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Someone mentioned gachas having only been around for 8 years so for 10 yrs prior, creators sold their items and made a profit or not.  Mesh came along and quite a few creators disappeared because they couldn't adapt.  That wasn't even a legal issue.  It was a progress issue and one most of us are happy about.  We love our mesh.  Some creators adapted extremely well and are at the top of their game.  This is how life works.  Things progress, whether through technology or in the case of gachas, through real world laws.  It happened with gambling and SL survived.  

Creators will either adapt or they won't.  Some won't and that's on them and not on LL.  There is no reason, IMO, to even try to skirt around the law.   Coming up with questionable ideas that then LL has to take valuable time to research.  It boggles the mind.

 

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2 minutes ago, TessaPaige Jupiter said:

 I know of one designer who is going out of business and closing shop and there might be more making those announcements soon too. Farewell ye ole’ virtual machine Tessa is gonna miss you.

I just saw a notice in a group in world saying they were closing shop due to gatcha's getting the heave ho and some in the group said just put up vendors and such. She said heck no and this is it for me in SL.

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1 minute ago, Finite said:

I must have been really lucky then only finding the 1% of vendors who do this sort of thing on the side for the enjoyment of it and it's not really a main source of their personal income or anything. I am sure there are greedy vendors out there but most of the ones I've felt were greedy don't do GACHA. 99% really?

Many did it for the greed, yes.  I wouldn't say 99%, but quite a few.  And it became blatantly obvious when they'd stop creating normal product to sell, and started to Gacha exclusive items.  Nothing like going to an event, to see over two dozen vendors that used to create awesome things that people would happily buy, to just release their items as a Gacha only.

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18 minutes ago, Deathly Fright said:

no... money...needs...to..be...spent...to...get...the...rare....just...luck

and Silent talked about my reading comprehension

Luck is chance and is also random.

oops

It just fell back into being a gacha type.

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1 minute ago, Viche Hexem said:

IDK why they brought up linden homes lol, but it's funny to see it there, maybe I missed something.

One of those completely irrelevant, thread-cluttering comparisons was apparently someone bringing up that obtaining a Linden Home was 'gambling' because you don't know where you're going to end up.

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10 minutes ago, TessaPaige Jupiter said:

Hi my Avatar is Tessa and she is a Gacha Addict who turned that addiction into a decent SL business that funded her need to pull and paid her rent on her little island home and stores. Prior to her introduction into Gachas back in January 2020 she loved to decorate and create public spaces for people to enjoy (for free) but felt limited by the designers she was able to find through SL search. Gacha events introduced her to a whole slew of designers she never heard of before. The shiny new things they stuffed inside the machines piqued her interest in finding more designers and sampling their wares. She is saddened by the news that she will no longer be able to click the virtual machines again to get a prize. That being said, we need to be a little more sensitive to the designers whose businesses were primarily Gachas. They will be losing a huge revenue stream. Whether you love or hate Gachas this is going to be a big hurdle for people in the Gacha community to jump. I know of one designer who is going out of business and closing shop and there might be more making those announcements soon too. Farewell ye ole’ virtual machine Tessa is gonna miss you.

There are many merchants who had to adapt over the years.
The prim - mesh change put more than some out of business
When LL started to give out linden homes to premiums, home rental firms got dents and bruises
When slot machines got banned the casino's took a big hit.
I know the feeling, I've been there, because of the prim mesh change. I closed shop and took a longer break from SL.
Now I live another life in SL.
It is adapt or die. Just like in RL when things change.

Edited by Sid Nagy
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1 minute ago, Skell Dagger said:

One of those completely irrelevant, thread-cluttering comparisons was apparently someone bringing up that obtaining a Linden Home was 'gambling' because you don't know where you're going to end up.

Oh, I'm not going to deride people because they ask weird questions but it's funny that it ended up being brought up at all. For real when people are exploring all possibilities and bringing up every imaginable idea I wouldn't be so critical of them, the anguish of thread cluttering is the pain of having to just scroll past it, the benefit is that maybe they'll come up with something completely out of left field nobody has thought of yet.

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3 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

I just saw a notice in a group in world saying they were closing shop due to gatcha's getting the heave ho and some in the group said just put up vendors and such. She said heck no and this is it for me in SL.

If they're that mad that Gacha is going that they're going to torpedo their entire store, then honestly they're not thinking properly.

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4 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

I just saw a notice in a group in world saying they were closing shop due to gatcha's getting the heave ho and some in the group said just put up vendors and such. She said heck no and this is it for me in SL.

That sounds like, "I'm going to take all my toys and go home since I can't have my way."   I honestly can't see the motivation behind leaving SL because of it. 

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Just now, Viche Hexem said:

Maybe it is, maybe that'll apply to the super unfair fishing machine I thought up too, but it's not been directly addressed and this is the thread in which we find loopholes like that and aknowledge them. I think conveyors will remain legal but it's less about what I think and more about the possibilities of what people might do.

Viche, I'm sorry, but I will have to "persevere that and focus on the constructive posts" solely to you. at least you get what is happening and why it's important. finding things that people will try and proposing them here in a safe environment that LL can also explore and get legal council on.

I know this next bit will invite people to make fun of me...

you all have to forgive me for worrying that many makers will just roll up shop and leave instead of going back to the old ways. hopefully it doesn't and maybe even new makers come in, but I don't see that happening personally. especially with the cost, in time and money, to start being a creator that can actually sell things that people want. I see events with less and less stands over the past year or so, even larger events that used to be full of well made things, for example.

SL has felt to me less vibrant and more empty recently, my long friends list is looking less and less active. people logging in with feeling of being required instead of excited. granted, this might just be the people I know, but SL feels like it's dying. I'm not saying this will kill it and yes, it will go on, the sky prim is not falling. but I see SL dying slowly and this is just the next infection that pushes it along it's mortal coil.

this is why trying to find a way to maybe a way that creators can still make the amounts they were making with gatchas, as well as resellers is so important to me.

/me sighs, "regardless, see you all inworld maybe." 🙋‍♀️

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1 minute ago, Komarimono said:

Many did it for the greed, yes.  I wouldn't say 99%, but quite a few.  And it became blatantly obvious when they'd stop creating normal product to sell, and started to Gacha exclusive items.  Nothing like going to an event, to see over two dozen vendors that used to create awesome things that people would happily buy, to just release their items as a Gacha only.

They likely did it because they realized there was  a market of people who enjoy this sort of shopping. When there is an event or string of events I want to attend coming up I buy a finite (no pun intended) amount of lindens that I intend to spend on stuff. Whether it's gatcha or not, if I like the items I'm buying it with the money I had already determined I was going to spend at these events. If I see a gacha that only has 1 or 2 things out of 25 that i like, I walk way. Much like when I see an outfit that has maybe 1 or 3 versions I like but don't like the fatpack price and don't want multiple folders of the same outfit. I just walk away. To me it's the same. I generally pay in the end for a gacha set around the same of what others pay for outfits.

I've been burned twice from gacha vendors out of the many I've played. I just don't go to them anymore. If someone happened to play those gachas and that's their only experience with it then I can understand their negative point of view. But I can promise those are not the majority of gacha vendors. And certainly not 99% of them.

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2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

That sounds like, "I'm going to take all my toys and go home since I can't have my way."   I honestly can't see the motivation behind leaving SL because of it. 

I don't thing she was thinking outside the box.  Someone in the group mentioned that her cheapest gatcha was $350. Most other shops were like $L5 and up. She was in it for the $$.

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I know a lot of you aren't gamers, so you wouldn't know about the way that AAA game companies and mobile publishers were doing thier best to monetize as much as they could, to the point that kids were draining thier parents' bank accounts for that one thing they wanted. When something gets so bad that governments actually take heed, you know it's a problem.

Thing is, regulatory agencies are blunt, unsubtle things that don't care about all that goalpost-shifting and whataboutism that's plagued this thread, they won't care that was the userbase that's doing the gacha thing. If it walks like a lootbox, quacks like a lootbox, then as far at the government's concerned, it's a loot box. LL's just covering thier rears here.

Myself, I won't miss gachas. I've seen how bad they can get, such as outfits being broken up into separate bits with the main part being a rare. That is, except for a certain kind of avatar sold via voucher that practically has a subculture. I'm talking about Nutbusterz, and I'm scared because I haven't heard hide nor hair of it's future

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2 hours ago, CelestineDemetria said:

What I'm getting at is your playing or paying money to get a Different Item then the previously bought Item as you- put it or say in the Post-. Is that not Randomization? IF each LE pack is a bit different unknowingly to you or not ( is that not like a gacha, if each item coming out is seemingly different from the previous?, but for the same payment)  Different items being sent to different subscribers on a chance basis is not allowed. - Is that Quote from patch Linden not the same as what you described. That's what I have been trying to get at. 

Traits that a LE animal can possibly pass on to offspring down the line is irrelevant to the initial purchase, which is where this entire topic is focused, initial purchases.  No, the traits you cannot know the LE has are not like a gacha, they are simply something you can do with that item you are buying once you have it. 

Like I said, if the LE items are being sold from the creator as a starter pack, with unknown initial traits (don't know if you're getting a green or brown, for example), they would fall under the category of things that need to change. But if all LE, dragons for example, are pretty purple swirl with pretty blue eyes, a curly tail and floppy ears, then every single person is getting the same initial dragon. The breeding, or traits that can be brought out through breeding, is secondary, always. Initial traits-what you can see, is not the same as secondary (hidden) traits. So, it wouldn't fall under the same umbrella, not for this particular dicussion's sake anyway.

2 hours ago, CelestineDemetria said:

Then you hope that new desired thing pops out. (hidden trait) unknown item in some of the packs or animals.(money maker) (intrinsic monetary value placed on that item of Rarity- if not all packs contain them)- like you said if each pack is unknowingly different.

Most breeders don't breed to just keep the Animal.

Breeding is always secondary, always. No one HAS to breed these animals. That they choose to, is a separate thing from the initial purchase. Yes, I know most breeders, most buyers, primarily buy breedables to breed them. That doesn't change what the initial purchase is, or that this is where the problem arises. You must know the actual product you are getting when you buy. Unless you're buying a starter pack, you know this information when you buy most breedables. That you do not know what else they are capable of through a secondary game (breeding) is irrelevant, here. 

2 hours ago, CelestineDemetria said:

It is Transferable so then you can take it and sell it. You take the initial gamble of first buying (getting a different item then the previous item), Another gamble Breeding, to get that hidden thing (diff trait) . To then sell it on for more or less. So you are gambling that you will receive that item, and make more or less money off the Randomization of the animals being sold as you stated- if everyone is a bit diff. You are not knowing/getting what exactly what you pay for. (if those things are hidden- you don't know if you got the same or different then item previously)

You're taking the word gamble here a little too seriously, or at least not applying it correctly. Gachas are not only being targeted simply because they are a gambling mechanism, it's more complicated than that. You take a gamble when you log in to sl at all that everything will be as it should. Shall we include logging in to sl as part of this? No, because the simple fact that it's a gamble, in some sense of the word, doesn't make it a gacha, lol (and yes I realize that's a silly comparison, but it's actually applicable when trying to decipher where words apply and where they don't).

I think I already made it clear about LE starter items and why there can be no randomness to exactly what you see, what you get when you buy. The breeding, again, is secondary and not actually part of the initial purchase. You don't have to breed to own those LE animals. I do actually know a lot of people that just like buying them to have them, some breed, some don't, some really just like owning them. But my anecdotal evidence is rather irrelevant too, it doesn't change the fact that secondary breeding...ie, what you can do with your animal once you buy what you see before you, doesn't fall under a gacha as it's been presented to us, so far. Could LL change their minds on this? I suppose. I'm not sure how they'd apply it, it would take some serious acrobatics. I could, however, see them changing how starters are sold/offered, because that makes PERFECT sense and starters are the biggest issue when it comes to breedables and how this whole gacha policy applies (and random vendors, but I think we're both clear that those are nixed no matter what, as they should be, they're random, lol)

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There are a lot of creators who don't do gachas at all.

 

Apple Fall retired all of theirs and stopped doing gachas and I don't think it's hurt their business.

 

DRD said in their group announcement they had already decided not to do more gachas going forward.

Gachas are only one way to sell.  It's popular and some people may decided not to use another format but LL doesn't have much of a choice in this.

 

I guess other than making SL unavailable to people who live in places where lootboxes are illegal but that doesn't seem to be a smart decision. 

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22 minutes ago, Deathly Fright said:

you all have to forgive me for worrying that many makers will just roll up shop and leave instead of going back to the old ways

I'm a creator and have been in SL for many many years. I've seen many situations like this. Honestly, it's still venting time for many creators who maybe panic before really giving it some considerable thought about how to work out this new twist.

What does concern me is merchants who might buy into some of these less than legal ideas to get around the ban, and then having creators spending valuable time and energy trying to finagle around it rather than just hitting it head on and moving into a new constructive path.

Unfortunately for those who made business out of reselling gachas the writing is on the wall. I really don't see an alternative for them. Creators can find ways to sell their products. But resellers won't have product now. Maybe time to learn blender. :) 

Edited by Blush Bravin
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14 minutes ago, Deathly Fright said:

\you all have to forgive me for worrying that many makers will just roll up shop and leave instead of going back to the old ways. hopefully it doesn't and maybe even new makers come in, but I don't see that happening personally. especially with the cost, in time and money, to start being a creator that can actually sell things that people want. I see events with less and less stands over the past year or so, even larger events that used to be full of well made things, for example.

I understand that frustration, but you need to look at both Real life and Second Life circumstances. The COVID-19 pandemic has caused people to lose their homes, their real life jobs, and even lose their lives. I wouldn't doubt for a second if one creator from SL has lost their life to it, if not more. While yes, many people have been at home during the pandemic, It doesn't help that people have been having to focus on real life for many reasons. This is the primary reason why you probably have been seeing less and less content in recent times.

 

14 minutes ago, Deathly Fright said:

SL has felt to me less vibrant and more empty recently, my long friends list is looking less and less active. people logging in with feeling of being required instead of excited. granted, this might just be the people I know, but SL feels like it's dying. I'm not saying this will kill it and yes, it will go on, the sky prim is not falling. but I see SL dying slowly and this is just the next infection that pushes it along it's mortal coil.

The reason for that is undoubtedly because of the loosening of restrictions. I have seen some friends of mine not on as often because of this and related reasons as well.

Many people have said that Second Life is dying for years. Our concurrent user count up until the COVID-19 pandemic started was relatively stable for about 2-4 years. Our Economy had a GDP of around 800 Million USD (or was it 180 Million? I can't remember which it was sadly) as late as 2018. We will inevitably take a hit from this. but this isn't ours, and it isn't the Lindens' Fault. If you want to point the blame at anyone for pressure on Gacha, it is the mobile and AAA games industry for pushing lootboxes like they have been, raising the ire of many groups of people.

As someone who did a small amount of reselling on the side, hear me when I say this - I understand yours, and others concerns when you say you're worried or frustrated - I know I've come off as agitated and annoyed, but I genuinely sympathize with your fears. But this is for the best, so that we can ensure that Second Life doesn't die as a result of legal non-compliance when these laws become enacted in more countries.

The Lindens as of late have been making a genuine attempt, within reason, to try and improve Second Life. It has been rough to some extent, but with change, that is to be expected. Trust me and others when I say that the end of Gacha will not be the end of Second Life, and that it will not lead down that path.

Edited by Rathgrith027
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I just bought some gacha :D and came across this vendor which should be ok regarding the rule that you need to know what you are paying for.
And I like it much better than the usual ones because I know I won´t buy a double next.

ShinyShabby.jpg

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1 minute ago, Maymay Matova said:

I just bought some gacha :D and came across this vendor which should be ok regarding the rule that you need to know what you are paying for.
And I like it much better than the usual ones because I know I won´t buy a double next.

ShinyShabby.jpg

Yes, the vendor themselves posted here.  No it does not bypass the rule.  That's a Conveyor setup, meaning you still have to buy to progress it to the next item.  Even if you knew what item was next, or how many purchases you would have to make, still a Gacha.

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25 minutes ago, Deathly Fright said:

Viche, I'm sorry, but I will have to "persevere that and focus on the constructive posts" solely to you. at least you get what is happening and why it's important. finding things that people will try and proposing them here in a safe environment that LL can also explore and get legal council on.

I know this next bit will invite people to make fun of me...

you all have to forgive me for worrying that many makers will just roll up shop and leave instead of going back to the old ways. hopefully it doesn't and maybe even new makers come in, but I don't see that happening personally. especially with the cost, in time and money, to start being a creator that can actually sell things that people want. I see events with less and less stands over the past year or so, even larger events that used to be full of well made things, for example.

SL has felt to me less vibrant and more empty recently, my long friends list is looking less and less active. people logging in with feeling of being required instead of excited. granted, this might just be the people I know, but SL feels like it's dying. I'm not saying this will kill it and yes, it will go on, the sky prim is not falling. but I see SL dying slowly and this is just the next infection that pushes it along it's mortal coil.

this is why trying to find a way to maybe a way that creators can still make the amounts they were making with gatchas, as well as resellers is so important to me.

/me sighs, "regardless, see you all inworld maybe." 🙋‍♀️

More people than you and I see that importance I think, it's just that even among those people (myself included) we can get defensive of our perspectives and take ourselves a tad too seriously. Might as well be an innate rule of online forum discussion that everyone is always just a little angry, especially the people who say they aren't angry to prove to everyone how especially level headed they are, myself included again I guess.

As for worrying that some new development in SL will ruin everything in some regard: I hate to come across as condecending but first time? When I joined SL I was told by people it was dying, plenty of communities I'd been in had wilted away to a shadow of their former selves, a good chunk of the marketplace is just game rips and stuff completely ruining the part of the market I'm actually involved in, sims I used to go to have since died as steadily shrinking subcommunities I'm in get smaller by the day. But SL's been dying ever since I first joined it, it'll be dying for years to come, and really the dying part is relative to what communities you're even in and what stuff you're interested in. In short: That's SL buddy!

Again, sorry if that last part sound condecending, I don't mean to chide you for being a sweet summer child or whatever, I'm just saying don't worry about it so much because that's just kind of how it's always been for me and worrying won't do any good.

Edited by Viche Hexem
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27 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

I just saw a notice in a group in world saying they were closing shop due to gatcha's getting the heave ho and some in the group said just put up vendors and such. She said heck no and this is it for me in SL.

That’s probably because of the way vendors and the marketplace are structured. LL made it a living nightmare to upload to the marketplace and it hasn’t been updated since. So those creators who made gachas but didn’t have a marketplace because it was too time consuming are probably just going to close. Same with using vendors, it’s very time consuming and asking them to take the time to put all their gachas into vendors? Yikes.

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1 minute ago, Komarimono said:

Yes, the vendor themselves posted here.  No it does not bypass the rule.  That's a Conveyor setup, meaning you still have to buy to progress it to the next item.  Even if you knew what item was next, or how many purchases you would have to make, still a Gacha.

as far as i know, LL didn't say anything about that idea just yet, so how you know it does not bypass the rule, the rule was, people need to know what they buying, and that vendor does just that, telling people what they are paying for, but again, can we just wait for LL FAQ to update on this? instead giving opinions what we think about it?

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4 minutes ago, Maymay Matova said:

I just bought some gacha :D and came across this vendor which should be ok regarding the rule that you need to know what you are paying for.
And I like it much better than the usual ones because I know I won´t buy a double next.

ShinyShabby.jpg

Only way this works is if it has a button to advance the choices without paying to advance through the conveyer. Of course then it's just a regular multi item vendor and not a gacha at all.

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Just now, Komarimono said:

Yes, the vendor themselves posted here.  No it does not bypass the rule.  That's a Conveyor setup, meaning you still have to buy to progress it to the next item.  Even if you knew what item was next, or how many purchases you would have to make, still a Gacha.

Aww, too bad. Or well, not so bad. In fact I would rather decide which ones to buy first. I want them all and I want them now. lol

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6 minutes ago, Maymay Matova said:

I just bought some gacha :D and came across this vendor which should be ok regarding the rule that you need to know what you are paying for.
And I like it much better than the usual ones because I know I won´t buy a double next.

ShinyShabby.jpg

but if you do want that next item, you still have to pay for the one you don't want.  This vendor type system is already being discussed here and with LL.

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