Why are DEMOs ungiftable and no-transfer?

[Qie Niangao]

Suppose I see a product and thank it might be just perfect for an alt or an offline friend, but they'd need to try the demo first. How do I get a copy of the demo to them? My own copy of the demo is virtually never transferable, and the demo vendor almost never offers a Gift option.

Maybe it's a crowded shopping event and they aren't Premium so they can't get in themselves, even if I'm motivated to IM them an object link* to the vendor.

It's not that these alts and friends suffer (at least not that they'll ever know) but how is this in the best interest of the merchant to make it so crazy difficult to share a demo of their product?

This even applies in merchants' main stores, so I doubt this would be a restriction imposed by event venues (is it)?

I don't think this is anything new; I've wondered about it for years and only just now thought to ask.

_____________
*Object links—geeky tangent—can be very handy but many users don't seem to know about them. They're a kind of viewer text link produced in the format secondlife:///app/objectim/<objectUUID>/… that from outside the region should offer an option to teleport to the object location (and from inside the region, potentially several other options).

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

The closest to your requirement is finding the demo on the marketplace and buying it as a gift for the alt/friend/random person to be surprised.

 

[Rowan Amore]

12 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

The closest to your requirement is finding the demo on the marketplace and buying it as a gift for the alt/friend/random person to be surprised.

 

Are you able to gift 0L demos on the MP?  I haven't tried in awhile but it used to be that you couldn't.

ETA.  There is no add to cart as a gift option for 0L demos.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[Sid Nagy]

And it should not be for freebies either.
Trolls could bombard your account with freebies and demo's just for the 'fun' of it.

BTW Nice new avatar picture Rowan.

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Sid Nagy said:

And it should not be for freebies either.
Trolls could bombard your account with freebies and demo's just for the 'fun' of it.

BTW Nice new avatar picture Rowan.

I'd never thought of that reasoning.  I guess my alt will just have to get her own dang demos.

And thank you kindly.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

2 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

ETA.  There is no add to cart as a gift option for 0L demos.

OK, I don't think I go for free stuff much so I've not realised that side of it before.

[Mollymews]

i am with Qie

from a marketing pov (to get more product into the hands of customers) then it makes sense to set demo products permissions: copy + transfer

[Stephanie Misfit]

3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Are you able to gift 0L demos on the MP?  I haven't tried in awhile but it used to be that you couldn't.

ETA.  There is no add to cart as a gift option for 0L demos.

That's why I really don't mind if merchants charge 1L for a demo, I've used this before to send demos to alts when I can't be bothered switching accounts on the marketplace. I also prefer useful freebies on the marketplace to be giftable by costing 1L, then I can send them to all my alts at once rather than log in and out to buy a copy for everyone. I get that some people have very few or even no lindens though.

[Qie Niangao]

3 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

And it should not be for freebies either.
Trolls could bombard your account with freebies and demo's just for the 'fun' of it.

BTW Nice new avatar picture Rowan.

Yeah, I'm not particularly interested in Marketplace demos; for that it's easy enough to just send a URL by IM. The problem is in-world demos, particularly at events.

Sure it would be theoretically possible for a troll to spam somebody even with those in-world demos, too, but surely that would be infinitely easier to do with plywood boxes, no? And yet we're allowed to create them FOR FREE and share them at will.

[BelindaN]

The problem I've found at shopping events is that the gift function is often unreliable unless my alt is already in world. So it then takes a bit of time doing a redelivery later. 

So I end up bringing them over to the event. That's not always so easy. Then giving them the money, so they can buy the item.

It can get long winded.

Having said that, I've started to go to more shopping events, even though I don't buy much stuff there. Just the odd must have.

[Sid Nagy]

13 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yeah, I'm not particularly interested in Marketplace demos; for that it's easy enough to just send a URL by IM. The problem is in-world demos, particularly at events.

Sure it would be theoretically possible for a troll to spam somebody even with those in-world demos, too, but surely that would be infinitely easier to do with plywood boxes, no? And yet we're allowed to create them FOR FREE and share them at will.

True, but it takes a lot more effort to do so, and there is a chance you get muted within 2 or 3 prim deliveries.
Over the marketplace one can get hundreds of people bombarded with hundreds of items, before one gets muted or suspended.

[Bree Giffen]

Making demos transferrable is a good idea. I've been to a few events where I find something that's not my style but would work with an alt.

Making demos not transferrable is just one of many issues with demos. Some creators set their demos with a timer that makes them disappear while you are wearing and deciding if you want to buy. Some put obnoxious attachments around the demo that it is difficult to look at the product. Some make it difficult to see or click on the demo delivery prim in the display. Some put their demos in a box that you have to unpack. Some don't even have demos at all. 

I think the best way of making a change in demo design would be to approach shopping event organizers and see if they have some rules or best practices that they give to the creators. If a creator gets a memo to make the demo transferrable then they might change the way they do demos at their store too. I see it as a win win scenario where we can get demos the way we want and creators can increase sales.

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

I can't see a point to no copy/no mod/trans demos because that is what will happen if creators start making demos transferable.

Be careful what you wish for. You might get it. In spades.

[Qie Niangao]

6 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I can't see a point to no copy/no mod/trans demos because that is what will happen if creators start making demos transferable.

Be careful what you wish for. You might get it. In spades.

But demos are pretty much always no-mod (to prevent becoming non-demos) and I'm not sure why I'd want to copy a demo. If for some reason I need another copy, I can just get it right where I got the first one—which is why a creator would have to be an idiot to make them no-copy in the first place, but of course you'd be correct: many creators will do it. I just don't see much downside to that, and there's the incidental upside of revealing which creators are, in fact, idiots.

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

True, but it takes a lot more effort to do so, and there is a chance you get muted within 2 or 3 prim deliveries.
Over the marketplace one can get hundreds of people bombarded with hundreds of items, before one gets muted or suspended.

Sure, but again I'm not advocating for Marketplace demos to be giftable. I'm really only concerned with demos for in-world shopping, and mostly at events.

(Personally, I'd be more than happy for Marketplace to be shut down altogether if only there were reasonable in-world product search, and in-world product reviews, development of neither will ever happen as long as there's this primitive, standalone Marketplace kludge. If Marketplace had instead been built as an inherently integrated, alternate view of the in-world shopping experience, then it would be worth keeping.)

[Lucia Nightfire]

The primary reason free content is ungiftable is to deter the grief vector of some bot/idiot using a third party(seller) to spam send inventory offers, forcing to victim into a situation where they have to mute/block someone who is not the actual griefer.

[Silent Mistwalker]

56 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

But demos are pretty much always no-mod (to prevent becoming non-demos) and I'm not sure why I'd want to copy a demo. If for some reason I need another copy, I can just get it right where I got the first one—which is why a creator would have to be an idiot to make them no-copy in the first place, but of course you'd be correct: many creators will do it. I just don't see much downside to that, and there's the incidental upside of revealing which creators are, in fact, idiots.

We must not be buying the same kind of products then. For what I buy, the demo needs to be mod and copy in case I mess up when modding to test/adjust. If I can't test or make adjustments on the demo to see if it is useable, I'm not wasting what little money I may have once in a while. Not even 1L.

 

Edit: I don't  disagree with you on being able to gift a demo from a vendor. I've held that opinion for many years but, once again, no one really listened so after a while I just found better things to do.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker

[Qie Niangao]

52 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

The primary reason free content is ungiftable is to deter the grief vector of some bot/idiot using a third party(seller) to spam send inventory offers, forcing to victim into a situation where they have to mute/block someone who is not the actual griefer.

Ah, that makes sense, thanks. It wouldn't be much of a challenge for the vendor to prevent that as part of the whole gift-buying process, as long as all the grief-gifting is through the same vendor system, but otherwise it would argue in favor of making event demos transferable instead of giftable.

In case it's not obvious, one reason I'm mostly focused on events (besides my general impression that they're where the money's at) is that those demos are the hottest newest stuff that can most benefit by being spread as widely as possible as quickly as possible and (controversy alert) events are often inaccessible to non-Premium members for some time after opening, during which time a Premium gifting the real, revenue-generating product to a Basic friend/alt may depend on that Basic being able to demo the product, necessarily remotely.

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

Ah, that makes sense, thanks. It wouldn't be much of a challenge for the vendor to prevent that as part of the whole gift-buying process, as long as all the grief-gifting is through the same vendor system, but otherwise it would argue in favor of making event demos transferable instead of giftable.

In case it's not obvious, one reason I'm mostly focused on events (besides my general impression that they're where the money's at) is that those demos are the hottest newest stuff that can most benefit by being spread as widely as possible as quickly as possible and (controversy alert) events are often inaccessible to non-Premium members for some time after opening, during which time a Premium gifting the real, revenue-generating product to a Basic friend/alt may depend on that Basic being able to demo the product, necessarily remotely.

Another idea would be for all stores to have their demos available at their main store If they have one.  I love the few groups that send them in a notice.  This could also eliminate people at busy events trying on demos.

 

[Qie Niangao]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Another idea would be for all stores to have their demos available at their main store If they have one.  I love the few groups that send them in a notice.  This could also eliminate people at busy events trying on demos.

Oh, this is interesting. I, too, quite appreciate getting a demo in a group notice, and you're right: events should be more than happy to keep demo-testing off the venue, especially at first, so they shouldn't want to impose rules against those free demos being available elsewhere.

The opportunity, I think, is to leverage the many people at the event, seeing stuff they'd recommend to others who aren't in attendance (and maybe cannot attend). If that's not a transferable demo itself, it could very well be a kind of "calling card" to a demo: a product image (or URL to one?) and as direct a link as possible to the corresponding demo-dispenser at the main store, as well as to the one at the event if/when the recipient can get in.

Admittedly I have no instinct for commerce, but it seems as if there could be something here.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Ah, that makes sense, thanks. It wouldn't be much of a challenge for the vendor to prevent that as part of the whole gift-buying process, as long as all the grief-gifting is through the same vendor system, but otherwise it would argue in favor of making event demos transferable instead of giftable.

In case it's not obvious, one reason I'm mostly focused on events (besides my general impression that they're where the money's at) is that those demos are the hottest newest stuff that can most benefit by being spread as widely as possible as quickly as possible and (controversy alert) events are often inaccessible to non-Premium members for some time after opening, during which time a Premium gifting the real, revenue-generating product to a Basic friend/alt may depend on that Basic being able to demo the product, necessarily remotely.

There are those of us who don't go to  events. True, we are small in number but the amount we spend isn't necessarily less than anyone else in SL. We just don't spend it at crowded events. When you think about it, that's a pretty hefty chunk of change creators are missing out on. As I understand it, items sold at these events can't be (or aren't) made available for purchase outside of the event until after the event is over, if the items are made available for purchase at all. You're always behind everyone else (if anyone) who happens to be needing the same item for a project (not necessarily the same project) and the only reason for it is crowds freak you out.

And  that's on top of what you brought up in your second paragraph. 

Keep throwing up road blocks and after a while people are going to get fed up and either just go home and raise hell or try to run the blockade. Either way you can't get past the road blocks.

[Rolig Loon]

16 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

There are those of us who don't go to  events. True, we are small in number but the amount we spend isn't necessarily less than anyone else in SL. We just don't spend it at crowded events.

I'm not sure that it's a small number, but I'm also not sure that there's any way to find out. I rarely go to shopping events myself, partly because I don't care for crowds, partly because those events often have a lot of merchants selling the same boring stuff, and partly because I truly don't enjoy shopping.  I'm most likely to buy clothing and other things for my avatar if a good friend sends me a LM to a place I haven't visited before.  My alts all share the same biases, so they are just as unlikely to do a lot of heavy shopping, especially at an event.  As a result, their wardrobes are rarely updated.  It would be so much easier if I could grab a handful of copy/trans demos and send them to my alts instead of making them log in and get the demos themselves.  Even better if a friend could send me copy/trans demos instead of store LMs.   

[Jennifer Boyle]

15 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

 Some creators set their demos with a timer that makes them disappear while you are wearing and deciding if you want to buy. Some put obnoxious attachments around the demo that it is difficult to look at the product. Some make it difficult to see or click on the demo delivery prim in the display. Some put their demos in a box that you have to unpack. Some don't even have demos at all.

Isn't it amazing how creative creators can be about finding ways to pi$$ shoppers off so they don't buy their wares?

[Qie Niangao]

13 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

There are those of us who don't go to  events.

I never really shop at events, but they're pretty much the only place I buy anything, and that's because I can very quickly check out what's new at the event if there's a Seraphim page for it. (Any merchant who doesn't get their stuff ready by the time Seraphim shoots the photos would do better to wait until the next event, as far as selling anything to me.)

To be honest, the most effective way to sell to me would be to link delivery of demos directly from those event photos pages. That poses an interesting question of both tech and commerce:

• Could LL serve account authentication to a third-party site, so a Seraphim blog-browser could arrive pre-identified to the site for delivery of these demos?
• and what would be LL's incentive to do so, inasmuch as it would (kinda) compete with clunky old Marketplace web-shopping, from which they take a cut?

An obvious alternative would be for the shopping blog to handle its own separate account system, sorta like the way the pre-Marketplace web-shopping worked. (Remember those kludges? Had to touch some in-world panel to associate your avatar UUID with your web-shopping identity to validate it was really you? Somebody must recall the tech innards of SL Exchange and SL Boutique or whatever they were called, and there was an "adult" version too for a while, during the Adult Content transition.) But it seems to me the fewer accounts for the same identity, the better; that must be a basic principle of cyber security, right?

[Silent Mistwalker]

19 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

I'm not sure that it's a small number, but I'm also not sure that there's any way to find out. I rarely go to shopping events myself, partly because I don't care for crowds, partly because those events often have a lot of merchants selling the same boring stuff, and partly because I truly don't enjoy shopping.  I'm most likely to buy clothing and other things for my avatar if a good friend sends me a LM to a place I haven't visited before.  My alts all share the same biases, so they are just as unlikely to do a lot of heavy shopping, especially at an event.  As a result, their wardrobes are rarely updated.  It would be so much easier if I could grab a handful of copy/trans demos and send them to my alts instead of making them log in and get the demos themselves.  Even better if a friend could send me copy/trans demos instead of store LMs.   

 

JC. I knew someone would have jumped on it if I had not said that we are a small number but I didn't think someone would jump on saying we're small in number. No wonder I don't have any friends. I get fed up with people constantly doing this sort of thing all. the. damn. time.

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I never really shop at events, but they're pretty much the only place I buy anything, and that's because I can very quickly check out what's new at the event if there's a Seraphim page for it. (Any merchant who doesn't get their stuff ready by the time Seraphim shoots the photos would do better to wait until the next event, as far as selling anything to me.)

To be honest, the most effective way to sell to me would be to link delivery of demos directly from those event photos pages. That poses an interesting question of both tech and commerce:

• Could LL serve account authentication to a third-party site, so a Seraphim blog-browser could arrive pre-identified to the site for delivery of these demos?
• and what would be LL's incentive to do so, inasmuch as it would (kinda) compete with clunky old Marketplace web-shopping, from which they take a cut?

An obvious alternative would be for the shopping blog to handle its own separate account system, sorta like the way the pre-Marketplace web-shopping worked. (Remember those kludges? Had to touch some in-world panel to associate your avatar UUID with your web-shopping identity to validate it was really you? Somebody must recall the tech innards of SL Exchange and SL Boutique or whatever they were called, and there was an "adult" version too for a while, during the Adult Content transition.) But it seems to me the fewer accounts for the same identity, the better; that must be a basic principle of cyber security, right?

I wouldn't know. I don't bother with blogs.

Why people want to go looking outside of SL for what they want to buy inside SL doesn't make sense to me. 

LL bought Boutique and XStreet and those became the MP (mostly XStreet). I was fine with both before MP. and didn't need anything else then or now. There weren't any shopping blogs and they weren't needed any more then than they are now. 

Humans are always trying to complicate things when it is completely unnecessary and uncalled for.