LL should buy the Cinnamon and Chai bodies from Slink

[EliseAnne85]

1 hour ago, steeljane42 said:

A few smaller creators I know personally have dropped Maitreya last year and only create for the Legacy+Reborn now and their sales didn't suffer much, as things they create are all aimed at the specific crowd that is very unlikely to use Maitreya anymore.

I've seen many creator's drop Maitreya as well because well...the curvy gurls are more fun.  lol   But, no not really, we all can be fun or not fun at times.  Maitreya gurls really are fun too.

But, on the serious side though something had to give as it's just too much work to make clothing for all these bodies, it really is.  It's all those extra added upload costs plus you have to make demos for all the things too.  On the human end of things, I created only for Maitreya but if I do come back to create in perhaps a year or so, maybe Summer 2024 when the recession is said will possibly be over, I will see what I like and what is selling plus I am looking forward to NUX.  So, I will be creating for only 2 or 3 bodies that I  like.  I think NUX will pull us out of an SL slump somewhere in about a year or so.  At least I'm hoping so.  The economy is really bad right now and I don't see that adding Cinnamon Chai will pull SL out of that right now.  Not to mention the SL market isn't hurting for things to buy; SL market is very saturated except for newer ones, but still, even with original stuff that I made that has no other things like it at all were not selling.  I work for niche markets more than human to fill voids and have been successful all the while...until now.  I've never seen such a slow down.  But, creator's cannot keep putting out money in a heavily saturated market and not sell.  It's impossible.  

[MoiraKathleen]

If I remember correctly Cinnamon and Chai have a unique UV so only clothes specifically made for them will fit.  I can't remember seeing any inclusion of sizes for them outside of some clothes from 1BadPixel that were remade to include them.  

If they were to be starter avatars, it would be like that one set of starter avatars a number of years ago that were labeled as "mesh bodies" but I don't think any creators picked up on rigging for them.  When people came here to the forums trying to find clothes for them, we told them to change to one of the older starter avatars that could wear standard sized and system clothes. 

[norajulian]

15 hours ago, AzureWaves said:

I wear Maitreya now, but if Maitreya disappeared, I would just go around as a floating head because all the other bodies look like blown up ballon animals with huge butts. The popular mesh list doesn’t say much in regards to good taste.

I like my curves as much as the next lass, and while I try to keep my shape somewhat close to my RL - I would encourage you to venture out if your chosen avatar ceases! Plenty of bodies now (reborn *ahem*) have shared kits that allow for modifiers to be made if you prefer a flatter peach. ❤️ 

 

RE: other responses - 
At the end of the day, most of us forumites have been around the block for several years, and we were FAR uglier when we started than the current mesh starter avatars. The success of rigging whatever new creation they come up with will come largely with the support of current and older users such as us who elect to move from the mesh avatars that we’ve spent thousands of Ls on.. to the starter avatars that LL releases. After all, I think we’re forgetting a critical part in this discussion - designers will only rig for the body types that make them money, as well they should. 

Do you see yourself moving to a starter avatar? Do you see yourself creating new content for new users to SL who are FAR less likely to put $$$ into this virtual world than those of us who are obviously here to stay, 5, 10, 15 years later, who have obviously put time and value into it? 
 

Chances are, no matter what new release LL comes up with, unless they can hit it out of the park with a marketing tactic that will hit LL users on a widespread viewpoint (unlikely given their need for professionalism), it simply won’t take off… including the bodies from Slink. 

[EliseAnne85]

9 minutes ago, norajulian said:

Do you see yourself moving to a starter avatar?

I haven't seen the girl yet but I've seen the guy and I think he's cute.  I have designed for men's clothes too because I read and saw so many posts on here lurking that men were so sick of jeans and tanks, jeans and tanks, jeans and tanks.  So, I made some posh fashion for guys.  I only do the design and texturing but I've sold tons for the guys as well as other niche things I've done.  The thing is the new NUX avatars may be more optimized as far as the mesh and scripts and may do well.  We'll have to see.

But, I have only ever been female on the grid.  I don't want to be a guy, I just use the body as my model for pictures but I have no more problem designing for men than I do china dishes.

I'd design for the guy.  The girl I know nothing of.

As far as older bodies, oh my goodness, Pure Poison is selling items for 10 and 19 lindens for mostly all the older bodies including Maitreya.  If the pack has Legacy the items are 199 to 499.  I follow trends when I have time.  What I have been seeing and said in my other posts, Maitreya is not as popular as that graph showed.   People want something different and the curvier bodies provide that because we never had it before but it also will be replaced by something different some day.  NUX, I'm interested in finding out more.

[Dorientje Woller]

2 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I haven't seen the girl yet but I've seen the guy and I think he's cute.  I have designed for men's clothes too because I read and saw so many posts on here lurking that men were so sick of jeans and tanks, jeans and tanks, jeans and tanks.  So, I made some posh fashion for guys.  I only do the design and texturing but I've sold tons for the guys as well as other niche things I've done.  The thing is the new NUX avatars may be more optimized as far as the mesh and scripts and may do well.  We'll have to see.

But, I have only ever been female on the grid.  I don't want to be a guy, I just use the body as my model for pictures but I have no more problem designing for men than I do china dishes.

I'd design for the guy.  The girl I know nothing of.

As far as older bodies, oh my goodness, Pure Poison is selling items for 10 and 19 lindens for mostly all the older bodies including Maitreya.  If the pack has Legacy the items are 199 to 499.  I follow trends when I have time.  What I have been seeing and said in my other posts, Maitreya is not as popular as that graph showed.   People want something different and the curvier bodies provide that because we never had it before but it also will be replaced by something different some day.  NUX, I'm interested in finding out more.

"People want something different and the curvier bodies provide that because we never had it before but it also will be replaced by something different some day.  NUX, I'm interested in finding out more." ... Assumption is the mother of all screw ups, as demostrated by Slink. And newer doesn't mean always better ... improvement does.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Dorientje Woller

[Ceka Cianci]

4 hours ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

LL has an unlimited license to do anything they want with anything that anyone uploads. They don't have to cut deals unless they want to.

They wouldn't be around as long as they have been if they took something meant to streamline their business and started to abuse it. Let them start to do what they want with those that have been keeping second life's heart beating this whole time.. They've already had panic over section 2.3 in the past and made it clear that it's not their intention to cut off their own blood supply..

They could do a lot of things if they wanted to, but they haven't because it's much healthier not to..

 

 

 

 

[EliseAnne85]

7 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

 Assumption is the mother of all screw ups, as demostrated by Slink. And newer doesn't mean always better ... improvement does.

I never said newer was better.  I said we never had bodies like these before and that they are different, meaning something we never had before.  But, they are a hit just like SLINK was with it's feet.  

Improved doesn't always mean better for more consumer consumption either - not when it's anything goes here in SL as far as building and most people in SL don't know what "improved" is because they are aren't into the technical aspects of SL.  

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Theresa Tennyson]

9 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

 

As far as older bodies, oh my goodness, Pure Poison is selling items for 10 and 19 lindens for mostly all the older bodies including Maitreya.  If the pack has Legacy the items are 199 to 499.  I follow trends when I have time.  What I have been seeing and said in my other posts, Maitreya is not as popular as that graph showed.  

Those prices are meaningless. If a clothing item contains items for more than one body, it's literally impossible to say which of those bodies it's being bought for. The reason older items are less expensive is that the assumption is people who would have bought them at full price already did.

[Psyche Starling]

1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Those prices are meaningless. If a clothing item contains items for more than one body, it's literally impossible to say which of those bodies it's being bought for. The reason older items are less expensive is that the assumption is people who would have bought them at full price already did.

And one thing I've noticed while buying full perm mesh is that literally everything includes Maitreya. Old stuff, new stuff, Maitreya's in everything. I've also thought about making some of my own things cheaper when they're for the older bodies, and it's not because I think Maitreya users won't buy both things; it's because I think there's a smaller market out there for the Belleza/Slink/fitmesh sizes than for the Legacy/Kupra/Reborn sizes. Or just because the item itself looks more dated, because, well, it's old.

[EliseAnne85]

9 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Those prices are meaningless. If a clothing item contains items for more than one body, it's literally impossible to say which of those bodies it's being bought for. The reason older items are less expensive is that the assumption is people who would have bought them at full price already did.

Possible, but I think it's better to agree to disagree on this one because there are always people where it's new to them.  It's not like those items are defunct and not all people shop "newest only" on MP.  I never do.  I go thru different parts of the menu.  An older item means absolutely nothing to me if I like it.  And, I like all kinds of styles.  That stuff for 10 and 19 lindens at Pure Poison on MP doesn't look dated to me.  Some of those items are classic which to me means never goes out of style.

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Psyche Starling]

1 minute ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Possible, but I think it's better to agree to disagree on this one because there are always people where it's new to them.  It's not like those items are defunct and not all people shop "newest only" on MP.  I never do.  I go thru different parts of the menu.  An older item means absolutely nothing to me if I like it.  

 

I don't shop "newest only" but I do recognize designs that have been around a while. Doesn't mean I won't still buy them if I like them, but it's nice to get some fresher stuff sometimes.

[Rowan Amore]

10 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Maitreya is not as popular as that graph showed

Yes, it is.  People with the newer bodies are just spending more to get their choices of clothing up to what they had with Maitreya.  I used Maitreya for years so have an abundance of clothing, shoes, jewelry, etc already.  When I switched to Reborn, if items I already had weren't updated, I have to purchase new clothes, shoes, jewelry, etc.

[EliseAnne85]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Yes, it is.  People with the newer bodies are just spending more to get their choices of clothing up to what they had with Maitreya.  I used Maitreya for years so have an abundance of clothing, shoes, jewelry, etc already.  When I switched to Reborn, if items I already had weren't updated, I have to purchase new clothes, shoes, jewelry, etc.

This is the first time I've seen such a price drop with new bodies coming out.  I've never seen prices for older items plummet like this in SL.  

But, this is off topic and we'd better get back on topic.

As far as the topic, LL will do what LL wants to do.  But, I doubt they will since they are making their own new mesh bodies, supposedly. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

17 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Possible, but I think it's better to agree to disagree on this one because there are always people where it's new to them.  It's not like those items are defunct and not all people shop "newest only" on MP.  I never do.  I go thru different parts of the menu.  An older item means absolutely nothing to me if I like it.  And, I like all kinds of styles.  That stuff for 10 and 19 lindens at Pure Poison on MP doesn't look dated to me.  Some of those items are classic which to me means never goes out of style.

 

Nothing in Second Life has a "marginal cost" - a cost to produce one more of a given item. Financially, there's no difference between selling 10 things at L$1000 or 1000 things at L$10 (except for things like customer support.) If you know that 100 people are going to buy your item basically regardless of price it makes sense to sell the item to them for as much as you can get away with.

After those people make their purchases, you can then go after people who wouldn't have bought it at the original price. You're better off trying to get a lot of people who'd buy at the lower price than a theoretical person who might pay more who isn't around yet.

[JackRaybold]

So, here's a newbie's worm's-eye view, for what it's worth.

As a serial newcomer here, I've been reading this thread with great interest. This is my fourth or fifth attempt to make sense of my SL avatar - each time I come back to SL because of an itch I can't scratch, and each time I've walked away in frustration. As a retired software engineer, I would like to suggest that the biggest issues for me as a newbie have been less about the stock body - as has been mentioned, there are plenty of excellent, easily-found free bodies around - but more about the lack of an interface standard for HUDs, and about the lack of interoperability between different clothes, even for the same body, often even from the same creator. I would suggest that one way SL could substantially reduce the pain for new users would be to enforce a standardised, integrated HUD layout for body and head creators. Jumping from the stock SL avi to completely alien concepts like BOM, mesh, rigging etc is tough enough, but having to learn the wildly variant idiosyncracies of different body/head HUD layouts (particularly heads) has been far and away the biggest barrier for me in transferring tentative, painfully-acquired knowledge between different products.

I haven't see this mentioned to any significant extent on SL so maybe it's just me (it wouldn't be the first time), but as a solutions provider myself I know for a fact that, all else being equal, opaque, inconsistent, and idiosyncratic interface schema are the biggest reason for haemorrhaging userbases, absolutely bar none. Imo the first and major role of any environment administrator, real or virtual, is setting standards. I feel that until that happens, simply throwing yet more variants into the mix will add to the chaos rather than mitigate it.

The second, related, point is that clothes touted as being for a given body must interoperate with other clothes supplied for that body, irrespective of manufacturer/creator. The creators of the bodies themselves must set the standard here, ideally through a certification scheme. As has been mentioned on this thread and elsewhere, boots clipping trousers clipping shirts and jackets is, or should be, an absolute no-no.

And finally - I would like to see a set of simple, entry-level tutorials that step through the basics of avatar construction, object interaction, and grid etiquette before anyone is allowed to leave Welcome Island. That would at least give all new users a grounding in the basic principles of the world they're about to join, which is good for them and good for SL. In an ideal world that would be incentivised with a graduating bonus, but I accept that that might be challenging to implement without the potential for abuse.

It is not a coincidence, I feel, that the greater majority of the people I've interacted with here on my brief forays have clearly been highly intelligent. This has been such a marked phenomenon (in distinct contrast to other online spaces I've encountered) I've even wondered whether the excruciating learning curve is a deliberate ploy to keep thickos like me out of the ivory tower. If that is the case, it's working.

I appreciate that this thread was specifically about the upcoming NUX body and I apologise for straying off-topic. But the problems that the new body is supposed to solve demand significantly more complex and nuanced solutions than just introducing yet another fragment into an already-fractured problem space, imo. However, I also appreciate that SL is far and away the most successful 3D world to date, so it's obviously doing many things right enough to keep it moving forward.

Just my tuppence-worth!

Happy New Year one and all

Edited January 3, 2023 by JackRaybold
typo

[Candide LeMay]

12 minutes ago, JackRaybold said:

 setting standards

Only Linden Lab has the power to set and enforce standards and their interest in doing so is inversely proportional to how much effort it takes.

[Pixieplumb Flanagan]

9 minutes ago, JackRaybold said:

I would suggest that one way SL could substantially reduce the pain for new users would be to enforce a standardised, integrated HUD layout for body and head creators. Jumping from the stock SL avi to completely alien concepts like BOM, mesh, rigging etc is tough enough, but having to learn the wildly variant idiosyncracies of different body/head HUD layouts (particularly heads) has been far and away the biggest barrier for me in transferring tentative, painfully-acquired knowledge between different products.

That would vastly exceed LL's desired remit.  They 'could', but in reality they won't.  They really don't police the grid much at all, and truly would not care about something like this.

9 minutes ago, JackRaybold said:

 

The second, related, point is that clothes touted as being for a given body must interoperate with other clothes supplied for that body, irrespective of manufacturer/creator. The creators of the bodies themselves must set the standard here, ideally through a certification scheme. As has been mentioned on this thread and elsewhere, boots clipping trousers clipping shirts and jackets is, or should be, an absolute no-no.

This would require all creators to come together, to make many many multiples of every item, say a pair of flared jeans would need a 'tucked in' version to work with boots that go over, and possibly an extra wide version for boots that go under.  Mesh just doesn't 'suck in' or stretch over other mesh - it's not dynamic like that.  Whilst it would be lovely if this were a thing, it's not.  Perhaps one day it will be.  Even then, it's a huge ask for every single item to work with everything else.  Also, how is a mesh sweater supposed to know whether it should tuck in or go over a pair of jeans?!

9 minutes ago, JackRaybold said:

And finally - I would like to see a set of simple, entry-level tutorials that step through the basics of avatar construction, object interaction, and grid etiquette before anyone is allowed to leave Welcome Island. That would at least give all new users a grounding in the basic principles of the world they're about to join, which is good for them and good for SL. In an ideal world that would be incentivised with a graduating bonus, but I accept that that might be challenging to implement without the potential for abuse.

I think there used to be, back in the early years, something of the sort.  How to open boxes and carry stuff, etc.  If LL could see a benefit from this, they would do it.  I guess some new sign ups decided it was too much of a drag, so they skipped.  SL is for most people a game, an escape.  They don't want to be hassled about stuff, and rude people could complete the course, bugger off and be rude anyway!

[JackRaybold]

1 minute ago, Candide LeMay said:

Only Linden Lab has the power to set and enforce standards and their interest in doing so is inversely proportional to how much effort it takes.

Not an uncommon attitude, sadly. It comes from an inability or unwillingness to recognise that revenue is directly proportional to effort.

[JackRaybold]

5 minutes ago, Pixieplumb Flanagan said:

Mesh just doesn't 'suck in' or stretch over other mesh - it's not dynamic like that. 

Mesh bodies have selectable alphas. Why not mesh clothes? It's really the clipping that's the problem.

[Ceka Cianci]

35 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Yes, it is.  People with the newer bodies are just spending more to get their choices of clothing up to what they had with Maitreya.  I used Maitreya for years so have an abundance of clothing, shoes, jewelry, etc already.  When I switched to Reborn, if items I already had weren't updated, I have to purchase new clothes, shoes, jewelry, etc.

Same here..My Maitreya cup flow'eth over, there isn't much else that I feel the need to get for it..

A lot don't realize Maitreya is also in other markets that a lot of the newer bodies aren't in as well..

 

[EliseAnne85]

7 minutes ago, JackRaybold said:

Mesh bodies have selectable alphas. Why not mesh clothes? It's really the clipping that's the problem.

I've sort of done that with some men's items I made.  I put in the purchase packet several lengths of pants so that some pants are shorter to wear with men's boots.  My doing this wasn't a complete crystal ball work of just guessing what boots customers might buy.  I tried several men's boots and then gave recommendations to buy those boots from those creators and wear the shorter pants version with those boots.  There would mostly be no way as a creator I would know what boots someone was going to buy and what length to make the pants unless I offered for purchase pants and boots together as the item or did the above by trying a few boots and giving recommendations for the shorter pants.  I make many things.  I didn't want to make boots too when the market has tons.

Edited January 3, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, JackRaybold said:

Mesh bodies have selectable alphas. Why not mesh clothes? It's really the clipping that's the problem.

@animatshas discussed this issue in the past.  Maybe he can pop in and address his solutions.

 

[Risque Tempest]

I doubt LL has any desire to purchase something that flopped. Yes, C&C was an optimized performance body with first of its kind features. But curvy is the trend now, and C&C is a slender body. Maybe if the body was based on the more curvy Hourglass (that some designers still support), it would have had some success. 

I don’t think most SL users care about optimization. If they did, bodies that I have been told are “breaking the grid” wouldn’t be so popular. Even with BOM, bodies are still being made with alpha cuts. 

[Pixieplumb Flanagan]

14 minutes ago, JackRaybold said:

Mesh bodies have selectable alphas. Why not mesh clothes? It's really the clipping that's the problem.

There would need to be separate textures for each colour of each item with graduated alpha'd areas.  Each variant would be a separate texture upload.  It's just not practical currently as mesh is.  There's a whole other issue of alpha channels on mesh items that causes issues as well.

With the alpha cuts on mesh bodies it's a much simpler process with an on/off for each cut.  Even so, at times you can have awkward situations when the cuts don't perfectly match the clothes worn.

[EliseAnne85]

16 minutes ago, Pixieplumb Flanagan said:

There would need to be separate textures for each colour of each item with graduated alpha'd areas.  Each variant would be a separate texture upload.  It's just not practical currently as mesh is.  There's a whole other issue of alpha channels on mesh items that causes issues as well.

With the alpha cuts on mesh bodies it's a much simpler process with an on/off for each cut.  Even so, at times you can have awkward situations when the cuts don't perfectly match the clothes worn.

If the actual mesh product, shirt, pants, etc had parts that go invisible, it could be done with one texture, couldn't it?  However, it still doesn't mean all items will match even if parts of shirts or pants disappear in stages.  

Edited January 3, 2023 by EliseAnne85