About using experiences inworld.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

20 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

warppos

Quote

llSetRegionPos

Edited August 23, 2022 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[Qie Niangao]

This is probably obvious, but… if the visitors will accept an attachment and wear it from inventory, it could do nearly anything you'd want the Experience to do. It can't do per-agent EEP, but otherwise it can llTeleportAgent (because it's not temp-attached), it could even screw around with the cam, and whatever collision scripts that do Experience-based shenanigans could just llRegionSayTo the colliding agent (and hence its attachments) that it's time to do exactly what it would do if it had the agent's experience permissions.

Accepting and wearing an attachment from inventory lies somewhere on the paranoia spectrum, maybe ranked for perceived threat something like:

1. Reading object chat (assuming they're even looking at local chat)
2. Accepting and reading a notecard
3. Clicking a link in object chat
4. Accepting llMapDestination after a touch
5. Accepting llMapDestination from an attachment
6. Following a link from llLoadURL
7. Sitting on a suggested prim
8. Accepting and wearing an attachment
9. Granting experience permissions

As I started listing these I realized I have no practical idea what the actual order of perceived threat may be for the average resident/explorer. I know for sure that granting experience permissions is actually less risky than sitting on a prim or wearing an attachment because it's so easy to remove with certainty all permissions the avatar ever granted an experience. (And there's sorta no limit to how risky a link could be in reality, regardless of how it's presented.)

[Mr Amore]

@Da5id Weatherwax You're overcomplicating a non-issue for yourself. Over the years I've helped a few RP sims set up their Experience teleporters. In all this time I've heard of only one person who refused to join because they couldn't trust the SL Experience.

Meanwhile hundreds of other players enjoyed the convenience of Experience enabled teleportation.

 

Even saying this, I don't accept random Experience popups whilst out shopping, they're as annoying as Group joiners and bots that IM you with welcome messages. And then there are NC and LM givers. Why?

All of which is separate from participating in an Experience you're going to interact with.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

10 minutes ago, Mr Amore said:

@Da5id Weatherwax You're overcomplicating a non-issue for yourself. Over the years I've helped a few RP sims set up their Experience teleporters. In all this time I've heard of only one person who refused to join because they couldn't trust the SL Experience.

Meanwhile hundreds of other players enjoyed the convenience of Experience enabled teleportation.

 

Even saying this, I don't accept random Experience popups whilst out shopping, they're as annoying as Group joiners and bots that IM you with welcome messages. And then there are NC and LM givers. Why?

All of which is separate from participating in an Experience you're going to interact with.

I get what you're saying - and to ME it's a non-issue, to YOU it's a non-issue but this very thread has contained folks that never join experiences, some who had me reaching for my asbestos undies for even considering employing an experience for such a trivial use-case, other opinions too.

So, therefore, it's getting built with a way to still wander most of the build without the experience, even though the experience will make it more seamless. It's also getting code to prevent it bugging folks on every visit and a way for folks to permanently opt out of ever being asked to join the experience.

 

In effect, doing it just like the approach I take when building my home network - to the same standards I'd use for a big corporation just smaller and using less-mindblowingly-pricey kit. (I'm not air-conditioning a data center, but my network rack is fed with cooled air. I'm not paying for redundant fibers but the setup I do have has a cellular broadband device on warm standby and will fail over to it automatically if my fiber goes down for more than 2min. The power infrastructure may not have data center levels of redundancy butevery critical piece of kit is on a UPS specced for 30 minutes runtime at full load. etc etc etc...)

Same approach with the experience and other aspects of this build - I do not expect more than minuscule footfall but those few visitors will be handled with as much care as if it was a high-traffic popular destination.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

It suddenly occurs to me -- I don't know that this is relevant at all, but I find it interesting, and I post to please myself -- that those who are suspicious of Experiences are likely to be older SLers who remember, and likely witnessed first-hand, some of the kinds of griefing that used to be reasonably prevalent in SL in the "Good Old Days," but are really no longer nearly so much in evidence.

I suspect that "newer" residents -- say, within the last half dozen to ten years or so -- have likely never been tricked to sit on something, accept an animation, or take something that it would have been wiser not to.

And my guess, judging from my own memories, is that true noobs very likely have no concerns at all about accepting something like an experience, because it likely hasn't really occurred to them that anyone would want to do something sinister to them.

Just a thought. As I say, I don't know if it's relevant or not.

[Persephone Emerald]

I've been in SL over 13 years and don't fear using Experiences. I consider myself an immersive SL user, so I like the seamless feel when using Experiences. I have RLV enabled, but not open to random people. I know how to log out if I get trapped on something with it, but that's never been a problem for me, because I have it set to only me as the user. 

Btw, Da5id, I probably shouldn't use your Experience, because I like sneaking into places too much & wouldn't like to get trapped.

[Seicher Rae]

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It suddenly occurs to me -- I don't know that this is relevant at all, but I find it interesting, and I post to please myself -- that those who are suspicious of Experiences are likely to be older SLers who remember, and likely witnessed first-hand, some of the kinds of griefing that used to be reasonably prevalent in SL in the "Good Old Days," but are really no longer nearly so much in evidence.

I suspect that "newer" residents -- say, within the last half dozen to ten years or so -- have likely never been tricked to sit on something, accept an animation, or take something that it would have been wiser not to.

And my guess, judging from my own memories, is that true noobs very likely have no concerns at all about accepting something like an experience, because it likely hasn't really occurred to them that anyone would want to do something sinister to them.

Just a thought. As I say, I don't know if it's relevant or not.

Oh she who draws dinosaurs from memory... who are you calling OLD? Plus, you're older than me! Back off bisch.

/me straightens her knickers

This has zero to do with my reticence. It is just a general distrust of stuff I don't know about, and I don't know about Experiences. 

Btw, I have only seeing griefing ONCE the entire time I've been here and that was a few years ago. I forget where I was, but someone rezzed something that kept multiplying all over the place.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

Oh she who draws dinosaurs from memory... who are you calling OLD? Plus, you're older than me! Back off bisch.

/me straightens her knickers

This has zero to do with my reticence. It is just a general distrust of stuff I don't know about, and I don't know about Experiences. 

Btw, I have only seeing griefing ONCE the entire time I've been here and that was a few years ago. I forget where I was, but someone rezzed something that kept multiplying all over the place.

Dahling, it's not always about you!

Like, actually, seriously: I wasn't thinking of you. I was actually thinking of Gabriele's response, and my own.

I very rarely run across Experiences, and mostly when I do, I take them -- but not before taking a moment to investigate who it is coming from, and so on. I don't worry too much about them at stores (although I wish I didn't have to use them there) because I assume a shop owner isn't going to see any advantages to forcing her customers to dance "Day O" naked across the shop floor. But otherwise I am careful, and I have on occasion refused them, even though I've never been griefed by one.

I have, however, been griefed. Which maybe does make me a bit more paranoid?

[Fenix Eldritch]

21 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I know for sure that granting experience permissions is actually less risky than sitting on a prim or wearing an attachment because it's so easy to remove with certainty all permissions the avatar ever granted an experience.

Definitely. The permissions auto-granted when wearing or sitting on an object  persist after detaching, dropping, or standing up. Whereas leaving an experience is guaranteed to revoke all EXP perms.

Moreover, experiences are ultimately tied to premium accounts which means Linden Lab has their IRL information. I imagine this makes abuse reports have much more weight to them, as it's a lot less likely for these to be anonymous throw-away accounts. An experience owner has a lot to lose if they decide to go rogue or even allow griefer contributes to their experience, so I presume the default is for them to be extremely careful in that regard.

So I'd echo what Quartz said on the previous page about trying to educate new users about EXPs. If nothing else, a short blurb on how they always have the power to forget/block/report an abusive experience, and how that will instantly remove any hold it may have had over them. Knowing this may make them feel more confident about trying it out - if temporarily.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

15 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I've been in SL over 13 years and don't fear using Experiences. I consider myself an immersive SL user, so I like the seamless feel when using Experiences. I have RLV enabled, but not open to random people. I know how to log out if I get trapped on something with it, but that's never been a problem for me, because I have it set to only me as the user. 

Btw, Da5id, I probably shouldn't use your Experience, because I like sneaking into places too much & wouldn't like to get trapped.

If you can find the right [REDACTED] to expose the [REDACTED] and trace the right [REDACTED] for that door on it, the door will open and most traps will be off (apart from the ones that are there for fun, at least) - Cam-TP and that's cheating

[Da5id Weatherwax]

19 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It suddenly occurs to me -- I don't know that this is relevant at all, but I find it interesting, and I post to please myself -- that those who are suspicious of Experiences are likely to be older SLers who remember, and likely witnessed first-hand, some of the kinds of griefing that used to be reasonably prevalent in SL in the "Good Old Days," but are really no longer nearly so much in evidence.

I suspect that "newer" residents -- say, within the last half dozen to ten years or so -- have likely never been tricked to sit on something, accept an animation, or take something that it would have been wiser not to.

And my guess, judging from my own memories, is that true noobs very likely have no concerns at all about accepting something like an experience, because it likely hasn't really occurred to them that anyone would want to do something sinister to them.

Just a thought. As I say, I don't know if it's relevant or not.

I'm an "older SLer" in both rezdate and laps around the local RL stellar mass and perhaps you're right, perhaps it is in my contemporaries that I see the reticence. I've tried to work on a build in a sandbox while huddling under my umbrella to avoid the self-replicating bouncing screamers and the downpour of improbably-shaped flying genitalia.

Heck, I've almost got myself banned from a Trek RP group for creating a "griefing tool" when a fellow group member encountered me testing a tribble I was creating for RP... I had to demonstrate to the group owners that they contained a killswitch to instantly erase every tribble in a region. (they were physical though, so if one had rolled over a boundary.. oops).

[Da5id Weatherwax]

3 hours ago, Fenix Eldritch said:

Definitely. The permissions auto-granted when wearing or sitting on an object  persist after detaching, dropping, or standing up. Whereas leaving an experience is guaranteed to revoke all EXP perms.

Yep. Once a script has non-experience perms on you it KEEPS those perms until either it's reset or it requests (and receives) perms from another user.

 

ETA:

Quote

Moreover, experiences are ultimately tied to premium accounts which means Linden Lab has their IRL information.

They sure know who I am. They got my RL name, my RL address, my CC number, the whole nine yards.

I dont hide who I am IRL from people inworld anyway. More than half of my SL "friends" have my RL phone number, for example. Most know my RL name and which city i live in making it a trivial task to find me on the electoral rolls and find out where I live. I find that NOT trying to hide any of "who I really am" goes a long way to calming any anxiety and encouraging trust, which , for my part, I shall always do my best to be worthy of.

Maintaining the access to my land experience has been about 30% of the reason I have always kept premium membership. The other 70% has been wanting to live on MY land, which means mainland and therefore premium.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Da5id Weatherwax

[Seicher Rae]

14 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Dahling, it's not always about you!

Like, actually, seriously: I wasn't thinking of you. I was actually thinking of Gabriele's response, and my own.

 

Dear She Who Draws Dinosaurs From Memory:

 

Also, since I was one of the first in the thread to say "eek they scare me" without being a programmer etc... of course it was about me me me. And you're still older than me.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Seicher Rae

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

And you're still older than me.

/me tries to throw her walker at you

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

Dear She Who Draws Dinosaurs From Memory:

 

Also, since I was one of the first in the thread to say "eek they scare me" without being a programmer etc... of course it was about me me me. And you're still older than me.

Ow, my eyes!

[Da5id Weatherwax]

Ah! Now we see the violencefun inherent in the system!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

Ah! Now we see the violencefun inherent in the system!

I will be careful to think of Seicher first, always, for all future posts.

And make sure I have at least one hard, heavy, throwable object in my bag at all times.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

46 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I will be careful to think of Seicher first, always, for all future posts.

And make sure I have at least one hard, heavy, throwable object in my bag at all times.

You KNOW I've got to give it at least a few hours for Seicher to respond with (one of) the right line(s)

[Lucia Nightfire]

What is everyone's opinion on the possibility of the dialog with the long laundry list of permissions an experience might use going away and replacing it with text that offers a generic explanation such as "Scripts associated with this experience will be able to execute various permissions without prompting the user for better immersion. More info about experiences is covered at https://community.secondlife.com/knowledgebase/english/experiences-in-second-life-r1365/"?

The info at the link would be updated to itemize each permission and what is involved.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Lucia Nightfire

[Rolig Loon]

1 minute ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

What is everyone's opinion on the possibility of the dialog with the long laundry list of permissions an experience might use going away and replacing it with text that offers a generic explanation ...

It's a nice step. Probably not one that would make much difference to people who don't like the idea of agreeing to cede control to a script, but a step in the right direction.  How about just "More info about experiences is covered at https://community.secondlife.com/knowledgebase/english/experiences-in-second-life-r1365/" to save words?

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Rolig Loon said:

It's a nice step. Probably not one that would make much difference to people who don't like the idea of agreeing to cede control to a script, but a step in the right direction.  How about just "More info about experiences is covered at https://community.secondlife.com/knowledgebase/english/experiences-in-second-life-r1365/" to save words?

I still think giving "some" info as to the usage/purpose of experiences in the dialog might be helpful.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

13 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

What is everyone's opinion on the possibility of the dialog with the long laundry list of permissions an experience might use going away and replacing it with text that offers a generic explanation such as "Scripts associated with this experience will be able to execute various permissions without prompting the user for better immersion. More info about experiences is covered at https://community.secondlife.com/knowledgebase/english/experiences-in-second-life-r1365/"?

The info at the link would be updated to itemize each permission and what is involved.

The info provided in the dialog really isn't complete enough to assist most people with making an informed decision anyway. For that, you'd need an impossibly detailed list of what will or might actually transpire if you accept something.

In fact, the list as it stands now is probably more likely to be panic-inducing than otherwise, like an application that tells you it wants to access your camera or gallery without telling you why, or what it is going to do with that.

[Love Zhaoying]

Another amazing idea: Create an option where any "selected" Permissions requested by script (selectable by the user) will trigger a confirmation via MFA Authentication!  (Now that we HAVE MFA Auth..)

Example: If I want to always "make sure" that it was me, not someone else giving "Debit" permissions: Yes, please ask me to confirm via the Authenticator.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Love Zhaoying
One clue this was a "serious" suggestion, is the lack of the self-congratulatory, "Brilliant!"

[Rolig Loon]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Another amazing idea: Create an option where any "selected" Permissions requested by script (selectable by the user) will trigger a confirmation via MFA Authentication!  (Now that we HAVE MFA Auth..)

Example: If I want to always "make sure" that it was me, not someone else giving "Debit" permissions: Yes, please ask me to confirm via the Authenticator.

That sounds sane for PERMISSION_DEBIT, but would you really stand for having to go through MFA every blessed time a script requests PERMISSION_TRIGGER_ANIMATION, PERMISSION_TRIGGER_ANIMATION, or most of the other permissions? That would get very annoying very fast.

BTW, just in case others are not aware, an Experience cannot request PERMISSION_DEBIT. For that one, a script has to use the standard llRequestPermissions process, which opens the scary yellow box to be sure that you know what you are doing. 

[Fenix Eldritch]

@Da5id Weatherwax sure, but my bringing up the IRL info bit was more to drive home the point that these experiences aren't being created by random griefers and there is some actual accountability in effect. I suspect some folks' inherent distrust of granting a laundry list of permissions might relate to a belief to the contrary.

12 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

... replacing it with text that offers a generic explanation such as "Scripts associated with this experience will be able to execute various permissions without prompting the user for better immersion. More info about experiences is covered at...

I'm torn, because I do think having an upfront list of what an experience can do is useful, but at the same time I can see how it may seem alarming to users. It's an extremely hard thing to make informative, but concise.

I recently visited Welcome Back Island and saw the new F1 floater for the first time. I thought that was interesting. Could something like that be worked into the experience request dialog? Like, have the list of each thing an experience can do be a button itself which when interacted with (or maybe moused over) can expand to reveal a more detailed bit of into on that section?