About using experiences inworld.

[Prokofy Neva]

33 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

Well, @Da5id Weatherwax, you did ask the Forum for advice.  So in a lot of ways you are reaping what you sow, "Hey kids! I'm really excited about this thing I'm doing! What do you think?" And the kids steal your sammich and your lunch money, hide your jacket and give you a wedgie.  

As you stated in your OP, folks are wary of Experiences. So, some of the comments are useful in that you are getting that verified. Some... well let's just say :::applause::: at your 'not" response. Yeesh. At least one of these commenters is vocally, obsessively anti-adult stuff, or anything relating to BDSM, and so that also colors their responses. You aren't going to get those people to your sim no matter what you do. Write them off.

It is your private sim, do what the eff you want! However, that said, I'm assuming you do want traffic from the people who would enjoy such things. And you want input from the average user, your audience.

Upon reading the reasonable comments, I do agree that probably it is best to have a short disclaimer, somehow: This is an adult sim and RLV is used. So people know they can/should disable their RLV if they want (or for others, check to make sure it is ON). You also don't want the notecard or whatever to be a novel, so maybe by stating "adult/RLV" you can dispense with the warning about the 1%, or shorten it to just adult/RLV. Something. Basically, the way I see it, you are in effect doing CNC at that point. (I don't know what your RLV will do, so I'm using CNC very loosely.)

I can't speak to the scripting, but that's not why you posted to the GDF, although it looks like you are getting some interesting comments along with the wedgies.

I will be looking forward to seeing your build.

If only if BDSM practices and culture really did require actual consent and didn't bleed into the forums, offerings at events, communities, group chat, and really much of the society.

Not surprised it's behind this project and has the cheerleaders it does, so I will leave you all to  promote visitor discomfort on your own sim.

[Seicher Rae]

@Prokofy NevaWhy don't you go make a SV-worthy tweet about it?

ETA: Gosh what WILL this thread do without your pages and pages of pseudo-intellectual screed? (or any other thread for that matter?)

For the record, Da5id did not use the term BDSM. I did. He said it was on an adult sim and there was RLV. I have no idea what his sim build is about. I'm a cheerleader for people who still have open minds, let adults be adults, and use "Your world, your imagination" the way they see fit. Concept. And in under 10,000 words.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Seicher Rae

[Qie Niangao]

1 minute ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I have never seen anyone put bans into Experience. But I take your point. It may not be as easy to do as a land ban list.

Oh, I don't think you can put bans into an Experience itself; rather, a teleportation script can implement bans whether it does the teleporting with an Experience-enable function or by any of the earlier methods; either way, it's just up to the script. (A land ban at the destination would apply equally, too.)

5 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

You don't always know where it is taking you.

Yeah, I see a real "design tension" there. Some builders want to give visitors an element of surprise—perhaps using Experience-based dynamic per-avatar EEP to make the clouds gradually darken and the water look like a storm is coming in. That's great for those visitors seeking an immersive "experience" but maybe not so great for a photographer who just wants that special, staged shot they had in mind.

(Okay, that wasn't the ideal example I intended, because the photographer would be using their own static personal environment settings anyway and would never even notice the fancy dynamic sky, even if they'd granted Experience permissions.)

[Quartz Mole]

15 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Either give them a notecard then or set up a info kiosk nearby that when clicked, offers a notecard that explains your service and the usage of the experience tied to it.

The info kiosk might also offer to open the knowledge base article on Experiences in Second Life, which helps to explain and demystify experiences, together with an explanation of what to do if you encounter an abusive experience.

You could also play this video in the arrivals area (assuming your visitors aren't scared of shared media, too).

 

[Lindal Kidd]

Like @Seicher Rae, I too am looking forward to, um, experiencing @Da5id Weatherwax's build. And now that I know about it, I might just join the 1% and see if I can get an RLV relay pasted on my butt.

Given my long-time friend @Gabriele Graves's vampiric proclivities, I'm surprised at the completeness of her rejection of Experiences and RLV. I know (and applaud!) Gabby's love for traditional roleplay, un-enhanced by props and such, but still.

I used to be very wary of RLV myself. These days, I usually go around with it enabled, just to see what trouble I can get myself into. It's fun to be surprised by things once in a while...especially since I know that I CAN get out of any situation, if I really want to.

Same with Experiences. I used to shake my head and leave when a place told me I needed to accept an Experience. These days, I'll almost always accept it, just to See What Happens Next.

Bring it on, I say. Bring it on.

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Like @Seicher Rae, I too am looking forward to, um, experiencing @Da5id Weatherwax's build. And now that I know about it, I might just join the 1% and see if I can get an RLV relay pasted on my butt.

Given my long-time friend @Gabriele Graves's vampiric proclivities, I'm surprised at the completeness of her rejection of Experiences and RLV. I know (and applaud!) Gabby's love for traditional roleplay, un-enhanced by props and such, but still.

I used to be very wary of RLV myself. These days, I usually go around with it enabled, just to see what trouble I can get myself into. It's fun to be surprised by things once in a while...especially since I know that I CAN get out of any situation, if I really want to.

Same with Experiences. I used to shake my head and leave when a place told me I needed to accept an Experience. These days, I'll almost always accept it, just to See What Happens Next.

Bring it on, I say. Bring it on.

This has been my reaction recently to any Experience I've run into.  What the heck!?  There's not much in SL that surprises me anymore so taking that chance to see what it does, is exciting.  

I say Field Trip when @Da5id Weatherwaxhas everything set up.

[Coffee Pancake]

The warning for experiences needs to be seriously toned down and perhaps integrated with the experiences floater.

Put the list of accepted experiences front and center and have the user see them added as they add them, make it really easy to revoke one rather than hobbling a a lot of really useful functionality with a terrifying warning.

Nothing in SL should generate a "DANGER WILL ROBINSON" warning message, if it does, that UI needs to be overworked.

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

16 hours ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

I'm currently in the process of completing a major build.

I look forward to exploring your project.

[Seicher Rae]

27 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I used to be very wary of RLV myself. These days, I usually go around with it enabled, just to see what trouble I can get myself into. It's fun to be surprised by things once in a while...especially since I know that I CAN get out of any situation, if I really want to.

Same with Experiences. I used to shake my head and leave when a place told me I needed to accept an Experience. These days, I'll almost always accept it, just to See What Happens Next.

Bring it on, I say. Bring it on.

Exactly! 

If folks don't have fun this way, fine, cool, don't. Live your lives how you are happy, and the heck with what others are doing. Same in reverse, folks, same in reverse.

Lindal, maybe we should go together and that could be interesting!

Or, what will be on my RL tombstone: It seemed like a good idea at the time.

I used to run around SL in a tiny plaid bunny avi (so cute, I should dig that out) and my sole purpose was to have adventures of all kinds. It was purely in the spirit of "what could go wrong???" and amused me. If you're not enjoying SL, you're doing it wrong.  (Not that there's a right/wrong to it... disclaimer boiler plate.)

 

[Da5id Weatherwax]

I want to thank everyone who made constructive comments. Even Prok for the data on carving out sub-parcels to host experience arrival points.

For what it's worth here's how I've decided to do it.

The experience TPs will remain in place, but they will be silent. They will check whether a user is in the experience or not and then either teleport them or shrug and go back to sleep, depending on that result. At the "closed end" of the teleporting hallways and stairwells will be an invisible sit-tp object hovering over the dummy door which will move the user to the equivalent point in the other copy of the space and trigger the "real door" in THAT space to open as if it had been clicked.

This means that IF the user has opted in to the experience already, the experience TPs will let them have the more seamless experience (that sound's awkward but you know what I mean) of just walking through the TP-zone. (wandering too close to it accidentally won;t be a thing because they will all be in enclosed hallways or stairwells )

 

If the user has NOT opted into the experience they will reach the dummy door and its sit-tp object - unteleported amd unbothered by the experience - and can click to "open" the door and be TP'd by an old-fashioned warppos method to where they'd have ended up anyway if they had used the experience-tp and just kept walking.

 

The option to opt in to the experience will be at the front door and will be configured to not bug the same user or request they opt in more than once per day (or unless the script gets upgraded and reset - I'm not doing the "external database of people I've talked to" thing. As far as I'm concerned data generated in SL should stay in SL)

 

That seems like a reasonable way to offer anyone visiting my spot whatever option they are more comfortable with.

 

 

ETA: Some doors just won't open for you unless you're in the experience. They'll just be "locked." Cam-tp past them at your own risk, because there will be traps that don't  depend on the experience on the other side that are only active if you're not in it. It will never be possible for a person to wander into areas where opting in or out of the experience might have negative consequences innocently - they will have to deliberately use SL-fu to bypass a locked door or other barrier.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Da5id Weatherwax
additional data

[Quistess Alpha]

On 8/20/2022 at 11:55 AM, Coffee Pancake said:

Nothing in SL should generate a "DANGER WILL ROBINSON" warning message

Never say never. The permission request for scripted L$ transfers is suitably scary. I personally would never accept it unless I wrote the script myself, or if the script is open-source.

13 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

I'm not doing the "external database of people I've talked to"

Experience keys are great for that if you can slog through them. programming around asynchronous responses to simple questions is often a bit more tiring than it's worth though.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

On 8/20/2022 at 3:59 PM, Seicher Rae said:

@Prokofy NevaWhy don't you go make a SV-worthy tweet about it?

ETA: Gosh what WILL this thread do without your pages and pages of pseudo-intellectual screed? (or any other thread for that matter?)

For the record, Da5id did not use the term BDSM. I did. He said it was on an adult sim and there was RLV. I have no idea what his sim build is about. I'm a cheerleader for people who still have open minds, let adults be adults, and use "Your world, your imagination" the way they see fit. Concept. And in under 10,000 words.

In fairness, Seicher, I've never made a secret of the fact that I am a kinster (where such things can happen) in SL as much as in RL so perhaps Prok was picking up on that in the same way they referred back to an earlier disagreement we had in their initial comment. It was certainly implied in some of what I said. (I still don't like Prok, or their attitude, but credit where credit is due and I won't ascribe to malice what can be adequately explained by "meh, it's Prok again") Folks outside the community often have no idea how it really works.

 

and it's not a full sim build, it's just a Scottish style large manor house being created out in the boonies of Zindra with some interesting features being made part of it "just to see if I can and can make them work" The intention is that it is primarily my home/workshop and a social space to entertain guests, but that visitors would be welcome to wander through most of it if they wanted to, whether I was on-site or not. There won;t be any banlines (because I hate them) unless somebody peeves me so anyone will be free to wander in and look around. Not that I expect many to do so, folks on zindra are mostly either "commercially engaged" or more interested in the fleshpots than what's out in the boonies - but I have to design the place as if it WILL get visitors of different types, particularly if I start using the ballroom to host music sets occasionally and so I need to think in terms of "public"  - ie Joe or Jane Rando might show up at any time.

[Seicher Rae]

3 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

In fairness, Seicher, I've never made a secret of the fact that I am a kinster (where such things can happen) in SL as much as in RL so perhaps Prok was picking up on that in the same way they referred back to an earlier disagreement we had in their initial comment. It was certainly implied in some of what I said. (I still don't like Prok, or their attitude, but credit where credit is due and I won't ascribe to malice what can be adequately explained by "meh, it's Prok again") Folks outside the community often have no idea how it really works.

 

and it's not a full sim build, it's just a Scottish style large manor house being created out in the boonies of Zindra with some interesting features being made part of it "just to see if I can and can make them work" The intention is that it is primarily my home/workshop and a social space to entertain guests, but that visitors would be welcome to wander through most of it if they wanted to, whether I was on-site or not. There won;t be any banlines (because I hate them) unless somebody peeves me so anyone will be free to wander in and look around. Not that I expect many to do so, folks on zindra are mostly either "commercially engaged" or more interested in the fleshpots than what's out in the boonies - but I have to design the place as if it WILL get visitors of different types, particularly if I start using the ballroom to host music sets occasionally and so I need to think in terms of "public"  - ie Joe or Jane Rando might show up at any time.

Well, then I shant protect your honor any further, good sir! Actually you proved yourself admirably with the "not" comment early on. (There was quite a group cheering you on, pretty sure.) My direct remark (to PN) was that after  my 13+ years in  SL "adult" that Prok made the breaking news in her Twitter a few days ago, that Seicher does Teh BDSM in SL, complete with an active forum link. A very no sheet sherlock post, to which I replied that they might as well have outed me for using Firestorm... me and a billion other SL people. I think I was supposed to feel my shame? (which is a kink for some but we shall not digress) Imagine my chagrin if they had also posted "in RL, too!" zomg!  (no sarcasm fonts were harmed in the typing of this) Someone else commented that Prok's tweet was really more of a SV-type post (another thread). It was just that classy and intelligent.

Anyway, it sounds like you are getting a good plan for your build. From this thread, you've already got a field trip group of Lindal, Rowan and me, which could be quite a hoot. 
 

[Da5id Weatherwax]

I said "traps" mostly pits, to be honest.

Quote

Hamish_The_Butler: Ah weel, looks like ye've fallen intae the void ya wee silly. There's no way oot o' this spot, ye ken, so if ya wouldnae mind teleporting yersel' oot o' it the noo I'd be glad o' it. Means I willnae be needing to come back in a wee while and sweep up yer bones...

 

[Da5id Weatherwax]

6 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

From this thread, you've already got a field trip group of Lindal, Rowan and me, which could be quite a hoot.

JC on a unicycle... I'd better up my game then

[Da5id Weatherwax]

On 8/20/2022 at 4:48 PM, Lindal Kidd said:

Given my long-time friend @Gabriele Graves's vampiric proclivities, I'm surprised at the completeness of her rejection of Experiences and RLV. I know (and applaud!) Gabby's love for traditional roleplay, un-enhanced by props and such, but still.

I can't disagree with @Gabriele Graves either, when it comes to roleplay. It's been "a thing" for me since I started scripting objects for SL that clicking through menus and stuff was an immersion-breaker and for objects that would be used in roleplay minimising that as much as possible has always been a goal. A large part of this project is attempting to put some of those principles into action in one spot or another while constructing my new SL lair. If I can give an object a functional control panel where you can push buttons, pull levers and watch the lights change color and the the object respond I'll always prefer that to presenting a tree of menus. If a machine has swappable parts I'd much rather have the user open the drawer and select the piece they want fitted from its contents than have them click, get menu, choose "swap" and select their choice. Similarly if your intrepid explorer ends up tied to a pole in an arena about to be a snack for a pack of slavering monsters there will be a means of escape coded into it somewhere but it won't be "/me finally gets the knife to drop out of his sleeve into his hand and starts awkwardly scraping away at the ropes binding his wrists" and until you do find the way out (or get eaten) the pole is going to use RLV (if you have it enabled)  or whatever is available in an experience's bag of tricks (assuming you opted in) to keep you there.

Similar principles, but they've just led us to different places in how we apply them in SL.

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 8/20/2022 at 11:55 AM, Coffee Pancake said:

Nothing in SL should generate a "DANGER WILL ROBINSON" warning message, if it does, that UI needs to be overworked.

How do you then work around the fact that Will Robinson may well be an ijit, and a gullible one to boot?

[Da5id Weatherwax]

6 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

How do you then work around the fact that Will Robinson may well be an ijit, and a gullible one to boot?

First-level dungeon-crawlers tend to meet first-level fates if they get too big for their britches

For anything that can do "RL or near-RL" stuff - like take your lindens, steal your hard-created uploads or expose personal data - for that I support big flashing lights, scary fonts and perhaps a line of angelic musicians playing Yakkity Sax. The rest is debateable.

[Qie Niangao]

17 hours ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

be TP'd by an old-fashioned warppos method

Not literally warppos, though, I trust. No doubt there are still some true warppos teleporters in the wild despite llSetRegionPos having passed its tenth anniversary this year… which means those of us who even know the literal definition of warppos must be an endangered species now.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

2 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Not literally warppos, though, I trust. No doubt there are still some true warppos teleporters in the wild despite llSetRegionPos having passed its tenth anniversary this year… which means those of us who even know the literal definition of warppos must be an endangered species now.

I have some objects I made more than 10 years ago that I still occasionally use that still use it.. because they still work just fine and are only for me so i haven't been bothered to update their scripts. But no, I haven't actually used "real warppos" in a script for about that long

[Da5id Weatherwax]

On 8/22/2022 at 12:45 AM, Quistess Alpha said:

Experience keys are great for that if you can slog through them. programming around asynchronous responses to simple questions is often a bit more tiring than it's worth though.

While I profoundly hate the awkwardness of asynchronous callbacks in LSL this is probably a good idea

Logic something like this (utilising "Hamish_The_Butler" as what primarily "talks to the visitor on the houses behalf")....

on (visitor enters front door)
{
	if (visitor already in experience) {do nothing}
	else {send request to get their key data from the experience}
}

in dataserver event
{
	if (visitors key not in experience data)
	{
		//We've not seen them before ever. 
        	Have Hamish tell them about it and ask them if its ok to send them an experience request. options are "Yes", "Not Now", "Never" and "tell me more"
	}
	else
	{
		//the experience data will contain when we last asked them to join and what their response to Hamish was.
		if (their response to Hamish was "Never") {we're done. Don't bug them again.}
        	else
        	{
        		If (the last time they responded to Hamish was more than $dontBugMeTime ago)
            		{
            			//They must have responded "Yes" or "Not Now" or just ignored the dialog last time. It's been long enough and they are still not in it so...
                		Have Hamish tell them about it and ask them if its ok to send them an experience request. options are "Yes", "Not Now", "Never" and "tell me more"
            		}
		}
	}
}

Responses to Hamish
case (response) in
{
	Never: Add this status to the experience data so we never ask this visitor again.
    Yes: request experience perms to add the visitor to the experience. Log this in the experience data.
    Not Now or dialogs listener times out: Log this and the current timestamp in the experience data so we don't bug them again too soon.
    Tell Me More: hand them a notecard with details of what the experiences do here and respawn dialog.
}

 

[Love Zhaoying]

I'm finding that if I use async callbacks in LSL, it actually solves most problems that I have with LSL! I'll post about it one day soon in the LSL Forum.

[Quistess Alpha]

8 hours ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

"Hamish_The_Butler"

Yeah it can be very tricky. Just working through that pseudocode in my head, I think you might have a problem with the "tell me more" case: if they take longer to read the notecard than the timeout of the dialog, the butler won't bother them for $dontBugMe time even if they do want to accept. It depends on exact implementation, but I'd not give two prompts at once: just the notecard, not another dialog, and perhaps a note in the notecard about where to find the butler if you want to explicitly talk to him.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

41 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

Yeah it can be very tricky. Just working through that pseudocode in my head, I think you might have a problem with the "tell me more" case: if they take longer to read the notecard than the timeout of the dialog, the butler won't bother them for $dontBugMe time even if they do want to accept. It depends on exact implementation, but I'd not give two prompts at once: just the notecard, not another dialog, and perhaps a note in the notecard about where to find the butler if you want to explicitly talk to him.

Yep good point. As for getting the butler's attention, there'll be cord in most rooms to ring for him

ETA: If I'm feeling really ambitions I might even look into having him appear as an animesh NPCwhen so summoned

Edited August 23, 2022 by Da5id Weatherwax

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

Maybe, upon arrival, present every new visitor who has not accepted your Experience yet, with a little token (notecard, HUD with text, a simple dialog window even), that lays out the necessity of accepting the Experience for the sake of automatically teleporting through your build for full immersion.

If they do not accept, maybe provide an alternative, like little teleportation poles (simple sit/llSetRegionPos/unsit) that require a single click to send an avatar from A to B.

It's best to test run when your build in place, subject testers to either possibility and ask the testers' honest opinions on what option they like best.

All the theorizing aside, I think you'll just have to try it out.

Side note: I don't mind teleportation and automatic attachments at all in an Experience. What I absolutely hate is the Experience taking over my camera control, though.