, not imperfect, simply not even present. I paid my money. I lost. Good day.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

My own "Rules for Vendors" list is growing, thanks to y'all.

- Must offer and/or sell Demos.

- Must clearly identify Fatpacks.

- Must not operate on a "Store Credit" system.

- Products (HUDs, scripts, etc.) must not require communication with an external server.

- Must clearly identify which Mesh bodies/heads products work with (if applicable).

- Must have a support group.

- Must have both a Marketplace and in-world store. Must sell at the same price in both.

- Must have Reviews on Marketplace.

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[Sid Nagy]

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- must be cheap as dirt and have quality like a million bucks.

- must jump through every possible hoop available

- must include a pony

- must be modify

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Edited January 14, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Pixie Kobichenko]

Agreed.  A few years back I stupidly paid waaaay too much money upfront for one of those portraits where someone draws in hair & extra Doo-dads.  This person seemed reputable- their pictures were in a lot of profiles.  Had a posted 2 week turn around for delivery & that’s when they said it would be done.  Session seemed fine & person was nice.  I never heard from them after the shoot so I sent an notecard & IM asking at 3 weeks post photo shoot & then the next week if they had an updated timeframe.  Crickets.  Absolutely zero recourse.  (Edit- after fuming a bit I found other photographers-editors who had better business practices.  I bought several sessions for myself, and then gifted a session to 3 friends after for the holidays so *finger expression* to those who rip folks off)

Edited January 14, 2023 by Pixie Kobichenko

[Coffee Pancake]

21 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

My own "Rules for Vendors" list is growing, thanks to y'all.

 

 

This is kinda my point, this shouldn't be how it is.

We're invested, we suck it up, we start pouty forum threads.

Every item on our personal rules for shopping is a lesson leant at a cost, its not just once, it's getting burnt dozen of times. You can't even assume one vendor good today will be good tomorrow. Realistically .. 20% of my fashion budget goes down the tubes because even though I did all the steps, I still ended up with junk.

 

So how does that track with a new user and their first few thousand and no shopping rules.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Coffee Pancake

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

So how does that track with a new user and their first few thousand and no shopping rules.

The same response as is given in every other one of these these threads from the least to the greatest, Caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware.

Until there is a unity of residents agreed that S/L needs to do something to give some form of buyer protection, this will just continue. 

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is kinda my point, this shouldn't be how it is.

We're invested, we suck it up, we start pouty forum threads.

Every item on our personal rules for shopping is a lesson leant at a cost, its not just once, it's getting burnt dozen of times. You can't even assume one vendor good today will be good tomorrow. Realistically .. 20% of my fashion budget goes down the tubes because even though I did all the steps, I still ended up with junk.

 

So how does that track with a new user and their first few thousand and no shopping rules.

Part of my point is, we learn from each other's mistakes and suffering. Most of the things on my list, I learned from these Forums - not from my own mistakes.

Kind of like How not to get "scammed", not get phished, not give out your personal information, not click unknown links, not believe misinformation. Education. There's a certain amount of personal responsibility. 

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Until there is a unity of residents agreed that S/L needs to do something to give some form of buyer protection, this will just continue. 

LL did give everyone Torches and Swords in our Libraries. Not sure if they are for protests, rioting, or self-defense.

[EliseAnne85]

28 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

buyer protection, this will just continue

I used to have a clause and it was 'if you are unhappy for any reason, I will exchange for any product/s of the same amount'.  It's still pretty much the same.  If someone is unhappy...Immma gonna send them lots of free stuff as it's copyable to me and it's not a big deal to make customers feel happy and appreciated as well.  I've also experienced the same.  A big name SL company took me on a free shopping spree in her store and let me pick out all kinds of items.  

Edited January 14, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Must not operate on a "Store Credit" system.

When you say this, what do you exactly mean? 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Must not operate on a "Store Credit" system.

When you say this, what do you exactly mean? 

Where if you buy in-world, some merchants required you to buy "credits" and use those in their store, instead of buying directly with L$.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Where if you buy in-world, some merchants required you to buy "credits" and use those in their store, instead of buying directly with L$.

Oh that is just a convoluted system, I would rather pay with L. Than have to buy credit and then purchase it. 

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

Oh that is just a convoluted system, I would rather pay with L. Than have to buy credit and then purchase it. 

They give you "bonus credits" BUT you have leftover credits you can't spend, no way to convert it to L$, and when they go out of business, you're SOL. Some "big" company did that in SL, I can't remember if it was bodies, heads, etc.

[Sammy Huntsman]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

They give you "bonus credits" BUT you have leftover credits you can't spend, no way to convert it to L$, and when they go out of business, you're SOL. Some "big" company did that in SL, I can't remember if it was bodies, heads, etc.

It was both bodies and heads, and they had levels like you had bronze silver and gold style body and head. Which costed a bit more each level. 

[Rowan Amore]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

They give you "bonus credits" BUT you have leftover credits you can't spend, no way to convert it to L$, and when they go out of business, you're SOL. Some "big" company did that in SL, I can't remember if it was bodies, heads, etc.

TMP did that but I've never run into it anywhere else.  Now, earning store credit with each purchase is awesome.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

TMP did that but I've never run into it anywhere else.  Now, earning store credit with each purchase is awesome.

Thanks, couldn't remember who did that.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Companies should not be able to use third-party renders for their ads and they can't just take a face off of Google and fit it to a head. With a little editing they call it a skin. That has always bugged me. 

[EliseAnne85]

2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

But you will never know which one stalked me from a meh SLM review, spent 2 hours (H O U R S) threatening me personally in IM and saying I would be banned from his store

The above is not okay.  I believe under the SL TOS one cannot threaten another although I haven't fact checked that by checking in with the TOS.  

Plus the above can scare someone into never wanting to make a peep again.  Sheesh, how horrible.  

We are the residents, I guess we'd have to make some kind of guidelines for sellers but then who knows who would come after us.  So, I feel like saying all is well, all is fine, never mind what I just said.  This is why I don't advertise what I sell on SL forums period.  I ran into "a crazy" once myself when I told the woman she was selling copy/mod stuff in the building full perm section and she went nutzo.  

Edited January 14, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Ceka Cianci]

4 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

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- must be cheap as dirt and have quality like a million bucks.

- must jump through every possible hoop available

- must include a pony

- must be modify

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Copy and pasted to mah list ! \o/

[Paul Hexem]

5 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

I agree, but the way to deal with it is not to pillory suspected bad actors publicly but to submit Abuse Reports and let Linden  Lab do a proper investigation to gather facts before punishing a suspected shady merchant.

Really? Usually I do the trolling around here.

Or did you forget that LL are the people that think an empty box called "Box of animations" sold for 2,000 US dollars is totally acceptable behavior?

[CaithLynnSayes]

8 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Had them do far worse over marketplace reviews - which totally should be anonymous .. if only scumbag creators wouldn't abuse it more than they already do to 💩 on their "competitors".

We couldn't even set up an external review site for people to anon post reviews and pictures as they would DMCA it.

I script for a handful of creators (it's how i make a living in SL) and i remember a pretty scummy story.

One of the creators i work for has obtained the rights for real life images of "something" (i won't be specific for obvious reasons, i hope) and it turns out another bigger, more established creator is using the same materials and also has obtained rights to use these but they DMCA'ed the creator i work for. They did not want to open a lawsuit because they wanted to protect their RL identity but contacted both SL and the bigger creator showing both of them they have the rights to those materials. LL obviously went to the "resident to resident" excuse and did not want to be involved. The bigger creator did not want to acknowledge this proof of those rights and gave some more threats. We've informed LL on this but nothing came from that as well.

In the end we had to go with different materials and we still occasionally get review bombed or attacks in all sorts of manners.

The point i'm making is that creators in the same field (in this case, the pixel boom-boom industry) are very competitieve and won't shy away of trying to disable competition in a really scummy way. Sadly LL seems to favor the bigger creator that makes them more money.

[CaithLynnSayes]

7 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I am lost here, Coffee Pancake.  This has never happened to me before.  Could you explain why you cannot tell a single color from the fatpack?  

I know of countless examples as well, but as @Coffee Pancake said in the opening posts, we can't name and shame, so... yeah...