Zalificent Corvinus Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said: Most of the changes I've described adding are not crazy changes for a software development team to make. I know, I've worked in the industry long enough. They have their own staging environment they can test the changes in, and previous software versions to roll back to. And there's your first mistake. You assume that how a "real software development company" does things is how it's done in SL. Empirical evidence suggests otherwise, EEP was a classic example. They tested sod all, rolled it out as a public beta, refused to listen to the public beta testers saying how broken it was, rolled it out as a finished project, stated they would not fix it because it wasn't broken, then quietly reversed that because there were too many complaints. 6 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: The last thing you want is engineers who haven't touched the code base in 5 years. They need continuous experience to be able to maintain SecondLife. The more they work on it, the less mistakes are made over time. Have you paid attention to SL's "mistake" quota? Apparently not. 7 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: With that said, why don't you see if you can present a solution that doesn't involve changing the marketplace, and doesn't involve things that you readily admit would never change? I did, I suggested LEAVING it alone. The inventory system is not "broken" and does not "need fixing". The existence of in-world stores is not something that is "broken" and doesn't "need fixing" by driving everything into an idiot friendly "shopping popup" that will close down half the grid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: Tell me you don't know that changing a record format by adding a new field, can require reformating all the data, by copying it into a new file, without telling me you know sod all about it. Just FYI, this isn't how a typical SQL database works. We don't edit files, we run queries. We don't copy files, we take dumps (lol) SecondLife uses plenty of bitfields and can likely get away with adding a flag to an existing bitfield without adding any new columns to its database. Bitfields are always the same storage size, regardles of how many flags are stored within them. Many object properties have been added to SecondLife recently, such as all of the GLTF properties, object thumbnails, etc. We even added an entire 128kb of storage for objects, which if anything should have been the one change that caused storage armageddon but didn't. New object properties are also on SecondLife's official roadmap such as unsit target. Point is developers are constantly adding new properties to objects. It's not exactly something new to LL that is going to cause all the doom and gloom you are predicting. Edited February 1 by Extrude Ragu elaborate on bitfields 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 27 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: 39 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: Adding a new "object property" means reformatting the ENTIRE multi petabyte asset database. Not exactly an inconsequential change. Get it wrong, and NOBODY's inventory works. 800,000 users screaming in rage because a handful of people want ill-thought out change. Tell me you don't know how bitfields work without telling me you don't know how bitfields work Right! Even back in COBOL days, structures would be left with "extra unused bytes" at the end so that you only needed to "use those bytes" instead of adding to the copybook (adding to the copybook could potentially impact more programs down the road)...so those "unused extra bytes" would be used when you needed to add a field. You didn't even have to expand the database to use them. And this was using "DB2", upon which SQL was eventually based.. Plus.. A proper "4th-normal form" database would be normalized in such a way that each "kind" of data is in its own table. So, even if you had to add a column to a table (not just a bit to a field), you only affect that ONE table. Linden Lab has gotten REALLY good about adding new features in ways that don't "immediately break" the database, TPV's, etc. For instance: ANY new feature you see, if it uses the "RC Channel" - must use the "same" database "under the hood". Otherwise when you cross from "RC Channel" Regions to "Main Release Regions" your functionality would be borked. The only time I've seen this is when Linkset Data was introduced, they said "don't make certain changes" if you plan to go between Region types since the data could be lost (as it was a Prim Property). Like, it's kinda basic. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 6 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: The existence of in-world stores is not something that is "broken" and doesn't "need fixing" by driving everything into an idiot friendly "shopping popup" that will close down half the grid. HUD based shopping has been tried multiple times over the years. (Which is about as close to a shopping pop up as you can currently get). They never last. I think the majority of users prefer to shop inworld or at events. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 9 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: I did, I suggested LEAVING it alone. The inventory system is not "broken" and does not "need fixing". The existence of in-world stores is not something that is "broken" and doesn't "need fixing" by driving everything into an idiot friendly "shopping popup" that will close down half the grid. The inventory is a godforsaken mess requiring oodles of time for 10's of thousands of residents to organize and sort and depressing sales because some of us just don't want to add to the mess. Combined with the inefficient shopping experience, buying new clothes is not nearly as good as it could be and loses the SL economy quite a bit of real money. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 11 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: I did, I suggested LEAVING it alone. The inventory system is not "broken" and does not "need fixing". The existence of in-world stores is not something that is "broken" and doesn't "need fixing" by driving everything into an idiot friendly "shopping popup" that will close down half the grid. So your fear is not actually that the feature would be broken, it's that it'd be too convenient? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 4 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: So your fear is not actually that the feature would be broken, it's that it'd be too convenient? ANY change will "bring down half the grid"!!1!!1!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said: So your fear is not actually that the feature would be broken, it's that it'd be too convenient? No. My fear is that LL will do what they always do, and make a fustercluck coded hot mess of it, and fubar the grid, and drive a lot of SL in-world businesses under, and all because SOME people prefer IMVSpew. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Psaltery Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Is this the Peeve room? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 1 minute ago, Garnet Psaltery said: Is this the Peeve room? Yes, there is some major peeving going on. Why do you ask? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 6 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: No. My fear is that LL will do what they always do, and make a fustercluck coded hot mess of it, and fubar the grid, and drive a lot of SL in-world businesses under, and all because SOME people prefer IMVSpew. You're contrasting all those empty businesses whose potential customers are only retained for a few minutes till after they open up the inventory forcing their eyes to roll back in their heads and click X. What good are a bunch of broke businesses for a platform that can't retain a new user beyond their first experiences with their inventory and shopping? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Just now, Love Zhaoying said: ANY change will "bring down half the grid"!!1!!1!! If all shopping was via a "shopping popup, in the viewer, as a replacement for in-world shopping and the mp, what happens to the in-world shops? What happens to the people who rent parcels to those shops, what happens to the parcels supported or financed bythose shops,. If rentals companies see their margins pushed from profit to loss, what happens to all their remaining customers who get evicted in the shut down. ALL changes have knock on effects. It pays to consider what those might be before screaming "But any change is always better". "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" Take the suggestion that "LLDWP should set auto-return to 1 hour on all their land, and vehicles can ignore auto return if their owner is standing nearby, and vehicles should use NO LI, ever." I can see that MIGHT be of benefit to the 3 people who supported it, but not a benefit at all to the other 799,997 SL users. I can see why the LLDWP set all their roads "no-object entry" and "auto return 5 mins" years ago. How about the suggestion that SL shouldn't have non-premium people, and that the "free loaders" who buy most of the L$ on the lindex and do most of the shopping, and rent most of the parcels on the 2/3rds of the grid that is private estates, should be expelled? That's an idea with knock on effects, that would shut down 2/3rds of the grid. How about the suggestion that EVERYONE should be forced to log in, every time, at a single "G rated mega info hub of ultimate lag", because "it would encourage people to be more social". Change is NOT always beneficial, some ideas are not just "bad" but "bloody stupid". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 40 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: My latest peeve is that when two people go in for a cage match, one comes out. And also that they have to actively go into the cage instead of the cage scooping them up automatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: You're contrasting all those empty businesses whose potential customers are only retained for a few minutes till after they open up the inventory forcing their eyes to roll back in their heads and click X. What good are a bunch of broke businesses for a platform that can't retain a new user beyond their first experiences with their inventory and shopping? Strange, I see plenty of stores doing good business, and plenty of shopping events with people at them. I see newish avatars who managed to mesh up and buy clothes, and have fun, every time I log in to SL. Maybe you should ask your self what YOU are doing wrong, that you don't see this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Just now, Zalificent Corvinus said: Change is NOT always beneficial, some ideas are not just "bad" but "bloody stupid". The problem is, you don't actually provide any constructive criticism to those ideas. You just call all ideas stupid. And then say we shouldn't change anything. If we listened to you, SL would just stop in its tracks and go into managed decline. Your solution is to create a problem. Nobody here can take you seriously, because you can't/won't present a serious solution. Everything you present as alternatives are not viable. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: potential customers are only retained for a few minutes Also, "potential customers" who quit SL within a few minutes do not do so because of "shoppin r hard!", because they haven't even left Noob Island, and are in fact bewildered by the idiot-friendly "Sux-Ra design a suburban jogger mom of fugly" hud. Realistically, noobs who fail to make it off noob island, almost certainly weren't worth having anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 5 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: And also that they have to actively go into the cage instead of the cage scooping them up automatically. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: Nobody here can take you seriously, because you can't/won't present a serious solution. Everything you present as alternatives are not viable. LLDWP decided that griefing was a serious enough problem to change the settings on their parcels years ago. YOU decided they were obviously wrong based on, YOUR wish to "drive n park" at stores, and suggested a "positive solution" to this NON problem, that would benefit about 50 people tops, and adversely affect EVERYONE ELSE. 16 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: you don't actually provide any constructive criticism to those ideas There isn't always a "constructive" modification to an idea, some ideas are so awful they are beyond saving the moment they are uttered. That's just the harsh reality. Bad ideas based on an almost total lack of understanding and a complete disregard for the knock on effects, are typical of the "quite rightly doomed from the get go" category. 16 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: you can't/won't present a serious solution Not my job to provide solutions to non-problems. If others suggested solutions to non-problems promise to create more actual problems than the non-problems they claim to fix, I will push back against them. Some idiot claims that banning 95% of the userbase for having cheap PC's will save SL, I'll point out that the loss of revenue will bury SL., for example. If you don't like me pointing out your suggestions are "dangerous", feel free to use the block feature, then you wont have to deal with the harsh reality of people not liking bad ideas. Edited February 1 by Zalificent Corvinus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 12 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: Strange, I see plenty of stores doing good business, and plenty of shopping events with people at them. I see newish avatars who managed to mesh up and buy clothes, and have fun, every time I log in to SL. Maybe you should ask your self what YOU are doing wrong, that you don't see this. Yeah they make the sales to decade + oldbies who like the sadomasochist requirements for a shopping and inventory organization experience. Explains why there is so much BDSM here maybe eh? I see a lot of empty stores nowadays and even the Saturday sales events are not nearly as busy as they used to be. In the forum I see creators not doing so well. Maybe it is the economy, maybe it is that the whole shopping experience is getting old and tiresome with its increasing complexities. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said: My latest peeve is that when two people go in for a cage match, one comes out. Did they EAT the other one?! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 4 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said: I'd quite like it if you went over there with that attitude >.> But the SLsex is not in IMVU. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmeliaJ08 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said: And it's been like that since I started and I'm still here. Could it be simpler? Oh, most definitely. However, when I've helped a few newer people recently, those that actually pay attention and ask pertinent questions, most have picked it up fairly quickly. I've said before when I came to SL I had absolutely NO gaming experience. Maybe that was a good thing. I had no expectations at all. I didn't think it was going to be easy or hard. I had no frame of reference. I worked my way through problems and felt awesome when I figured something out. I think the issue IS that people come here from other games and expect it to be like other games. It's not...at all. Forget everything you've come to expect from a game. Oh for sure. It takes a certain type of person to commit to SL and learn how this stuff works, it's probably something we all share if we've been here more than a couple of years. It's limiting though, the immediate confusion that is every SL viewer and the way it all works probably drives away more users than it retains. I can't say that with certainty but I know my initial experience - and I'm a huge geek - was a failure, I was busier then though. My second attempt resulted in me still being here today though and I learned entirely through trial and error. Funnily enough I had a taste of this once again recently, don't ask how this happened (I don't even remember or can explain it) but I had never used the official viewer except for a brief experiment back in 2007. I came into SL in 2017 or 2016, I can't remember, using Firestorm. I recently had to use the official viewer to test something and I felt like I was pretty much a noob again, that thing is repellent and the user interface that new people are being presented with - in my opinion - laughably poor. It makes Firestorm look positively polished! I couldn't even immediately work out how to search for groups! I realise given 30 minutes I could probably find where everything is but... I felt utterly lost just trying to work out why things were even laid out as they are. You're very right, it is no way a gaming experience. Edited February 1 by AmeliaJ08 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinnamon Mistwood Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Peeve: people who go on and on and on and on for pages and pages and pages and pages about someone else's peeve. Just post your own peeve instead of using someone's to ridicule them forever. Or maybe some minimum IQ is needed to come up with your very own peeve instead of telling others they are too stoopid to be in SL because you dont like their peeve. 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istelathis Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Peeve: Someone called dibs on the Crunch and Munch. All I have to snack on now is Cheez-its, bleh... 😢 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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