NUX Avatar

[Marianne Little]

I wonder if @Strawberry Lindencan whisper a word to the Zaara creator? To have some of the system clothes brought back? I remember Strawberry showed many of her clothes before she became a Linden.

I still use the leggings (Nishtar?) and they are perfect, great textures. There are some jeans from Zaara that I use too. I have deleted heaps of system clothes, but Zaara stays in my inventory.

A  Senra/NUX shop in the welcome area would be fine, yes?. Some vendors with clothes, and mentors could take newbies there, tell them how vendors work, learn them to buy, unpack and try on clothes.

[Rowan Amore]

27 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

This hair and hairbase is included with the NUX Jamie, and I can't find a negative word to say about it.

The issues I had with the hairbases were the fact they were not shown in inventory as traditional hairbases tattoo but as objects and the ones I did try on were mostly male types (razor fades).  Not that I don't like those myself but I'm guessing they belong to the male NUX?   

[Marianne Little]

8 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The issues I had with the hairbases were the fact they were not shown in inventory as traditional hairbases tattoo but as objects and the ones I did try on were mostly male types (razor fades).  Not that I don't like those myself but I'm guessing they belong to the male NUX?   

The one I have on is a system hairbase. (Some are included with Jamie) I tried the object hairbases, but they clash with the short hair. I did not bother to try on male Senra, and I don't know if he has the same hair. I like that the female have unisex hair.

Better naming would be good. Name the object hair "Buzz cut" "Shaved hair" and try to make them alpha masking. @Patch Linden?

Since you still work with the avatars before all get them.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Marianne Little

[Marianne Little]

Yay, one of my mAlts have access to the Beta grid. I will see what I can do with the male NUX later.

[Drayke Newall]

28 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Without an application process, how would they know who ticked the box?

Fine, if you want to play your usual games and think it shouldn't be on the wiki then all LL need to do is have it so that you log into your account and then you get to download the dev kit from your second life account page. This also doesn't need an application process as by creating a second life account you already have signed a ToS stating that you will not distribute Linden Content to a third party or sell in Second Life.

As I have said there is no situation where an application process is needed for Linden Lab content. Now I am sure you will keep going on saying otherwise and that's your right so going to agree to disagree. 

[Flea Yatsenko]

2 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

To be honest, not sure what you mean.

LL in the past have released all their content relating to their bodies to the wiki with no application process. You can go to their wiki now and download all the bento skeletons, system avatar meshes, etc.

There is zero reason as to why Linden Lab should have an application process to download if all their previous content has been free to download before. Now if the application process is as simple as agreeing to user agreement to not distribute outside of SL then fine, though no person would call that an application process.

If, however, it is giving examples of past experience of work or as mesh body creators now have it in that you have to have a store first, then that is a serious problem as you are gimping the content creation process for new content of the body and limiting the potential creators of clothing for the body on an already narrowing creator interest.

Previously it was stated by lindens that the dev kit would be available to everyone. The notion that there is an application process however goes against that as, the definition of an 'application process' means a person can be rejected.

Hopefully, it is just bad wording and such a process is just agreeing to contracts, though the more that is coming out about this body the more worrying it gets that content for it will be limited.

Templates and starting items should be in the library folder for new users (and everyone else). It instantly tells new users that content is user created and they are encouraged to create content. 99% of them who try will probably fail but it changes the new user experience from "I'm going to dress up my AV" to "Woah I can make stuff and make money! I have a long term goal of things to do in SL"

I highly doubt it's going to cannibalize other sales. People spend money to look unique in SL and a mesh body, no matter how nice, if anyone has access to it, it's just not very unique. It's just a matter of time until it becomes the "noob body" and people are spending money on different bodies. So it only really needs to be good for new users to get them involved with SL.

NUX has a chance to show new users it's easy, fun, and profitable to create content for SL. A big chance to show new users what makes SL so unique (user generated content) is being squandered here.

I mean if you want to get good user retention, showing a new user you can make money in SL and giving them what they need to get started is a great way to give them a long term goal to stay in SL and to keep them logging in.

[Marianne Little]

These avatars can be for alts too. So long as it is content for them. I think that the Library selection of clothes and skins for Senra is not exiting, and the clothes, hair and skins mark people as newbies more than the bodies.

It was why I got the idea about bringing back some retired clothes. I can't expect creators to work free for LL.(I would not do it)

But if they haven't trashed their uploads, they could be kind and donate a few things to a Senra shop in the welcome hub? It would be no additional cost for them.

Maybe it could be clothes you pay for in that store too. At least posters with tempting pictures of what newbies can buy in the creators stores.

[Rowan Amore]

20 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

But if they haven't trashed their uploads, they could be kind and donate a few things to a Senra shop in the welcome hub? It would be no additional cost for them.

I've mentioned this a couple times in either this thread or another.  

It's a perfect way to introduce new users to content creators who they may choose to buy from in the future.

There's really no down side to dragging out that older skin, (the one I used was from Glam) fixing up the nails and toes and passing it along to new users for free.  

[Katherine Heartsong]

13 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

The only other possible way for Linden Lab to solve the issue (and the best way to fix the issue) is to remove the need to use alpha layers on worn mesh objects entirely and make their use only situational (rarely used). To do this LL would need to allow for shape deformation to be allowed on individually worn mesh objects.

Basically what this would mean is that a content creator would be able to create a jacket and then have that jacket able to deform the mesh under it or have the mesh deform based on the mesh under it. This requires additional effort at a creation point of view but for the end user it would basically mean you can wear multiple layers without them ever hitting each other. This is called wrap deforming and has been around for well over a decade.

We do have a form of mesh deforming in Second Life such as being able to wear an invisible object that can make a tail longer or shorter even if it is rigged, however, nothing where you can deform mesh individually based on layers. For example, wear a mesh shirt and it deforms the shirt to the shape of the body and then wear a mesh jacket and it deforms the jacket to match the mesh shirt ensuring that there is a slight 'airgap' between.

If such deformation was possible it would solve all of the alpha issues and many complexities a new user has as it would mean that rather your body being fit to suit the jacket, the jacket is fitted to your body shape. i.e. jacket may be smaller than your arm thickness so by alphaing your arms you are not keeping your actual shape whereas with wrap deforming your jacket matches the thickness of your arm shape keeping your true shape.

Yes, please.

[Marianne Little]

29 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I've mentioned this a couple times in either this thread or another.  

It's a perfect way to introduce new users to content creators who they may choose to buy from in the future.

There's really no down side to dragging out that older skin, (the one I used was from Glam) fixing up the nails and toes and passing it along to new users for free.  

I'm not sure if it was about new rigged clothes or not. I remember reading some about a Senra shop back in the thread - this one or the Welcome hub thread(s).

But if creators have to first rig, then upload mesh models and textures, I am not sure they can do it.

Creators are working with so many bodies and the competition is hard. And people know about the sales. I for one, do not shop much anymore. I shop in sales, in the Outlet and in the weekend sales.

Maybe some creators will rig and upload because they do it for the community. We will see.

The already uploaded content does not demand that they spend money on it. It is also a way to let newbies get used to BOM, it will be natural to continue using it on leggings, underwear and other tight clothes. I know I love my system leggings when I will use boots. They always fit!

[Rowan Amore]

9 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I'm not sure if it was about new rigged clothes or not. I remember reading some about a Senra shop back in the thread - this one or the Welcome hub thread(s).

But if creators have to first rig, then upload mesh models and textures, I am not sure they can do it.

Creators are working with so many bodies and the competition is hard. And people know about the sales. I for one, do not shop much anymore. I shop in sales, in the Outlet and in the weekend sales.

Maybe some creators will rig and upload because they do it for the community. We will see.

The already uploaded content does not demand that they spend money on it. It is also a way to let newbies get used to BOM, it will be natural to continue using it on leggings, underwear and other tight clothes. I know I love my system leggings when I will use boots. They always fit!

I agree.  Bring back LeeZu stuff.  She has a couple of shirts left on the MP that I picked up.  Older Baiastice, too!

[Love Zhaoying]

I think the "bestest" (most entertaining) initial Senra users will look like "broken-down drag queens" (and I mean that affectionately as an Ally of the Drag community):

- Poorly-fitting hair ("bad wig" in RL)

- Platform shoes you can't get your feet in ("high heels" in RL for someone who's never worn them)

- Poorly fitting clothing with body parts poking through ("stumbling home after a night out" in RL)

- Makeup disaster (you get the idea)

etc.

[AzureWaves]

The problem with trying to make NUX look good with old skins/discontinued system skins is new users don't have access to this so they have to make do with what is available and a lot of the system skins now are BOM skins, fitted for specific mesh heads from popular brands. I would not try to work too hard retrofitting NUX to older content, that defeats the purpose of NUX.

Edited July 21, 2023 by AzureWaves

[AzureWaves]

29 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think the "bestest" (most entertaining) initial Senra users will look like "broken-down drag queens" (and I mean that affectionately as an Ally of the Drag community):

- Poorly-fitting hair ("bad wig" in RL)

- Platform shoes you can't get your feet in ("high heels" in RL for someone who's never worn them)

- Poorly fitting clothing with body parts poking through ("stumbling home after a night out" in RL)

- Makeup disaster (you get the idea)

etc.

I got the impression that LL is making gender-neutral avatars with these names and giving both Jamie and Blake the same inventory, including the same hair and dresses for both. You're not wrong that they're probably going for some type of gender fluid situation.

[Persephone Emerald]

32 minutes ago, AzureWaves said:

The problem with trying to make NUX look good with old skins/discontinued system skins is new users don't have access to this so they have to make do with what is available and a lot of the system skins now are BOM skins, fitted for specific mesh heads from popular brands. I would not try to work too hard retrofitting NUX to older content, that defeats the purpose of NUX.

Skins made for Genus or Lelutka Evolution should work pretty well on the heads. Bonus if the newbie gets the free Genus head, because then these skins will work for it too.

Patch said they were working with major creators on these Senra avatars. What if Lelutka/ Lepeau makes a couple free newbie skins for them? That would be a great way to get new users into their store. If Belleza is smart, they'll do that too, as well as making Venus a $L 1 body. All the big skin makers should make some free or $L 10 skins for these bodies. Touch up some old skins so the faces, feet and hands look ok.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Persephone Emerald

[Scylla Rhiadra]

36 minutes ago, AzureWaves said:

I would not try to work too hard retrofitting NUX to older content, that defeats the purpose of NUX.

This, I think. especially as Patch has made it clear that Senra is about the early new user experience, and not, apparently anyway, about rethinking or reforming the customization system.

Some of these older skins look pretty good on Jamie (as opposed to the newer ones I tried, which were not good fits), but sending noobs scurrying around looking for hard-to-find older accessories does entirely defeat the point of making this a simple and intuitive process for new residents.

They need a reasonable supply of dedicated accessories (skins, hair, and clothing) that are (key here!) easy to find, access, use, and not too expensive.

[Marianne Little]

16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This, I think. especially as Patch has made it clear that Senra is about the early new user experience, and not, apparently anyway, about rethinking or reforming the customization system.

Some of these older skins look pretty good on Jamie (as opposed to the newer ones I tried, which were not good fits), but sending noobs scurrying around looking for hard-to-find older accessories does entirely defeat the point of making this a simple and intuitive process for new residents.

They need a reasonable supply of dedicated accessories (skins, hair, and clothing) that are (key here!) easy to find, access, use, and not too expensive.

I agree 100% that it must be easy to get what newbies need.

LL gave us BOM and I can't see them taking it away. And BOM clothes is the same as system clothes and used the same way. It can not be wrong to let newbies learn BOM as well as rigged mesh. 

And they need to know vendors and not think that all rigged mesh will fit them. That every mesh body is different.

Some new users come to the avatar part of the forums and have bought some obsolete mesh avatar from the marketplace, and now they can't find things for it. Like the Lena Lush.

Or even worse, some avatar uploaded from a game and it is nothing at all for it. It is many ways to stumble through SL and waste money because no one learnt you about the jungle that is mesh avatars... So a Senra shop will be good for them.

I have an inventory with over 100 K in it and have probably deleted five times as much. I can dig out a lot and no newbie will find what I have.

It would be great to see some system clothes get a new life, if the content creators would agree. Maybe even update a few skins and cover the painted on nails. Lots and lots of clothing and skins is retired. I will not buy Senra skins/clothes because I have a better option, but newbies might get interested in buying low priced things for it. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Marianne Little

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Three quick thoughts on the clarification from Patch and the disagreement with Qie.

1) I absolutely agree in principle with Patch's notion that Senra should be about improving and, hopefully, streamlining the new user experience. That is the the most important part of this puzzle, even if it's not the only objective. For that to work, however, the Lab is going to have to put real effort, as I've already said, into producing intuitive and easy to use instructions and documentation. No, not just "Read Me" notecards (which almost no one ever reads) but some kind of actual visual interface, even if it just involves HUD attachments, that mimics to some extent the kind of systems available for avatar customization on other platforms.

2) I also agree with Qie that I don't understand how making these items full perm frustrates that. Noobs aren't going to start editing their items unless someone tells them to. And the opportunity that better perms would offer for our creative community to innovate and make better content for noobs, and others, is one that shouldn't be passed up.

3) The SL creative community has a long history of running with whatever the platform makes available and doing its own things with it anyway. However this system eventually looks, I'm pretty confident that some people are going to take it in directions that no one currently foresees.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra
Grammar can be hard. And I can be stoopid.

[Paul Hexem]

15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

as Patch has made it clear that Senra is about the early new user experience, and not, apparently anyway, about rethinking or reforming the customization system.

Patch is wrong. This is about LL half assing it (again) and patting themselves on the back for Residents' hard work.

It's not his fault though. His bosses threw him into the gladiator colosseum armed with a spoon on this one.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

It would be great to see some system clothes get a new life, if the content creators would agree. Maybe even update a few skins and cover the painted on nails. Lots and lots of clothing and skins is retired. I will not buy Senra skins/clothes because I have a better option, but newbies might get interested in buying low priced things for it.

I don't at all disagree, but I've highlighted the bit about content creators because, for this to work properly, these older products need to be "repackaged," in a sense. Not necessarily "improved" or "updated" (although that would be nice), but made easy to find and use for noobs.

What we don't want, I think, is new residents being told to scour the backrooms of skin and clothing makers looking for hidden away gems from the past. It needs to be upfront, easy to find, and clearly associated with Senra.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Patch is wrong.

Let's just say that we agree that this is a lost opportunity. 🙂

(I'm feeling "diplomatic" today!)

[KathrynLisbeth]

Too lazy to look at in Aditi..  so please clarify

If the Skullcap type hair objects are named hairbase then is just 'Well here is more jumbled vocabulary and definitions'.   However if are just being referred to in this thread as such, disregard.

Current usage is hairbase for both the old system hair (head icon), and tattoo or universal layers with the that function as also named hairbases.   Which already can make communication of how to debug a system hair poke thru to be problematic.

So as an aside, if not already present in the NUX heads, 

It would be EXCEEDINGLY useful to have a additional object face hidden and set to alpha and set to grab away the system hair channel.  This then just makes 'Poke thru'  go away.

But back to skullcap hair objects...

They are needed if used with an avatar head that is SL UV mapped.   If one attempts to just use a layer to paint a hairbase,  there is a crack in the top of the head due to the SL UV map itself. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by KathrynLisbeth

[Rowan Amore]

9 minutes ago, KathrynLisbeth said:

Too lazy to look at in Aditi..  so please clarify

If the Skullcap type hair objects are named hairbase then is just 'Well here is more jumbled vocabulary and definitions'.   However if are just being referred to in this thread as such, disregard.

Current usage is hairbase for both the old system hair (head icon), and tattoo or universal layers with the that function as also named hairbases.   Which already can make communication of how to debug a system hair poke thru to be problematic.

So as an aside, if not already present in the NUX heads, 

It would be EXCEEDINGLY useful to have a additional object face hidden and set to alpha and set to grab away the system hair channel.

But back to skullcap hair objects...

They are needed if used with an avatar head that is SL UV mapped.   If one attempts to just use a layer to paint a hairbase,  there is a crack in the top of the head due to the SL UV map itself. 

The skullcap is called Hair not hairbase.  At least the one I tried on and showed a picture of was.  I didn't copy the entire folder for Jamie so there might be tattoo hairbases that look the same.  They could call it hairbase Hair but if I saw it on someone, I'd assume it was a tattoo hairbase.

 

 

[KathrynLisbeth]

12 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The skullcap is called Hair not hairbase...

Yeah.  I can see the potential for visual confusion.

As long as new end user sees in inventory an object icon with associated name of hair,  then is more apt to grasp the connection / pattern.

Interesting screenshot, though.

Animation Controller?     Okay.    *whispers*   Animation Override Controller, maybe?

Experienced user:  "New guy.  Turn on your AO (animation override)"    Reply; "Huh?  What?"

Experienced user:  "Hey new guy.  You need to turn on your AC."   Reply:  "But is January in Upstate New York!"

It only seems Pedantic,  but preexisting term is preexisting.  Like Skullcap Object hair is HAIR

[Conifer Dada]

I've been back to the Beta Grid to try out 'Blake', the male NUX avatar, out of curiosity. I chose one of the Blake shapes and one of the Blake skins.  This male avatar doesn't have any of the shortcomings I mentioned in relation to the female one. True, the standard Blake might not have the friendliest of facial expressions, but it wouldn't take much to change that (if you want to look friendly, that is!)

I suppose one difference is that with the Jamie avatar, I wanted to see how close I could get to my present appearance, and didn't have much success. With the Blake one I wasn't aiming to look like anyone in particular, just a realistic man.

The walk animations in the AO for both female and male are worse than the basic LL 2003 walk! The run animation is OK and the stand animations are passable, though.

I am conscious that these might just be test versions on the Beta Grid and that Jamie and Blake might be joined by other avatar choices in the future.

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Conifer Dada