What Will Be Done with Inventory Organization?

[Sid Nagy]

As a creator I feel responsible to make a good product for a fair price.
To me that does not include to have even more on my hands because not all residents are really good in organizing their inventory.
RL retailers are not overly concerned about the clutter in a lot of kitchen cabinets and wardrobes either, are they?

The problem lies with ourselves. We find it more entertaining to create 4 different shades of red for the same hair, than to make 4 differently meaningful named folders for them in our hair folder.

Now I have a folder with the name "before 2018" in my inventory.
The worst place in SL to be I guess. 
When I started again after a longer break in 2018, I was lost in my own inventory. So I decided to dump almost everything I had in my inventory into 'before 2018'.
I started with a clean sheet that way on an old avatar, without dismissing all the goodies.
This time I 'designed' a more or less logical very detailed tree structure in my inventory and whenever I buy something new, first thing I do is store it at the proper place, give it its own folder there if needed.

Over the last 4 years I made lots of excursions into the "before 2018" folder, every time when I need something from the older stuff. When I find the right thing, I transfer it right away into its new place in the new tree structure.
These excursions are almost always time consuming, but they get less and less.  I have transferred 70-80% of the still usable stuff by now.
I think that I will delete the 'before 2018' folder somewhere at the end of this year.

Then I will start to take on my "archive" folder, where I dump all the boxes after unpacking things.
Another design flaw (created by myself) in my inventory.  But I don't hold the creators of those boxes responsible. It is my own lack of thinking things trough properly in the past. Maybe just deleting 'archive' (or at least large parts of it) will be the most logical thing to do.

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Sid Nagy
I had not enough coffee yet.

[Arielle Popstar]

17 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

I did also pose a solution - I could write a script that would allow it, but it would just place the original name perhaps in the description field. Would that be a happy medium or unacceptable? (Seems like a fair solution to me) rather than say promoting that creators have to change their permissions for an activity that perhaps the majority of players won't need or care about.

If your solution allows me to change and see the new name then great. If you are going to change the description field, maybe you could put in the MP url for the specific item? That would be a real bonus because in my experience with various scanning huds, they never have that and in spite seeing the creators name, it still leaves me to often do a lot of searching for the specific item and I would venture that in 25% of cases, I never do find the item, even with knowing the creator and item name. Perhaps it was only sold inworld.

Quote

Wouldn't this fall under LL's responsibility to ensure in the UI that you could see the underlying name of the product?

Think it depends on the packaging system used from Caspar Vend or others. Not sure how much control LL has of those creators but likely not something they would involve themselves with.

Quote

I can see it possibly needed for the use cases you presented, and forgive me for some ignorance in some things - as I don't buy a lot of shoes or clothing with huds, and my bias will most likely be from an asset/creation/gadget building position that may make me blind to some issues.

I can understand that and have heard similar from other creators, especially dare I say it, male avatars who tend to use a lot less variations of hair, body, skins etc. They seem more able to get away with just an annual clothing change 😀

[Lindal Kidd]

4 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

Then I will start to take on my "archive" folder, where I dump all the boxes after unpacking things.

This is certainly the safer approach. I live my SLife a bit more on the edge...once I've unpacked a box, I delete it! (Gasps of shock and horror from the audience!!)

I figure that 1) there's usually Redelivery to save me if I really need it, and 2) if there isn't...shrug. C'est la vie seconde!

[Arielle Popstar]

4 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

As a creator I feel responsible to make a good product for a fair price.
To me that does not include to have even more on my hands because not all residents are really good in organizing their inventory.
RL retailers are not overly concerned about the clutter in a lot of kitchen cabinets and wardrobes either, are they?

The problem lies with ourselves. We find it more entertaining to create 4 different shades of red for the same hair, than to make 4 differently meaningful named folders for them in our hair folder.

Not entertaining but less frustrating. Consider that for some of us who purchase a lot of clothing and then put together different outfits and then want to try out different shades of red on it for example, each folder we have to create then drill down to each time we want to find a particular shade, is another click that adds up very quickly to becoming a source of aggravation until it is no longer fun. A text based Inventory system is challenging at the best of times in comparison to a graphical one but combining that with having to have each variation in its own separate folder is more effort in setting it up and then clicking down to open and wear each vs just going through one folder with different named versions of that shade and trying it on.

I notice too in your post that it took a number of years to develop the system that works for you. Consider that each resident who stays for any length of time has to do the same and in each case it is a workaround to account for the lack of foresight and ongoing development of the one UI that the majority of us use daily. Anything that betters the usability and friendliness of the viewer will have an impact on how long residents will stay because it is my opinion, that much of the new and old user attrition experienced is ultimately because the platform/game isn't fun due to all the frustrations involved in living a second life here.

[Arielle Popstar]

21 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

This is certainly the safer approach. I live my SLife a bit more on the edge...once I've unpacked a box, I delete it! (Gasps of shock and horror from the audience!!)

I figure that 1) there's usually Redelivery to save me if I really need it, and 2) if there isn't...shrug. C'est la vie seconde!

Oh you probably already know this but I found a really cool redelivery terminal at the INITHIUM main store the other day. As I was clicking it to update the body I have, it showed me not only the products from that store, but also the products from all other stores I have items from that have redelivery options. It does so by showing the actual Product picture and through that I found a whole slew of products I have bought but I had not only forgotten the name of but that I even owned it! Every friend I have brought there to try it out had the same thing where they rediscovered a slew of items they had forgotten about. "Happy dance!"

[Sid Nagy]

50 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

This is certainly the safer approach. I live my SLife a bit more on the edge...once I've unpacked a box, I delete it! (Gasps of shock and horror from the audience!!)

I figure that 1) there's usually Redelivery to save me if I really need it, and 2) if there isn't...shrug. C'est la vie seconde!

I'm leaning towards that solution for my 'archive' folder as well, but I have to check a few things first. before I will push the 'delete' button.
Better safe than sorry and all that.

On the bright side: My inventory is more than 1000 items lighter since this morning.
I did some spring cleaning.
I kicked out a lot of old (mostly system) clothing and avatars that I never ever use anymore and then emptied trash and lost and found.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Sid Nagy

[Lindal Kidd]

4 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

I kicked out a lot of old clothing and avatars

[kali Wylder]

So if I don't have more than 5,000 objects in a single folder will they leave my inventory alone?

[Paulsian]

the slu video re this subject was good was mentioned that it would be helpful to have photos of objects in inventory as reference to outfits. creators should not have to take the extra time to upload a photo at a cost to include with product because, when we list on marketplace an image is uploaded to there without a fee , maybe that photo in marketplace can be included with marketplace purchases to be used as a reference. less hassle for creators and the photos in marketplace are already there. Im really not a fan of some creators photos included its not consistant and is mess which could easily be solved with minimal intervention.

its really not a big deal to me but if i had to fix that problem i would maybe consider above. the marketplace inventory should not be ignored. I think it would be helpful to have way to select all demos and delete, i really dont like scrolling through page after page of those or way to hide demos and delete if desired.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Paulsian

[Nalates Urriah]

 

On 5/19/2022 at 3:27 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

Thanks for that pointer. I didn't think to look in the Tech forums.

But it still doesn't say WHAT exactly they will do, merely that they will inform you, and presumably give you the option of declining? -- and it doesn't start until June 21st.

What is the plan, then? If it means more folders by year and more alphabetical folders like "A-K," it's not a help really. Unless they really have to force this on those of us with giant inventories. In which case I can only hope that they organize unsorted things in the big grab bag of "objects" (under the folders) and -- all those folders under "objects" from merchants that aren't in MY folders. I hope they don't undo my folders, which took a lot of hours of work.

When this problem first came up a couple of years ago the Linden engineers wrote a utility for the support personnel. People with flat inventories were having problems logging in. Seems the system downloads inventory folder-by-folder. So folders with more than 5k items were taking too long to download and the viewer or server, I forget which, was timing out and canceling the download.

The fix was to divide the contents of a folder up into sub folders. This is what the utility script given to support did. I suspect that is what they will be doing this time. Except they are not waiting for people to be locked out.

Since moving to the cloud they have more diagnostic tools. It may be they can now see border line inventory issues and plan to head them off... or so I speculate.

On 5/19/2022 at 6:26 PM, Arielle Popstar said:

The problem as I understand it is that there are too many folders, not how many items are in each. Currently I have to create and name a folder for each body (as an example) with some particular skin, as most bodies come with a no mod name. If I could append the no mod name with a 3-5 letter alpha numeric prefix, I could put all the bodies in one folder and be able to differentiate between them, without having to wear each in turn until I find the right one. Hence the most obvious and easiest solution is to put each body variation in its own folder. 

The Lab has had 18 or so years to come up with a more efficient system to circumvent the issue so I don't expect they will do anything now but they could probably just as easily have whatever system that does the unpacking, put new items under the proper system folder to avoid this top level flat inventory structure. I mean, why do we have these system folders if the unpacking process isn't putting the new stuff there to begin with or at the very least, give us that option of where to put it on unpacking? 

It really is a small wonder people's inventories get into such a mess when even the most basic of filing structure functions are not included in the viewers. 

No... folders are not the problem. Too many items in a folder is the common problem.

On 5/19/2022 at 4:35 PM, Arielle Popstar said:

I like my millipede and would much rather the Lab spend some time giving us some better inventory management tools like the ability to modify or at the very least prefix the name of an inventory item so I can put all my different body or head configurations in one folder, rather than spread them over multiple folders just to be able to differentiate between them because the No Modify permission doesn't allow me to change or modify an inventory item name. The technical issue comes as a result of them not having done anything to upgrade the the whole inventory system in the first place.

If they do the repair as we have seen them do before, your basic structure will remain. Things will be added within existing folders. However, that is speculation based on what they did before.

Depending on your computer and quality of your network connection and possibly the load on the region server, you'll start to encounter inventory load problems around 5,000 items in a folder. It can be way sooner or way later. But when we were taking about the problem in the Server User Group that was the number the Lindens were using. Consider it an average.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 5/21/2022 at 7:32 PM, Nalates Urriah said:

 

When this problem first came up a couple of years ago the Linden engineers wrote a utility for the support personnel. People with flat inventories were having problems logging in. Seems the system downloads inventory folder-by-folder. So folders with more than 5k items were taking too long to download and the viewer or server, I forget which, was timing out and canceling the download.

The fix was to divide the contents of a folder up into sub folders. This is what the utility script given to support did. I suspect that is what they will be doing this time. Except they are not waiting for people to be locked out.

Since moving to the cloud they have more diagnostic tools. It may be they can now see border line inventory issues and plan to head them off... or so I speculate.

No... folders are not the problem. Too many items in a folder is the common problem.

If they do the repair as we have seen them do before, your basic structure will remain. Things will be added within existing folders. However, that is speculation based on what they did before.

Depending on your computer and quality of your network connection and possibly the load on the region server, you'll start to encounter inventory load problems around 5,000 items in a folder. It can be way sooner or way later. But when we were taking about the problem in the Server User Group that was the number the Lindens were using. Consider it an average.

Maybe the folders aren't some technical problem per se, but they create the proliferation of items that makes fat and slow inventories. There are just way too many folders because of the automatic unpacking set-ups that so many merchants have today, because they think people can't learn how to drag items out of a box and put it into inventory (as we all learned to do as newbies). This has proliferated scripts and items just hideously in SL.

You quickly forget what is in those folders or may not even realize an item is *in* a folder. I am constantly whittling back those folders by consolidating them and removing the excess. So they are indeed the main obstacle, because "too many friends" or "extra boxes and LMs" just aren't as big a problem as folders from merchants.

[Love Zhaoying]

On 5/19/2022 at 4:14 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

What exactly are the Lindens planning to do here with this Inventory Organization deal?

Probably, just "un-flatten" inventory folders that are a) one-level deep and  that also b) contain over some huge limit of items (all at the same folder level). That is the issue which has been discussed; assuming I have represented the issue accurately, while I am also attempting to simplify the issue into only a few words. 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

On 5/20/2022 at 5:51 PM, Codex Alpha said:

I would be kind of against allowing people to rename my objects, as they are named appropriately with the edition already, and don't really think this is a very needed feature. Are we going to see campaigns from people now "Don't buy from creators with no mod, no copy, no rename!" now too?

Just sell your products as mod ^^

[Codex Alpha]

1 hour ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Just sell your products as mod ^^

Thanks, but I know this already and is repeated quite often enough, and completely ignores the valid reasons why some of us don't want to (without a solution provided) - eg. Making a building modularly with pieces in SL, and selling it as a build as a whole - but effectively with mod and copy becomes a building asset pack at a much lower price. This is because the end use of a building or home in it's entirety and it's price would greatly differ from a price if the same parts were advertised as a building asset pack. Of course this doesn't apply to all products and all things, but it does to many a thing. What say you on that matter?

[Gabriele Graves]

5 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

Thanks, but I know this already and is repeated quite often enough, and completely ignores the valid reasons why some of us don't want to (without a solution provided) - eg. Making a building modularly with pieces in SL, and selling it as a build as a whole - but effectively with mod and copy becomes a building asset pack at a much lower price. This is because the end use of a building or home in it's entirety and it's price would greatly differ from a price if the same parts were advertised as a building asset pack. Of course this doesn't apply to all products and all things, but it does to many a thing. What say you on that matter?

I am quoting this but responding to the general audience in case that is not clear.  I would think the solution would be quite simple and obvious.  Sell those items as no-mod for the usual price and sell a mod version for the whatever higher price is acceptable so that people can choose.  Of course in these types of discussions, the goal-posts then inevitably shift to time, resources, yada-yada as being the problem preventing that simple thing being offered.

[Gabriele Graves]

Back on topic.  I found this while checking the wiki limits for another thread (https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Limits), thought it was informative and didn't see that anyone else had posted it:

• Maximum number of inventory items displayed in a single inventory folder: Several thousand.
  • This was discussed during [1] "the folder will load up to the limit number of items, and remaining ones won't show up in the viewer. you still own them, they aren't lost, but they will be hidden until the folder size is reduced."
  • There is no specified limit for total avatar inventory, very large folders can be split.
  • There was discussion in the Third Party Developers' UG (4/10/2015) meeting about new inventory and login problems from having large numbers of items in a single folder. AISv3 removed server-side limits on the number of items in a folder. Flat inventories are bad. No one is certain at what number of items in a folder cause a login problem. The fix is to clear the inventory cache (not the viewer cache) and log into a deserted, empty region then move inventory items into folders and sub-folders. - The problem appears at different a number of items depending on your computer and connection speed. Hopefully being on an empty region will give one enough edge to get logged in and do some corrective work before being dropped. If not, you will need to contact support for help. They will divide large folders into smaller groups so you can log in.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

7 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

Thanks, but I know this already and is repeated quite often enough, and completely ignores the valid reasons why some of us don't want to (without a solution provided) - eg. Making a building modularly with pieces in SL, and selling it as a build as a whole - but effectively with mod and copy becomes a building asset pack at a much lower price. This is because the end use of a building or home in it's entirety and it's price would greatly differ from a price if the same parts were advertised as a building asset pack. Of course this doesn't apply to all products and all things, but it does to many a thing. What say you on that matter?

That's because literally no one is going to agree with your reasoning, so the subject will keep coming up again, and again.

[Love Zhaoying]

15 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

That's because literally no one is going to agree with your reasoning, so the subject will keep coming up again, and again.

I'm a go back and agree, to see what happens.

[Love Zhaoying]

22 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

Thanks, but I know this already and is repeated quite often enough, and completely ignores the valid reasons why some of us don't want to (without a solution provided) - eg. Making a building modularly with pieces in SL, and selling it as a build as a whole - but effectively with mod and copy becomes a building asset pack at a much lower price. This is because the end use of a building or home in it's entirety and it's price would greatly differ from a price if the same parts were advertised as a building asset pack. Of course this doesn't apply to all products and all things, but it does to many a thing. What say you on that matter?

I fully support creator's rights! 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

I would like some automated inventory tools like "sort the contents of this particular folder into subfolders by X period." (Days, months, years, whatever.) I am entirely too lazy to do that by hand after so many years, and I'd probably make a mistake somewhere.

Or an archive feature where you can move specific folders into an entirely separate inventory that isn't loaded by default. Kinda like the "Library" inventory which can be disabled. It's not that I have too much stuff, I just don't use the majority of it regularly. It would be nice to have an almost fresh start without actually nuking your inventory.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Buttacwup Float]

I am on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to putting things into folders from most people.  😃

 

 

[Charlotte Bartlett]

On 5/24/2022 at 12:01 PM, Codex Alpha said:

Thanks, but I know this already and is repeated quite often enough, and completely ignores the valid reasons why some of us don't want to (without a solution provided) - eg. Making a building modularly with pieces in SL, and selling it as a build as a whole - but effectively with mod and copy becomes a building asset pack at a much lower price. This is because the end use of a building or home in it's entirety and it's price would greatly differ from a price if the same parts were advertised as a building asset pack. Of course this doesn't apply to all products and all things, but it does to many a thing. What say you on that matter?

Honestly giving your customers the opportunity to do more with your stuff doesn't limit your income, it increases it - as the market is bigger for mod/copy so you get more sales.
That being said if you are using building assets (full perms) and don't create your own builds and just compile things, I understand the restrictions you may be under.

I have had customers on my side reuse windows, roofs, doors, walls to create their own "versions" of things.   They can't resell them so more power to them creating something they love.   To the point a customer created a version of a build using my arches, windows, floors etc to a brand new style of build that was so popular I am now making a version of it (with their permission!) as customers love it!  Spread the creativity I say.

[Codex Alpha]

4 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

Honestly giving your customers the opportunity to do more with your stuff doesn't limit your income, it increases it - as the market is bigger for mod/copy so you get more sales.
That being said if you are using building assets (full perms) and don't create your own builds and just compile things, I understand the restrictions you may be under.

I have had customers on my side reuse windows, roofs, doors, walls to create their own "versions" of things.   They can't resell them so more power to them creating something they love.   To the point a customer created a version of a build using my arches, windows, floors etc to a brand new style of build that was so popular I am now making a version of it (with their permission!) as customers love it!  Spread the creativity I say.

Good advice. As I keep reaching next milestones in skill and access to higher levels, new concerns come up that weren't there before, always good to get constructive responses and things to consider, thanks

[Lindal Kidd]

THERE VILL BE SHTRICT ORDER!