New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Rowan Amore]

The only opinion that ultimately matters here is LL's.  We already see which way that is going so debating/arguing about what constitutes gambling is not productive.  

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

The one LL's legal counsel had in mind when they advised that gacha had to be gone.

That's the only definition that matters. Not mine, not yours, not anyone else's.

You beat me to it.

[Finite]

3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

I want a black dress. The dress is priced at $L200 from a conventional vendor. I pay $L200.

I want a black dress from a gacha. Let's say it's a common; the pull price is L$50.

I could get it for L$50. However, I could also end up with no black dress, two ugly dresses, five scarves nobody would even pay the pull price for in resale and be out L$350.

If you want a black dress and one is 200L and the other black dress is part of a gacha that has 24 other dresses in it why would you play the gacha and not just pay 200L for the initial black dress? I play the gacha because I want all the dresses. Not because I want one dress. That just isn't logical.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Finite

[Tari Landar]

5 minutes ago, Velcon Ethaniel said:

a. You didn't read my question, at all. b. you aren't LL so your response is not valid.

 

My question pertains to breedables that are color based - like my xS quails, the the hunny bunnies, or alt life turtles.  Not stuff like Amaretto that have a billion known traits.

 

There is literally NO FEASIBLE WAY to put them in a vendor with a display individually like you are asking, especially since there are MILLIONS OF COLORS. This is why it is a concern for me. Is it legal, or illegal, according to LINDEN LABS  TERMS to put them in a vendor that simply sales "Female quail" or "Male Quail " with no other descriptors?

It's not lying to the customer. They know exactly what  they are getting - a female quail, or a male quail, in my example.

How *detailed* do I have to be about my vendors selling breedable-specific offspring?

How do you think the rest of us who do not use random vendors, have sold them for many years? We use vendors, mostly multi-item vendors, or sell them individually in some cases. LL isn't likely to address you directly, so why not listen to the people that also sell what you sell, to see how it can be done a different way than you currently use? There are not millions of colors, you certainly don't possess millions of colors even if it were possible millions of them existed in sl, exaggerating does not help anyone and certainly won't give you an answer to your query. It's less likely to be taken seriously, actually. 

LL has already answered whether or not random item vendors are allowed. Their answer is that they are not allowed, they are illegal as of September 1, 2021.  They are illegal because the customer does not in fact know what they are getting, they only know one thing about it, gender. No one said anything about lying, LL has stated customers need to know exactly what they are buying, you are not fulfilling that when you use a random vendor.

 

[Chris Corvinus]

54 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Nightmare?

I'm one of the most technically incompetent people you'll ever meet. But ...

It takes me 5 minutes to push a new painting to my gallery marketplace store, create the full listing, and click the "make it live" button. 5 minutes. I said before, if I can do it, anyone can.

Thats nice. Multiply that 5 mins times 100 or more. Your one single item is laughable against creators who now need to upload HUNDREDS of gacha fatpacks (assuming they do fatpacks).

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Finite said:

If you want a black dress and one is 200L and the other black dress is part of a gacha that has 24 other dresses in it why would you play the gacha and not just pay 200L for the initial black dress? I play the gacha because I want all the dresses. Not because I want one dress. That just isn't logical.

But you know that's not how most people play.  Come on.

[Silent Mistwalker]

16 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

It is certainly not the way I would like to do business either.

But most of the gacha merchants are in it to make maxed out profits on only a few items, mainly by exploiting addictions\thrills and rareness of some items.
And I was thinking along their lines of doing business in an attempt to try and find a solution for their abrupt problem now addictions and thrills are ruled out in the future.

I never even considered to sell through gachas.

My personal concept is totally simple: I make things that I fancy making. If it turns out it could be useful for others too, then it hits the marketplace for what I consider a reasonable price.
That's all. No in world store, no fatpacks, no limited time or number sales, no events, no advertisement other than my sig line here on the forums.
About 90% of what I make or start to make ends up in the dust bin. I have no pressure at all to make something for a fair or an event. I don't care if I make tier or some beer money or nothing at all.
SL is a hobby now and hobbies can cost money at times.
I like this approach far better then when I tried to expand as much as possible in the years 2007-2011.
Now I have always time for another cup of coffee.

 

Hey. You better stuff that teddy bear back out of sight. Someone might spot him. lol

☕🥧

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Chris Nova said:

Thats nice. Multiply that 5 mins times 100 or more. Your one single item is laughable against creators who now need to upload HUNDREDS of gacha fatpacks (assuming they do fatpacks).

Well, that will be what they have to do or make vendors or pack up and leave.  No one has to like it.  Yep, a ton of work for some.  Do it or don't.  Your choice.

[Finite]

2 minutes ago, Chris Nova said:

Thats nice. Multiply that 5 mins times 100 or more. Your one single item is laughable against creators who now need to upload HUNDREDS of gacha fatpacks (assuming they do fatpacks).

That doesn't even factor in the hours, days or even weeks to create the mesh before even getting to the uploading part.

[Kathlen Onyx]

13 minutes ago, Finite said:

Sorry I have already responded to a similar question. Again I do not agree with your pov. Can't you all just agree to disagree? Or am I required to keep repeating myself? That being said I'm kind of loving the SMH responses. So please continue. It reminds me of this three-headed bobblehead doll I once won at a carnival with raffle tickets I paid money for.

You are only repeating yourself because you choose to. Yes, I am entitled to respond to your response to a post. It is called a discussion.

[Silent Mistwalker]

15 minutes ago, Velcon Ethaniel said:

a. You didn't read my question, at all. b. you aren't LL so your response is not valid.

 

My question pertains to breedables that are color based - like my xS quails, the the hunny bunnies, or alt life turtles.  Not stuff like Amaretto that have a billion known traits.

 

There is literally NO FEASIBLE WAY to put them in a vendor with a display individually like you are asking, especially since there are MILLIONS OF COLORS. This is why it is a concern for me. Is it legal, or illegal, according to LINDEN LABS  TERMS to put them in a vendor that simply sales "Female quail" or "Male Quail " with no other descriptors?

It's not lying to the customer. They know exactly what  they are getting - a female quail, or a male quail, in my example.

How *detailed* do I have to be about my vendors selling breedable-specific offspring?

This is a question for linden labs to answer. I'm not looking for speculation from anyone else.

Quote

Q:  How are breedables impacted by this policy change?

A:  This current policy change and deadline does not apply to breedables or other life simulation products.  At the present we are working with external counsel on the subject of breedables.  If any action is required we will make a separate announcement and have a separate timeline associated with it. 

 

[Arielle Popstar]

24 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

Disagreeing with the rules is your right. Non-compliance with them is not. Nor do LL have any obligation to heed your disagreement if it contradicts the advice of their counsel - in fact it is quite the reverse, if they are advised by their legal counsel that a rule must prohibit an activity they are required to ignore any objections from any of us and implement the rule. And that, said the cat in the hat, is THAT.

I am not suggesting non compliance David. I am not a Gacha creator nor even a consumer of such though I have been tempted. The point I see for this thread is in the looking for clarification which you might have noticed has been ongoing from the Lab as people have asked questions about the limits of the new rule. Patch has even pointed out that the legal counsel has been consulted with since this announcement for even greater clarity about specific scenarios. Acting like it is some cut and dried issue is a bit disingenuous as even the high priced legal reps are having to look deeper into it for clarification.

[Finite]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

But you know that's not how most people play.  Come on.

I honestly don't know. I go by how I play and the people I associate with play. I don't assume how others play as it's not high on my agenda to ponder such things.

[Velcon Ethaniel]

11 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

How do you think the rest of us who do not use random vendors, have sold them for many years? We use vendors, mostly multi-item vendors, or sell them individually in some cases. LL isn't likely to address you directly, so why not listen to the people that also sell what you sell, to see how it can be done a different way than you currently use? There are not millions of colors, you certainly don't possess millions of colors even if it were possible millions of them existed in sl, exaggerating does not help anyone and certainly won't give you an answer to your query. It's less likely to be taken seriously, actually. 

LL has already answered whether or not random item vendors are allowed. Their answer is that they are not allowed, they are illegal as of September 1, 2021.  They are illegal because the customer does not in fact know what they are getting, they only know one thing about it, gender. No one said anything about lying, LL has stated customers need to know exactly what they are buying, you are not fulfilling that when you use a random vendor.

 

You still aren't reading my question. You don't sell what I sell, very few people breed the quails, turtles, or  HB. What I'm referencing are RGB Value based breedables with literally no feasible way to list every single one and it's color due to the fact that there are literally thousands, if not millions, of possible colors. There is no exaggeration there because these breedables that I am referencing are RGB based.

SEE: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=how+many+colors+are+there+in+the+world

"Most researchers are pretty satisfied with quantifying the full color list at 10 million because this takes into account the maximum number of configurations based on the human eye's ability to perceive 1,000 shades of light, 100 levels of red-green shades and 100 levels of yellow-blue shades."

In any case, Linden labs advised me to post my question here because they said the thread is being monitored so YES I expect an answer from LINDEN LABS directly pertaining to this question, which will probably come in the form of a public FAQ like they posted this morning. All other answers are just PURE speculation. You are not linden labs, you do not make the rules, You cannot say for certain what is or isn't allowed.

HOW DETAILED does my vendor have to be in order to be considered okay by linden labs legal team?

 

FOR LINDEN LABS TO ANSWER:

Can I simply put female quail and male quail, or do I have to specify the exact RGB value for every breedable in the vendor?

and 7seas: Why is it that you are requiring the caught fish to be no transfer ?  Anyone who buys a caught fish would know exactly what they are buying so I would like to understand the reason and justification behind this decision pertaining to 7seas.

Additionally will the decision about 7seas fish being non-xferable be transferred to other breedables? Basically, is linden labs planning on making all breedable offspring non transferable?

 

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Velcon Ethaniel

[Chris Corvinus]

Just now, Finite said:

That doesn't even factor in the hours, days or even weeks to create the mesh before even getting to the uploading part.

I would assume since they already have the files for the mesh, all they have to do is upload. Still mad time consuming having to do all that work though. Some places really do have hundreds of gachas. I feel bad for Bee Designs.

[Finite]

2 minutes ago, Chris Nova said:

I would assume since they already have the files for the mesh, all they have to do is upload. Still mad time consuming having to do all that work though. Some places really do have hundreds of gachas. I feel bad for Bee Designs.

Hehe yes. I didn't  consider pre-made or 3rd party mesh. I was thinking original content creations. But even 3rd party mesh normally requires some form of conversion since they aren't usually in DAE format and it is not a simple right-click and save-as solution.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Finite

[Theresa Tennyson]

10 minutes ago, Finite said:

If you want a black dress and one is 200L and the other black dress is part of a gacha that has 24 other dresses in it why would you play the gacha and not just pay 200L for the initial black dress? I play the gacha because I want all the dresses. Not because I want one dress. That just isn't logical.

Indeed, gambling on an outcome seldom is.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I am not suggesting non compliance David. I am not a Gacha creator nor even a consumer of such though I have been tempted. The point I see for this thread is in the looking for clarification which you might have noticed has been ongoing from the Lab as people have asked questions about the limits of the new rule. Patch has even pointed out that the legal counsel has been consulted with since this announcement for even greater clarity about specific scenarios. Acting like it is some cut and dried issue is a bit disingenuous as even the high priced legal reps are having to look deeper into it for clarification.

My apologies - in that paragraph "your"/"you" was generic, not specific to you as the person who prompted me to start writing and  whose words I quoted for that reason. I could probably have worded it better.

[ARD1994]

A lot of people talk about addiction with gacha machines saying is an addiction ect ect.....but when you spend all your salary for buy lindens and wear your avatar into the regular events/shops where you choose what you buy is an addiction too? So why then LL dont put a limit of lindens that you can buy monthly??? Because Linden don t care about your addictions......so please stop say that gacha is addiction because for what i see all SL is an addiction just we have to be honest and don t say that who use to play gacha are addicted when there is people who don t even buy bread because they have to go to the last event for buy clothes/hair/shoes, gachas Was another way to do business like the other just Was a plus that you can resell what you don t like and like this can give the chance to earn some linden to who don t know how to use 3D software....i hope that someone will find some way to continue this business in other ways at least everybody will be happy and for who don t like nobody force people to do or to buy Nothing....love ya all

Edited August 4, 2021 by ARD1994

[Chris Corvinus]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Well, that will be what they have to do or make vendors or pack up and leave.  No one has to like it.  Yep, a ton of work for some.  Do it or don't.  Your choice.

Right but my response was more toward someone who figured if she could upload in 5 mins, anyone could. Some people don't understand that a lot of stores have more than one gacha. You ever go to the Bee Designs mainstore? Half that place is covered in gachas.

[Maryanne Solo]

Having to upload a gazillion colours of the same item shows limited knowledge of 3d & SL item creation. Or could it be greed? 🤔 

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Finite said:

I honestly don't know. I go by how I play and the people I associate with play. I don't assume how others play as it's not high on my agenda to ponder such things.

All you'd have to do is look on the MP.  Pick a few gacha resellers.  How many of the same items do they have for sale?  How much do you think, on average, was pumped in to get the one color most people want?  I rarely see folks running around in pale lime green or lavender unless they're bridesmaids in a wedding.  They pump in money because....the next one will be.the rare....the next roll of.the dice....the next hand of poker....the next spin of.the wheel.  

But I get it.  YOU don't have a gambling problem so don't see it as gambling.

[Chris Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, Finite said:

Hehe yes. I didn't  consider pre-made or 3rd party mesh. I was thinking original content creations. But even 3rd party mesh normally requires some form of conversion since they aren't usually in DAE format and it is not a simple right-click and save-as solution.

Oh, I wouldn't know. I'm not a creator. I just assumed creators had saved files of their mesh on their computers haha.

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

That is the selling trick, to NOT do that.

Repackage as requested and sell for Fatpack price X,000 L$ minus L$10   

[Da5id Weatherwax]

Just now, Chris Nova said:

Right but my response was more toward someone who figured if she could upload in 5 mins, anyone could. Some people don't understand that a lot of stores have more than one gacha. You ever go to the Bee Designs mainstore? Half that place is covered in gachas.

The items are already uploaded to be sold in the gacha are they not? All that remains is inventory shuffling - heck the whole shebang can go into a single networked multi-item vendor if you really want to do it in minimum time and with a truly sucky shopping experience for your customers.