Avatar Complexity - how much is too much?

[5p4c3]

Hopefully this isn't a dumb question, but I have a complex android avatar that I adore. But I noticed today it has a very high complexity. Or what I assume is very high. Really I haven't been playing Second Life much until recently, so I'm just guessing it's considered lofty. My computer handles it fine -- no stuttering or lagging after I fully load in which only takes a few seconds. But I was struck with the thought; what if it's not the same for others on the sim I'm in? I don't want to tank other's performance because of my avatar. So this is what brings me here. I really want to know if perhaps I should switch avatars. Though I would hate to, I'm willing to do it as to not be a spoil sport.

My complexity with no HUD attachments is about 366,651 according to Firestorm which seems very high, but I've never used a fully mesh up-to-date human avatar so I have nothing to compare it to know for sure.

[Charalyne Blackwood]

I'm fully mesh and, depending on my wardrobe, run between 40k and 70k complexity. I dunno if that's average or not tho.

[Love Zhaoying]

Overcomplexity is a result of too much Flair.

[EmmaAsht0n]

I try to remain under 100K as it's the limit for some events which enforce a complexity limit. Like Charalyne, my average is between 40K and 70K but some of my latest outfits are under 30K with mesh body/head and clothes.

[Orwar]

   Usually 20-35K, occasionally up to 60K. How much is too much depends on the situation; if I'm doing a photoshoot at my own platform then there's no real need for any limit, if I'm hanging out with people I try to stay below 50K usually as that's the rendering limit I put on others in most settings. 

[BigMcIntoshSL]

11 minutes ago, EmmaAsht0n said:

I try to remain under 100K as it's the limit for some events which enforce a complexity limit. Like Charalyne, my average is between 40K and 70K but some of my latest outfits are under 30K with mesh body/head and clothes.

Under 100K is my rule of thumb as well. I often try to go for under 50K, but within the kink communities, with all of our... "Flair" ( @Love Zhaoying is not wrong about that), that can be very difficult.

@5p4c3 I usually keep my avatar complexity render limit (a feature in the Firestorm viewer) somewhere between 300K and 350K, thus your avatar at 360+ K, unfortunately, would not even render for me.

That said, your question is NOT dumb AT ALL. It is a question I wish more people would ask and consider when putting their avatars together. Most of the video lag we experience in SL comes from complex avatars and not necessarily the environment.

[Love Zhaoying]

@5p4c3, FYI - many viewers display a message like, "Your complexity is XXXXX. Other avatars may not see you."

I am surprised if Firestorm does not tell you that occasionally (or maybe it did a few times then stopped due to "nagging limits").

[5p4c3]

Thank you everyone for your responses. I think I'll try to find another avatar that I like enough since it seems over 300,000 is really pushing it for what is considered acceptable! Again, thank you!

[steeljane42]

Complexity number at its current state is rather irrelevant as it was played with for years. I don't really like to repeat myself, but here is a wonderful example.

That's older non bento head by a mesh head creator that used to be most popular back then (thankfully not anymore). Almost 4m triangles, 9.2k compexity. One of rare things that used to lag my viewer during inspection back in the days. And then you can have relatively light unrigged attachment (mesh too) that is times as "complex" at the fraction of triangles. ~3x less VRAM usage too.

 

LL were going to change how it's calculated, but not sure they will do it anytime soon, if ever.

Edited October 24, 2022 by steeljane42

[Rowan Amore]

3 hours ago, 5p4c3 said:

Hopefully this isn't a dumb question, but I have a complex android avatar that I adore. But I noticed today it has a very high complexity. Or what I assume is very high. Really I haven't been playing Second Life much until recently, so I'm just guessing it's considered lofty. My computer handles it fine -- no stuttering or lagging after I fully load in which only takes a few seconds. But I was struck with the thought; what if it's not the same for others on the sim I'm in? I don't want to tank other's performance because of my avatar. So this is what brings me here. I really want to know if perhaps I should switch avatars. Though I would hate to, I'm willing to do it as to not be a spoil sport.

My complexity with no HUD attachments is about 366,651 according to Firestorm which seems very high, but I've never used a fully mesh up-to-date human avatar so I have nothing to compare it to know for sure.

You wouldn't even be rendered for me.  I have my limit set at 300,000.  Thankfully, I rarely see avatars over that but it does happen now and then.  My avatar is usually between 25K and 60K

[KjartanEno]

ARC may or may not indicate a rendering issue for yourself or others. I like to point people to Beq Janus' blog since a lot of performance related issues are covered there: https://beqsother.blogspot.com/2022/03/how-to-use-new-firestorm-performance.html

[JeromFranzic]

For me, the limit depends on my graphic settings.

Mid: 200,000 

High: 300,000

Ultra (if anyone photo bombs lol): unlimited.

I always allow friends to rez regardless of complexity. For me, like some other posters I prefer to stay below 100k. I usually top out at 75k-80k, mostly below 50k on average.

[Katherine Heartsong]

300K+? Wow.

I'm averaging what others have said when all dolled up. Somewhere between 50K-100K full on formal, and only very rarely over 100.

Also, with Firestorm, remove all your HUDs and simply put them in your Favourite panel and open them only when needed.

For AOs, use FS's custom AO button .. there's no need ever for an AO HUD showing.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Katherine Heartsong

[Psyche Starling]

So, that's pretty high, and the risk is mostly that few people will see your awesome-looking getup because they've got their settings lower. I usually have it set to jellydoll anyone over 100K. Once I'm at an event, if my computer is running it OK and I'm curious, I might decide to render some of the jellydolls. But it all depends on how well my puter is behaving.

My own avi is usually under 50K in public, though I'll go higher if I'm just hanging out in my house with one or two people.

[BigMcIntoshSL]

3 hours ago, 5p4c3 said:

Thank you everyone for your responses. I think I'll try to find another avatar that I like enough since it seems over 300,000 is really pushing it for what is considered acceptable! Again, thank you!

Are you willing to post a picture of the avatar in question? I am curious to see what it looks like.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

23 minutes ago, BigMcIntoshSL said:

Are you willing to post a picture of the avatar in question? I am curious to see what it looks like.

Yes, this.  If you show us the avatar you are using now, people can help with ideas for similar items that are less heavy.  That way you can stay with the look you like.

[LydiavonK]

I guess it's only one attachement that causes this. See the numbers in your outfit. Hope that helps... 

Edited October 24, 2022 by LydiavonK

[Nalates Urriah]

12 hours ago, 5p4c3 said:

Thank you everyone for your responses. I think I'll try to find another avatar that I like enough since it seems over 300,000 is really pushing it for what is considered acceptable! Again, thank you!

300k is on the high side. However, there are people walking around with an ACI of +1M... and 800k is not that uncommon. At most Safe Hubs I will see avatars over my 250k limit.

The viewers use an ACI max of 350k before clicking over to UNLIMITED. This says something about what the Linden engineers thought was an acceptable range.

My avatar is typically between 60k and 150k. If I am going to an event I can get it down to <2k and 0mb of scripts. Other than events, I don't work too much about my ACI.

If you use Firestorm it will tell when your avatar is not rendered by other people in the region. That can give you an idea of how well the people in the area you hang out in are handling avatar rendering.

Also, ACI is  not as much of a performance killer as scripts are. If you have a high ACI and low script count you may be less of a problem than a 80k ACI avatar with 6MB of script weight that is burning up 90% of the regions script time.

Now that SL is cloud based... I haven't heard how they are handling memory or how well they do or don't scale up. I can see in the viewer stats how well a server is handling the scripts present. That gives me an idea of how my script load is impacting the region. Ideally we are under 3MB and use as little script time as possible.

Press Ctrl-Shift-1 to get the stats. Look for Time Dilation and Sim FPS, look for 1.0 and 44 FPS for best numbers. The lower those numbers go the harder the sim is working. Then look down at Scripts Run %. 100 is great. Less is worse. Around <=50% things get way laggy. Look farther down for Spare Time. 22ms means the region is not running any scripts. When it hits 0ms leave. You'll see % Run dropping as Spare time decreases. The server tries to keep everything working. You can right click your avatar in FS and select Script Info to see how much script time your avatar is using or needs.

And those will render problems... they can set their ACI limit so you do not affect them. So while it is nice of you to consider others, there is no reason not to enjoy SL. The system should cope well enough that it is only ever a serious issue at events and large gatherings. Day to day in most the places you'll be your ACI likely does not matter. The whole thing was to get people thinking about their render weight and pressure designers to do better. Generally it can be considered to have worked.

[Psyche Starling]

5 hours ago, LydiavonK said:

I guess it's only one attachement that causes this. See the numbers in your outfit. Hope that helps... 

This is a very good point. Try taking off each bit of your outfit at a time, see what happens. I bought an outfit last year. Put the whole thing on at once. 500K, yikes! So I started removing bits, and it turns out that almost all of that came from two ornamental flowers on the belt that almost weren't even visible. Wearing the outfit without the flowers gave a totally reasonable complexity number.

[5p4c3]

Okay, for those asking for a picture; I won't be in world for some time, but here is the marketplace link. Apparently other reviews complain of overcomplexity as well, which is really a shame because I do really like the avatar. https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/MAIA-Complete-Robotic-Avatar/19127314

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

19 hours ago, 5p4c3 said:

Hopefully this isn't a dumb question, but I have a complex android avatar that I adore. But I noticed today it has a very high complexity. Or what I assume is very high. Really I haven't been playing Second Life much until recently, so I'm just guessing it's considered lofty. My computer handles it fine -- no stuttering or lagging after I fully load in which only takes a few seconds. But I was struck with the thought; what if it's not the same for others on the sim I'm in? I don't want to tank other's performance because of my avatar. So this is what brings me here. I really want to know if perhaps I should switch avatars. Though I would hate to, I'm willing to do it as to not be a spoil sport.

My complexity with no HUD attachments is about 366,651 according to Firestorm which seems very high, but I've never used a fully mesh up-to-date human avatar so I have nothing to compare it to know for sure.

 That is very high, but if its not nothing you who cares.  I cap out at 300k and my viewer will not render avatars with higher... but you are not here for me,  so... 

 and yeah those AI robots are highly complex.. I have an arm that shoots my cost up  ALOT....  NEways, who cares if you can see it and you have no issues...  I'm not like a techno geek that knows all about such things... 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by LittleSparrow Skydancer

[Maitimo]

I like to stay under 50k for everyday use, maybe up to 150k at a push for special costumes/outfits. 

I do not render anyone over 220k.

[Cinos Field]

Complexity doesn't seem to matter nearly as much as triangle count, but I do like imagining that it does at least something. If dressed I'm around 80k, and if naked 90k. Of that, about 13k is a very simple necklace I always wear, which is a big part of why I think complexity doesn't actually mean much.

But even with that - and all the other bits and pieces you need for optimal furriness, and WAY over-detailed but beautiful eyes - I never really exceed 100k or so. I'm actually not sure how it'd even be possible.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Cinos Field

[Spiffy Voxel]

7 hours ago, 5p4c3 said:

Okay, for those asking for a picture; I won't be in world for some time, but here is the marketplace link. Apparently other reviews complain of overcomplexity as well, which is really a shame because I do really like the avatar. https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/MAIA-Complete-Robotic-Avatar/19127314

I've seen that avatar on Marketplace before, and it does look really nice! Hopefully the designer can come up with a lower-complexity version so more people can make use of it and still be seen.

These days my base avatar is a shade over 20K and most of my outfits put that up to between 21K and 50K depending on how much mesh is added. I've ended up throwing out a lot of items that, while pretty, were far too high complexity — the majority of those were older mesh designs and pre-mesh items.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

On Firestorm: World > Improve Graphics Speed

This is a new tool which gives a much (much) more accurate indicator of whose avatar is actually too complex, and which of your attachments are taking the longest to render. You can also derender the avatars that are actually causing lag in your viewer by using it.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Wulfie Reanimator