We have the power to make SL a "big thing" again (really) and tip the ongoing narrative, let's do this! c= let's do our part (for our sake)

[Mollymews]

10 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Oh yes, a user customizable interface is definitely an interesting idea.

in Qt (the UI library Linden uses) the fundamental components for doing this is QAction and QActionEvent

QActions contain and execute the program code for that action.  UI controls are all bound to a QAction. Controls do not contain or execute program code (other than the code to draw themselves on the screen). When the user interacts with a control then the action code is invoked

as Linden have started on separating UI rendering from inworld rendering then hopefully they are going down this path

more about this here: https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qaction.html

[Arielle Popstar]

On 6/5/2021 at 10:50 PM, Drayke Newall said:

Whilst I am all for a more streamlined viewer (unlike what Solar seems to always imply, this doesn't mean removal of features but readjusting them to a more user friendly method) the inventory is one aspect that would be very difficult to make user friendly. Even in 99% of games the inventory system is a mess and SL has more inventory than any of them.

I don't know about all the other games but I have to look no further than IMVU for a good example of a Graphical UI Inventory system that that just blows S/L's text based UI out of the water. With it's Categories, Undo, Redo, scrolling window interface, one can put outfits together in less than 30 seconds where the same would take upwards of 10 minutes in S/L's text based explorer style window. S/L is a quarter century behind in that aspect alone and it is one of the top reasons why new people consider S/L to have a steep learning curve. We could go a long way at flattening that curve by converting it to a graphical UI instead like IMVU has done. There are plenty of studies out there that have tested this and found that graphic UI's done properly are much more user friendly, user satisfying, less prone to errors and significantly speeds up workflows. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10730600/

As you can see from the screenshot, in one glance you can see 100 different hairs with more just a scroll away. Can quickly and easily try a number of them in quick succession or revert to a previous one without having to having to search. There are more potential selections then one has available in the S/L UI window without scrolling and can almost immediately see which hair I would want to try on next. The tiles for the entire inventory must be in cache so even selecting a new category window shows them all very quickly. Pictures are worth a thousand lines of the typical inventory text.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

On 6/6/2021 at 1:39 AM, Alwin Alcott said:

Inventory asks a little maintenance by the user. Let it go for a month and it's a mess .. don't blame LL for that. The structure is totally in control of the user.
Webbased won't change that for the mass.
If that is the biggest issue and urgent ?... let them spend time and money on other things please.

Well this thread is about new users and retaining them so maybe it is time to try something new rather then just doing what has always been done in the past. These sort of threads always seem to devolve into discussions about some high end feature select people want to have put in the viewer, which likely will not do anything for keeping a noobie coming back for a second visit. Considering the inventory ui was modern in 1995, maybe it is time to acknowledge we are into a new millennium and update it to current standards for a graphical UI rather than something that is barely a step up from the command line interface. Let them spend some time and money on what is important for the continuation of S/L as a whole, not a new enhanced version of EEP.

[Theresa Tennyson]

9 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Let them spend some time and money on what is important for the continuation of S/L as a whole, not a new enhanced version of EEP.

Who'll spend the time and money to update all the inventory items that don't have the necessary data to allow your scheme to work, including those items that were made by people who are now dead?

[Alwin Alcott]

14 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well this thread is about new users and retaining them so maybe it is time to try something new rather then just doing what has always been done in the past. These sort of threads always seem to devolve into discussions about some high end feature select people want to have put in the viewer, which likely will not do anything for keeping a noobie coming back for a second visit. Considering the inventory ui was modern in 1995, maybe it is time to acknowledge we are into a new millennium and update it to current standards for a graphical UI rather than something that is barely a step up from the command line interface. Let them spend some time and money on what is important for the continuation of S/L as a whole, not a new enhanced version of EEP.

the average user on SL should learn to delete stuff they don't use.. that will solve most inventory problems. The updates most here seem to want won't keep new users stay. It's nothing more than patching, if SL wants to grow there need to be done things, big things, under the hood, not cosmetic. Inventory is one of the least problems.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Who'll spend the time and money to update all the inventory items that don't have the necessary data to allow your scheme to work, including those items that were made by people who are now dead?

What data would be needed that isn't already available? A typical MP ad already has a picture url that can populate the Graphical UI and there must be a command to "wear" the dress when clicking it in the inventory.

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

the average user on SL should learn to delete stuff they don't use.. that will solve most inventory problems. The updates most here seem to want won't keep new users stay. It's nothing more than patching, if SL wants to grow there need to be done things, big things, under the hood, not cosmetic. Inventory is one of the least problems.

I disagree. Some of the most popular games out there are not great graphically but they are easy to navigate. Besides you are talking about retaining long term users who are not leaving anyway. This is about retaining new users who have a problem wearing what little inventory they do have.

[Rolig Loon]

7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

What data would be needed that isn't already available? A typical MP ad already has a picture url that can populate the Graphical UI and there must be a command to "wear" the dress when clicking it in the inventory.

That assumes that (a) most of the things in a person's inventory came from MP and (b) most of that is clothing or other things that come with useful pictures.  Most of the stuff in my inventory doesn't fit to either assumption.  I suspect that's true for most people.

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Rolig Loon said:

That assumes that (a) most of the things in a person's inventory came from MP and (b) most of that is clothing or other things that come with useful pictures.  Most of the stuff in my inventory doesn't fit to either assumption.  I suspect that's true for most people.

But then it wouldn't or shouldn't be a big deal to upload one's own picture to the GUI. And regardless if there is an MP listing, there would be some sort of command to "wear item UUID". Each tile placemark would have the relevant script/code that just needs to grab it automatically or inserted manually by the user.

[Rolig Loon]

6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

But then it wouldn't or shouldn't be a big deal to upload one's own picture to the GUI.

A picture of all our scripts or sounds?  And how would "Wear Item UUID" be relevant to all the notecards, LMs, Calling Cards, and whatnot in our inventories, to say nothing of the mound of things we create for ourselves?  Adding a device for displaying clothing images is a fine idea, but it's not much of a strategy for managing most of what's in our inventories.

[Rowan Amore]

CTS Wardrobe..it's already available.

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

A picture of all our scripts or sounds?  And how would "Wear Item UUID" be relevant to all the notecards, LMs, Calling Cards, and whatnot in our inventories, to say nothing of the mound of things we create for ourselves?  Adding a device for displaying clothing images is a fine idea, but it's not much of a strategy for managing most of what's in our inventories.

I did answer about the self created items already and yes, S/L has a wider variety of items than IMVU  but I am sure if more people were on board in thinking how this could be done rather than not, solutions would be found. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

32 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

What data would be needed that isn't already available? A typical MP ad already has a picture url that can populate the Graphical UI and there must be a command to "wear" the dress when clicking it in the inventory.

How will the inventory know that a dress is a dress and not a hairstyle, speedboat or plywood cube, all of which are exactly the same to the inventory system as it now stands?

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Theresa Tennyson said:

How will the inventory know that a dress is a dress and not a hairstyle, speedboat or plywood cube, all of which are exactly the same to the inventory system as it now stands?

Than why does a dress attach to the last place it was attached to if it does not somewhere already have that information? Or any of the other items you mentioned?

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

CTS Wardrobe..it's already available.

Needs to be in the viewer by default, not leave it to a noob to find it and then read all the instruction involved in setting it up. That just makes the learning curve steeper, not less.

[Rolig Loon]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Than why does a dress attach to the last place it was attached to if it does not somewhere already have that information? Or any of the other items you mentioned?

Any object will do that.  If you're like most of us, I'm sure you must have attached a random plywood cube, or sailboat or outhouse to your av at some time.  The inventory system doesn't know that you are trying to attach something that's a non-dress.  It assumes you are smarter than that.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Rolig Loon said:

Any object will do that.  If you're like most of us, I'm sure you must have attached a random plywood cube, or sailboat or outhouse to your av at some time.  The inventory system doesn't know that you are trying to attach something that's a non-dress.  It assumes you are smarter than that.

Any item will reattach to the last attachment point. It has some sort of history. Even so, it should not be hard to have the context menu available to be used to attach to a new point or rezz on ground. Making the Text UI into a graphic one by placing a picture over them does not need to change anything else. Just a different presentation. Pictures instead of text. Let's not complicate it.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I don't know about all the other games but I have to look no further than IMVU for a good example of a Graphical UI Inventory system.....

 

 

IMVU doesn't have the same complex avatar body ecosystem as SL.

What do you anticipate a picture of some bit of clothing to functionally do?

How is that going to know what body you have on, what parts you want to wear or don't ..

Do you really want to buy a new thing and then it unpack to a dozen identical tiled images one for each variation or body, with no consistency as to how they are differentiated.

 

It's easy to point at other systems, but very difficult to apply them to Second Life.

 

We could make this work if everyone ONLY used the system avatar and system layers, we have prototype code to render thumbnail pictures automatically and everything. 

 

Kitty and I have been doing Catznip for a decade, thanks for coming to my TED talk.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Coffee Pancake

[Theresa Tennyson]

24 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Than why does a dress attach to the last place it was attached to if it does not somewhere already have that information? Or any of the other items you mentioned?

It attaches to the last place it was attached because, when it is rezzed, it contains information about the last attachment point it used. Which, realistically, is useless as teats on a boar hog currently. It's an even chance that the maker just punted and had it attach to the default right hand slot. Yes, it would make everyone's life a lot easier if there were standardized attachment points for clothing items, but that's something that the clothing makers need to come together on.

And all that is moot for inventory operations anyway, because the entry in the inventory system won't have that information. It's the same as how you can't read what's on page 231 of a book by looking at the spine of it as it's sitting in your bookshelf.

[Arielle Popstar]

7 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

IMVU doesn't have the same complex avatar body ecosystem as SL.

What do you anticipate a picture of some bit of clothing to functionally do?

How is that going to know what body you have on, what parts you want to wear or don't ..

Do you really want to buy a new thing and then it unpack to a dozen identical tiled images one for each variation or body, with no consistency as to how they are differentiated.

 

It's easy to point at other systems, but very difficult to apply them to Second Life.

 

We could make this work if everyone ONLY used the system avatar and system layers, we have prototype code to render thumbnail pictures automatically and everything. 

 

Kitty and I have been doing Catznip for a decade, thanks for coming to my TED talk.

I realize that S/L is more complicated but I should point out that on those tiles in the screenshot, there are links in hidden the corners that show up on a mouseover. A drop down menu could be used for items that have more individual parts. 

Since there are scanning huds that know what others are wearing, it should be easy for the viewer to automatically select the proper clothing items for the body worn by its owner. BoM simplifies things too.

Where do I access your Ted talks?

[Coffee Pancake]

12 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I realize that S/L is more complicated but I should point out that on those tiles in the screenshot, there are links in hidden the corners that show up on a mouseover. A drop down menu could be used for items that have more individual parts. 

Since there are scanning huds that know what others are wearing, it should be easy for the viewer to automatically select the proper clothing items for the body worn by its owner. BoM simplifies things too.

Where do I access your Ted talks?

You are aware items can come with sub folders .. right, come with extra stuff to unpack, have none attachment contents, include variations for the same mesh body (eg, hair and BOOBS), that there is no standard way to denote X attachments is designed for Y body (and different creators do it differently).

Pictorial inventory management systems do exist for SL (see the Wardrobe), but they require a significant amount of exact per-object manual configuration to even get close to the functionality you're expecting.

All of this is stuff that's very easy for a human to sort out, but very hard for a machine.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Coffee Pancake

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

You are aware items can come with sub folders .. right, come with extra stuff to unpack, have none attachment contents, include variations for the same mesh body (eg, hair and BOOBS), that there is no standard way to denote X attachments is designed for Y body (and different creators do it differently).

Pictorial inventory management systems do exist for SL (see the Wardrobe), but they require a significant amount of exact per-object manual configuration to even get close to the functionality you're expecting.

All of this is stuff that's very easy for a human to sort out, but very hard for a machine.

Well then if the machine cannot be taught to figure it out, then the humans may need to repackage their content in a way that they can. If something like this cannot even be sorted out, why bother talking about any other viewer changes? Most other ideas only increase the level of complexity whereas to be able to attract new users and keep them, it needs to be simplified and streamlined to make the S/L experience easier to learn and manage. 

[Ardy Lay]

I has a thing of things:

[Drayke Newall]

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I don't know about all the other games but I have to look no further than IMVU for a good example of a Graphical UI Inventory system that that just blows S/L's text based UI out of the water. With it's Categories, Undo, Redo, scrolling window interface, one can put outfits together in less than 30 seconds where the same would take upwards of 10 minutes in S/L's text based explorer style window. S/L is a quarter century behind in that aspect alone and it is one of the top reasons why new people consider S/L to have a steep learning curve. We could go a long way at flattening that curve by converting it to a graphical UI instead like IMVU has done. There are plenty of studies out there that have tested this and found that graphic UI's done properly are much more user friendly, user satisfying, less prone to errors and significantly speeds up workflows. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10730600/

As you can see from the screenshot, in one glance you can see 100 different hairs with more just a scroll away. Can quickly and easily try a number of them in quick succession or revert to a previous one without having to having to search. There are more potential selections then one has available in the S/L UI window without scrolling and can almost immediately see which hair I would want to try on next. The tiles for the entire inventory must be in cache so even selecting a new category window shows them all very quickly. Pictures are worth a thousand lines of the typical inventory text.

That is all well and good but I already mentioned in my post that in an ideal world clothing should be separate from the inventory and in the outfit section similar to what you posted. As others have already stated though, Second Life just cant do this and to update it would require far to much work to make it happen, with literally new mechanics needing to be made. If this was to happen with LL track record you would be waiting 4 years for such a thing.

Also IMVU's inventory is entirely different to Second Life. Notice that pic you posted is all about avatars, clothing, accessories etc. Second Life has more beyond just avatar appearance and therefore the inventory would still stay the same. I wont repeat what Coffee Pancake posted as that would be my response as well. There is no standardisation.. That is long past and we all know Linden Lab have no desire to create a standard comparable mesh avatar to creator made.

Lastly, the best we can hope for is to have a simple icon change method in the inventory like I mentioned as whilst complicated it is a small fix that would enable some form of identification system to the inventory other than a cube and text title.

Personally I use the outfit gallery like Ardy Lay. I just wish however that it didn't cost money to take the picture of the avatar as that removes the ability for new players that dont have the lindens to actually use a mechanic within the viewer. In other words they see it costs money and either dont use it or simply leave because they cant understand how a company would charge money to use a feature in the actual viewer. It is akin to charging money to create a new folder in your inventory!

[Ardy Lay]

The pictures are also blurry for some damn reason.  I didn't deliberately blur them for the screen-clip I shared here, the viewer has a bug, I guess, that saved me the trouble of obscuring avatar nudity for the sake for the forum.