What Will Be Done with Inventory Organization?

[Prokofy Neva]

What exactly are the Lindens planning to do here with this Inventory Organization deal?

Starting Tuesday, June 21st, Support will implement a process to stabilize only those inventories affected.  For the small group of Residents this affects, you may see a change to the organization of your inventory, but all your objects are still there.  If you encounter any difficulty with your inventory, please reach out to our Support Team https://support.secondlife.com

I imagine I fall into this category with an inventory now at 216,781 items and 11,927 folders.

See, I do work on cleaning it because the other day I had 12,000 folders exactly and now I am down to 11,927. So many merchants send things from packaging into folders and that's actually how inventory clutters up for me and things sink down to oblivion -- they aren't in "objects" at the top, but alphabetized in endless folders. It seems fairly obvious to consolidate the many folders, putting all the items from one creator into one folder, and deleting all the junk they include with notecards, instructions about LOD you've seen thousands of times before, landmarks, etc. For every single item. It's not demos, it's not all those extra names, it's folders.

I once reached a point where I simply couldn't even log on. So the Lindens took over my account for several days and removed some corrupted items but also re-ordered the inventory, making both alphabetical folders and folders by date. These were not terribly helpful, and I still whittle away at folders like "2017" with 1,000 items in it, many of them single-copy gatchas. Sure, you can look up an item and find it, regardless of how you have it or of how they put it. But it's not really memorable or accessible. I already have an elaborate systems of folders and sub-folders under "Objects" and I hope whatever they do doesn't disrupt it.

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Prokofy Neva

[LittleMe Jewell]

19 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So the Lindens took over my account for several days and removed some corrupted items but also re-ordered the inventory, making both alphabetical folders and folders by date.

My guess is that anyone that currently has an inventory that is somewhat flat, might have this done to it automatically.  However, per Kiera's comments (see below), it looks like LL will definitely contact anyone first.

 

 

[Codex Alpha]

I dunno. Personally I'd like to move to this system.

Imagine having 20,000 items with no folders at all! HAHHAA

[Prokofy Neva]

1 hour ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

My guess is that anyone that currently has an inventory that is somewhat flat, might have this done to it automatically.  However, per Kiera's comments (see below), it looks like LL will definitely contact anyone first.

 

 

Thanks for that pointer. I didn't think to look in the Tech forums.

But it still doesn't say WHAT exactly they will do, merely that they will inform you, and presumably give you the option of declining? -- and it doesn't start until June 21st.

What is the plan, then? If it means more folders by year and more alphabetical folders like "A-K," it's not a help really. Unless they really have to force this on those of us with giant inventories. In which case I can only hope that they organize unsorted things in the big grab bag of "objects" (under the folders) and -- all those folders under "objects" from merchants that aren't in MY folders. I hope they don't undo my folders, which took a lot of hours of work.

[Polenth Yue]

20 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Thanks for that pointer. I didn't think to look in the Tech forums.

But it still doesn't say WHAT exactly they will do, merely that they will inform you, and presumably give you the option of declining? -- and it doesn't start until June 21st.

What is the plan, then? If it means more folders by year and more alphabetical folders like "A-K," it's not a help really. Unless they really have to force this on those of us with giant inventories. In which case I can only hope that they organize unsorted things in the big grab bag of "objects" (under the folders) and -- all those folders under "objects" from merchants that aren't in MY folders. I hope they don't undo my folders, which took a lot of hours of work.

The point of what they're doing is to solve a technical issue, rather than to make it easier for people to find things. That's why they're warning people, so people can sort their inventories in a way that works for them, and then not need any automatic fix. I expect it will be doing what happened to you: taking the objects and stuffing them in a bunch of new folders, to stop the inventory being too flat.

If you've spent a lot of time reorganising things in many folders, subfolders and even more folders, you should be fine. The main thing is to make sure none of your folders have too many objects on one level. They want our inventories to look more like a tree, and less like a millipede.

[Ceka Cianci]

I have my things put into all the main folders that come default with the inventory..

I had gotten rid of all the ones sitting below..

They better not go adding a bunch of things down there after I clean all dat up!! \o/

hehehehe

 

[Lindal Kidd]

@Alexa Linden:  You know all those women yelling "My body, my choice" in front of the Supreme Court building? You could see a similar crowd outside the Lab in San Francisco if you go ahead with this.

My inventory, my choice! Keep your cotton-pickin' hands off.

[Bree Giffen]

I’m going to transfer everything I have into a prim and take it back into my inventory so I will have only 1 item. Haha! Outsmarted LL.

[Arielle Popstar]

35 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

The point of what they're doing is to solve a technical issue, rather than to make it easier for people to find things. That's why they're warning people, so people can sort their inventories in a way that works for them, and then not need any automatic fix. I expect it will be doing what happened to you: taking the objects and stuffing them in a bunch of new folders, to stop the inventory being too flat.

If you've spent a lot of time reorganising things in many folders, subfolders and even more folders, you should be fine. The main thing is to make sure none of your folders have too many objects on one level. They want our inventories to look more like a tree, and less like a millipede.

I like my millipede and would much rather the Lab spend some time giving us some better inventory management tools like the ability to modify or at the very least prefix the name of an inventory item so I can put all my different body or head configurations in one folder, rather than spread them over multiple folders just to be able to differentiate between them because the No Modify permission doesn't allow me to change or modify an inventory item name. The technical issue comes as a result of them not having done anything to upgrade the the whole inventory system in the first place.

[Lindal Kidd]

I agree with Arielle that the inability to re-name No Mod items in one's inventory is highly annoying. I can get around it by putting said items in folders, and name the folders as I wish, but it's still an unnecessary complication.

[Polenth Yue]

50 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I like my millipede and would much rather the Lab spend some time giving us some better inventory management tools like the ability to modify or at the very least prefix the name of an inventory item so I can put all my different body or head configurations in one folder, rather than spread them over multiple folders just to be able to differentiate between them because the No Modify permission doesn't allow me to change or modify an inventory item name. The technical issue comes as a result of them not having done anything to upgrade the the whole inventory system in the first place.

You've just told me that if you could name no mod items, you'd put them all in the same folder with no folder structure. That means you're saying that adding this feature will encourage you to have a flatter inventory that's more likely to cause technical issues. You just might want to try a different line of argument when requesting that feature.

Many things that might annoy you about the inventory and permissions system aren't really the root cause of this particular issue. This is more about how the system defaults to a structure that eventually causes issues. People often get caught because they didn't move anything from the default locations. The system could be changed to make this less of a problem, but for how it works now, you need to be moving things into folders.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

You've just told me that if you could name no mod items, you'd put them all in the same folder with no folder structure. That means you're saying that adding this feature will encourage you to have a flatter inventory that's more likely to cause technical issues. You just might want to try a different line of argument when requesting that feature.

Many things that might annoy you about the inventory and permissions system aren't really the root cause of this particular issue. This is more about how the system defaults to a structure that eventually causes issues. People often get caught because they didn't move anything from the default locations. The system could be changed to make this less of a problem, but for how it works now, you need to be moving things into folders.

The problem as I understand it is that there are too many folders, not how many items are in each. Currently I have to create and name a folder for each body (as an example) with some particular skin, as most bodies come with a no mod name. If I could append the no mod name with a 3-5 letter alpha numeric prefix, I could put all the bodies in one folder and be able to differentiate between them, without having to wear each in turn until I find the right one. Hence the most obvious and easiest solution is to put each body variation in its own folder. 

The Lab has had 18 or so years to come up with a more efficient system to circumvent the issue so I don't expect they will do anything now but they could probably just as easily have whatever system that does the unpacking, put new items under the proper system folder to avoid this top level flat inventory structure. I mean, why do we have these system folders if the unpacking process isn't putting the new stuff there to begin with or at the very least, give us that option of where to put it on unpacking? 

It really is a small wonder people's inventories get into such a mess when even the most basic of filing structure functions are not included in the viewers. 

[Mollymews]

a suggestion to creatives who provide copy, no-mod items, which many avatar outfit providers do

many of you are quite helpful when you add in tools like Delete Scripts, Resize Object, etc

a further helpful tool is to add in a Rename Item tool. So that we (your customer) can rez the item on the ground and rename your no-mod item. Is particularly helpful when the item comes with a color/texture change HUD. So that after we change the texture we can change the name of the item, to say what the color/texture is. From Kicks to Kicks White, Kicks Blue, etc

is fairly straightforward to do this with llTextBox.  A script example
 

integer channel = 16;
integer handle;

default
{
    touch_start(integer total_number)
    {
        key agent = llDetectedOwner(0);
        if (agent)
        {
            handle = llListen(channel, "", agent, "");             
            llTextBox(agent, llGetObjectName(), channel);
        }
    }
    
    listen(integer channel, string name, key id, string text)
    {
        llListenRemove(handle);
        llSetObjectName(text);   
    }
}

note: when we do this when the item is attached, the name change only applies to the item attached, it doesn't change the inventory name itself. So we have to rez on the ground, change name and take the new-named item (copy) back into inventory. But is ok for us to have to do this

 

what would be even more helpful, and people would really really really love you for

when we rez our Kicks on the ground, and apply a texture with the HUD, then the kicks name just changes for us.  Rez the kicks on the ground, Wear the HUD, pick Blue and the rezzed kicks renamed to: Kicks Blue. We take Copy to Inventory - Kicks Blue. Pick White on the HUD, rezzed kicks renamed to Kicks White. Take Copy to Inventory - Kicks White. And so on

 

[Lindal Kidd]

24 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The problem as I understand it is that there are too many folders, not how many items are in each.

No, or not exactly. The problem is a "flat" inventory structure...several thousand items in one folder, with no branching. A "tree" structure is fine, with folders, sub-folders, sub-sub folders, sub-sub-sub folders and so on, with not too many items (or, I think, folders) in any one level. On the other hand, just throwing all of your clothes into the Clothing folder, with no further organization, would be...not so fine.

Don't ask me why a tree structure loads faster than a straight line, but apparently it does.

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The problem as I understand it is that there are too many folders, not how many items are in each.

It's really when you have too many items within a folder at the same level.  If you have 5000 items directly inside of Folder-A, that is too many -- whether the "item" is a folder or some specific inventory item.  My understanding is that at any given level inside of any folder, you shouldn't have more than 1500 items, give or take.   Once Folder-A reaches 1500 items, create a sub-folder and throw the 1500 in there and then you can continue to add more items to the Folder-A.  That 1500 value came from these forums some time back, but I don't remember where it was specified -- and I think it was a rough guesstimate from the folks that understand how the inventory loading works.

Edited May 20, 2022 by LittleMe Jewell

[Luna Bliss]

[Codex Alpha]

The way I organize is by assets now and such or projects, can't be messed with.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Sid Nagy]

16 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

My inventory, my choice! Keep your cotton-pickin' hands off.

This, exactly this.

I find my way in my inventory almost blindfolded. It took me since 2007 to get it, where it stands now.
It might look like a mess for others, but hey, it is my personally mess than, so no thank you for unwanted changes.
Don't even think you have a better organization for it LL.

[Codex Alpha]

13 hours ago, Mollymews said:

a suggestion to creatives who provide copy, no-mod items, which many avatar outfit providers do

many of you are quite helpful when you add in tools like Delete Scripts, Resize Object, etc

a further helpful tool is to add in a Rename Item tool. So that we (your customer) can rez the item on the ground and rename your no-mod item. Is particularly helpful when the item comes with a color/texture change HUD. So that after we change the texture we can change the name of the item, to say what the color/texture is. From Kicks to Kicks White, Kicks Blue, etc

is fairly straightforward to do this with llTextBox.  A script example
 

integer channel = 16;
integer handle;

default
{
    touch_start(integer total_number)
    {
        key agent = llDetectedOwner(0);
        if (agent)
        {
            handle = llListen(channel, "", agent, "");             
            llTextBox(agent, llGetObjectName(), channel);
        }
    }
    
    listen(integer channel, string name, key id, string text)
    {
        llListenRemove(handle);
        llSetObjectName(text);   
    }
}

note: when we do this when the item is attached, the name change only applies to the item attached, it doesn't change the inventory name itself. So we have to rez on the ground, change name and take the new-named item (copy) back into inventory. But is ok for us to have to do this

 

what would be even more helpful, and people would really really really love you for

when we rez our Kicks on the ground, and apply a texture with the HUD, then the kicks name just changes for us.  Rez the kicks on the ground, Wear the HUD, pick Blue and the rezzed kicks renamed to: Kicks Blue. We take Copy to Inventory - Kicks Blue. Pick White on the HUD, rezzed kicks renamed to Kicks White. Take Copy to Inventory - Kicks White. And so on

 

I would be kind of against allowing people to rename my objects, as they are named appropriately with the edition already, and don't really think this is a very needed feature. Are we going to see campaigns from people now "Don't buy from creators with no mod, no copy, no rename!" now too?

That being said, I could offer such a feature in my products very easily, but I would add my creator name into it, and maybe the original file name in the description field - that way a customer could rename the file - but I don't lose that identifying name that people have found me by product name in the past because they saw it inworld.

Also, I find a lot of stuff inworld and literally because I can right-click any object I'm interested in, find out the product name and then go to the Marketplace and see if I can purchase it.

Having the product title and the creator's name is a very important and beneficial feature in Second Life, and we should kind of not mess with it.

I will also once again make a Sansar reference because unfortunately there, they decided to not include any object name, object creator or even object description - so anything you see inworld there you will never know the source or where it came from. This hurts creators because there is no random, driveby or organic advertising - this does drive sales, so this aspect should never be removed - or in the case of your suggestion we could have that feature but with some caveats that it does not remove important information in the process.

[Kathlen Onyx]

33 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

I would be kind of against allowing people to rename my objects, as they are named appropriately with the edition already, and don't really think this is a very needed feature. Are we going to see campaigns from people now "Don't buy from creators with no mod, no copy, no rename!" now too?

 

Not being able to rename objects is not a feature that I would embrace.  I went to a store and got all the group gifts once and they were all named "outfit" with a 1,2,3 behind it. Imagine if I couldn't rename the object. 

The object still has the creator name in the "creator" field.  What I have noticed though is that creators often don't put their MP link or in-store link IN their profile. Very inconvenient.

[Codex Alpha]

3 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Not being able to rename objects is not a feature that I would embrace.  I went to a store and got all the group gifts once and they were all named "outfit" with a 1,2,3 behind it. Imagine if I couldn't rename the object. 

The object still has the creator name in the "creator" field.  What I have noticed though is that creators often don't put their MP link or in-store link IN their profile. Very inconvenient.

So it begins... lol.

I understand, but..

1) Then don't buy it.

2) Contact the creator to give them feedback that their objects are not named intuitively

3) AND we don't need to give widespread powers just because a few creators can't name good

4) I'm assuming this only applies to No Mod items, as mod items can definitely change names, which I also disagree with because at one time I saw someone rename my item to "Name's Table" just because she changed the texture and name on it

Of course now, I'm being cheeky but.. pretty soon we should just give you this

Edited May 20, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Arielle Popstar]

20 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

So it begins... lol.

I understand, but..

1) Then don't buy it.

2) Contact the creator to give them feedback that their objects are not named intuitively

3) AND we don't need to give widespread powers just because a few creators can't name good

4) I'm assuming this only applies to No Mod items, as mod items can definitely change names, which I also disagree with because at one time I saw someone rename my item to "Name's Table" just because she changed the texture and name on it

Of course now, I'm being cheeky but.. pretty soon we should just give you this

 

No, I been raising awareness of the inconvenience for a while now. Too many times I have bought an item that had no indication in the name of what it was. Sometimes just because the creator maybe thought that by putting .::MyGreatCreation.:: would allow it to be near the top of whatever category it belonged in and often because a non-native english speaker chose to call it something relevant in their own language. Whatever the reason, too often once it goes in inventory it gets lost because I have no idea of what to use for a search term to find it. In a text based inventory, search terms are my only option for finding something, especially if we no longer can have a fairly flat inventory where I can at least scan down the list and hopefully have my memory triggered by coming across its name but after a couple years of constantly buying new items, that gets increasingly remote. I get that you might see it as a way to have some free advertising but why should that trump my right to have an inventory that is easily searchable for the items I am looking for? I did pay money for those items already then I should be entitled to name it something relevant to me to augment my virtual life rather then a name that you may get a sale on.

In response to your points:

1. Often the name of the item does not show when I am buying the product until after I unpack it.

2. Too often creators do not respond, especially if they don't agree with whatever it is I am asking

3. There are often multiple names used for items to the point one almost needs a thesaurus to get all the search terms that a particular product might be listed as.

4. Then at least support or give consumers the ability to prefix your particular named item with something more relevant to them. Win/win right? Especially for all those customers who might not be native english speakers.

The inventory is really a bit of a nightmare for anyone who has been around for a while and accumulated a lot of virtual junk. This is just one idea that could make it a teensy weensy bit more user friendly for those of us who buy your stuff.

 

[Codex Alpha]

At the risk of sounding snarky, this is kind of an expansion on the "Everything should be mod/copy" thingy. Though i dont always agree I have always considered people's points that I may not have considered, and have moved the needle on some products, or have pondered about how I can give such options and be happy with it.

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

. Sometimes just because the creator maybe thought that by putting .::MyGreatCreation.:: would allow it to be near the top of whatever category it belonged in and often because a non-native english speaker chose to call it something relevant in their own language. Whatever the reason, too often once it goes in inventory it gets lost because I have no idea of what to use for a search term to find it.

I can see that. Although I haven't had too many issues so far, there have been some for sure.

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

 I get that you might see it as a way to have some free advertising but why should that trump my right to have an inventory that is easily searchable for the items I am looking for? I did pay money for those items already then I should be entitled to name it something relevant to me to augment my virtual life rather then a name that you may get a sale on.

When I make a comment on something it is not 100% and hardcore, and only offering one side. I'd prefer a system where you could get what you ask for, to be able to rename it however you want, but on the other hand for any person who may be viewing the item to not lose what the product actually is and who made it. I've posted why I think this is important, and not just a self-serving one, as I explained I have purchased OTHER peoples work because I coudl easily look it up - and do that to this day.

I did also pose a solution - I could write a script that would allow it, but it would just place the original name perhaps in the description field. Would that be a happy medium or unacceptable? (Seems like a fair solution to me) rather than say promoting that creators have to change their permissions for an activity that perhaps the majority of players won't need or care about.

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

1. Often the name of the item does not show when I am buying the product until after I unpack it.

 

Wouldn't this fall under LL's responsibility to ensure in the UI that you could see the underlying name of the product?

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

2. Too often creators do not respond, especially if they don't agree with whatever it is I am asking

3. There are often multiple names used for items to the point one almost needs a thesaurus to get all the search terms that a particular product might be listed as.

4. Then at least support or give consumers the ability to prefix your particular named item with something more relevant to them. Win/win right? Especially for all those customers who might not be native english speakers.

The inventory is really a bit of a nightmare for anyone who has been around for a while and accumulated a lot of virtual junk. This is just one idea that could make it a teensy weensy bit more user friendly for those of us who buy your stuff.

 

Sure, thanks for your points being made, they are worthy of pondering on for sure.

I can see it possibly needed for the use cases you presented, and forgive me for some ignorance in some things - as I don't buy a lot of shoes or clothing with huds, and my bias will most likely be from an asset/creation/gadget building position that may make me blind to some issues.

[Love Zhaoying]

On 5/19/2022 at 4:14 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

What exactly are the Lindens planning to do here with this Inventory Organization deal?

Something nefarious. It's a conspiracy!

[Mollymews]

12 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

 I could offer such a feature in my products very easily, but I would add my creator name into it, and maybe the original file name in the description field - that way a customer could rename the file - but I don't lose that identifying name that people have found me by product name in the past because they saw it inworld.

am not sure what your product line is, but maybe my second suggestion, a AutoRename tool, might suit you better

the second probably suit better as well the creators who already provide Delete Scripts, Resize and Tint tools. A AutoRename tool would round out their offering

example from a customer pov: I have a hair which is unrigged, copy and no-modify

has 88 texture changeouts, 15 accessory A texture changeouts, 16 accessory B texture changeouts, 2 styling changeouts, a Resize tool, a Color Tint tool and a Delete Scripts tool

total reachable styling texture combinations: 22,528 (not counting the Tint tool)

a AutoRename tool for this hair would be a blessing for me. At the moment I have to make Inventory folders for each of the combinations that I want to include in My Outfits

is the same with some sneakers I have. Which are rigged, copy, no-modify. 3-part texturing: Main, Sole, Laces. 27 texture changeout for eaxh part. 27 * 27 * 27 = 19,683 combinations. If I show the leg warmers that come with them, then another 27 textures. 19,683 * 27 = 531,441 texture combinations

and as they are no-mod then I have to create a seperate Inventory folder for the combinations that I wear, so that I can include them in a Outfit

then in my Outfit I have bottoms and tops to wear as well. More combinations, more inventory folders (100s and 100s of them). All for the sake of a missing Rename or AutoRename tool

so if any creator reading this, who already provides all these other tools with your copy no-modify products, then please think about a Rename or AutoRename tool as well. I, and am pretty sure lots of other of your customers, will be very happy and pleased with you