We have the power to make SL a "big thing" again (really) and tip the ongoing narrative, let's do this! c= let's do our part (for our sake)

[Prokofy Neva]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

The problem with that is that the Second Life software doesn't have anything to offer that opensim can't do at least as well for free.

SL's only three advantages over opensim are a slightly better physics engine, a well established and fairly large user base and a ton of ready made content. Nothing of this is for Linden Lab to sell though. The physics engine is Microsoft's, the content belongs to the various content creators and the users are owned by themselves.

Well, you're thinking only literally of the software, and not software-as-a-service.

The Open Sim crew aren't capable of scaling up and having customer service and limitation of liability and third-party service contractors and many other things that LL will have as a company and not just a few people scattered here and there who often go out of business. Having the people isn't trivial -- customer lists. So those are the people they would sell essentially a better open sim to, and there could be levels of service for different costs. The content is of course the creators, but the market place on the web and inworld belongs to LL. And the one ingredient missing is networked advertising that LL regulates and controls, and once they get over their socialist inhibition and stop listening to screaming socialist oldbies who thing all advertising is evil (which is in part the reason we have all this ugly ad farm nonsense), they will make money, we will make money, just like TV and social media make money from ad spaces they control, and their customers sell their products.

When I say "socialist," I mean especially that amalgam of socialism that is interwoven with anti-American hatred and hatred of mass or low-brow taste, so they imagine tawdry sex clubs XXXX hawking their wares on the road side, or they imagine crappy one-prim furniture with loud colours on spinning signs, or they imagine what they imagine. But LL began with info hub ads you could buy on rotation, they had rules, they worked, and they could bring them back. They could regular any other ad space an end the scourge of giant billboards, ad farm extortion, spinning signs, obelisks. When they are ready to do this, it will pay off for them although there will be some pain as they unseat -- the Russian word for advertising and get a routine for their staff.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

On 5/30/2021 at 2:04 PM, animats said:

Yes. An important point. Linden Lab is good at running this world. It's run like a municipality - they keep the power on, maintain the streets and public services, provide some minimal enforcement, collect property taxes, and otherwise don't bother the residents much. It works.

That's not how game companies see their worlds. They insist on a dictatorship, with them in charge. Most of the other virtual worlds with significant user counts have heavy-handed control by secret police. LL's land system diffuses most of that power in the hands of individual landowners. LL does have Governance, a small staff that responds only to serious problems. There are Governance meetings once a month. They're boring, like city council meetings.

Worth getting out there is why Second Life works as a society.

I have my arguments with LL, but mostly over the aging technology.

That's quite a sanitized and utopian depiction of the supposed benign Linden "mayor".

In fact, SL is run like China or Russia, with inflation caused by printing currency, secrecy about such emission, secrecy about different rates of exchange and so on.

It is a closed society like China or Russia with no free press on the forums at all, and inworld, slightly more, but also a very limited version. You cannot criticize a company or individual or make allegations of wrong-doing about them -- which is vital for a free press especially when something else is missing --

No independent judiciary. Lindens refuse to adjudicate even the most egregious offenses like extortion or defamation or serious harassment or property destruction.

There is no transparent police blotter or code of criminal procedures. The appeals process is virtually non-existent.

In a world where LL can seize land 'for any reason or no reason," even for speech offenses, that's hardly any power "diffusing" back into land owners.

The Governance and Moncierge meetings are boring because the Lindens running them are like a complaints book. They take down complaints. They mouth platitudes, they cite the Knowledge Base as if no one else is capable of word-searching it and did long ago.

Second Life doesn't work as a society, in fact, NINE out of 10 new citizens leave because of all kinds of complaints, griefing, theft, harassment, inability to find information -- not merely for technical capacity.

People develop serious complaints about their regions and can't get anyone to listen to them and take action.

Search has been broken now for eight months; I've filed dozens of tickets, had dozens of responses from Lindens, but at the "boring meeting" which you imply is so benign they just tell me and others to file them again.

A big issue with the SL situation as in Russia or China is that some percentage of the user base, often the skilled engineering class, as it were, or the oligarchs, the wealthy land owners or manufacturers, side with LL as it butters their bread and they won't acknowledge real flaws that aren't trivial, that in fact are needed for a prosperous and flourishing society.

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[ChinRey]

18 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Well, you're thinking only literally of the software, and not software-as-a-service.

I was actually thinking about that too but ended up not mentioning anything about it. Glad you brought it up.

 

18 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The Open Sim crew aren't capable of scaling up and having customer service and limitation of liability and third-party service contractors and many other things that LL will have as a company and not just a few people scattered here and there who often go out of business.

That's true but there's nothing to stop independent operators to develop and market a full service and support package for opensim if there is a market for it. This is a common business model for operating systems today and there's no reason why it can't be done with other software as well.

Edited June 3, 2021 by ChinRey

[Janet Voxel]

25 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The Governance and Moncierge meetings are boring because the Lindens running them are like a complaints book. They take down complaints. They mouth platitudes, they cite the Knowledge Case

So are creators meetings; the first half is "Here's what we're doing, any questions?" the second half is "You said you were going to fix ________________ three years ago in the meeting on 06/03/18. It's still not fixed...explain. AND ANOTHER THING...."

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

3 hours ago, ChinRey said:

The problem with that is that the Second Life software doesn't have anything to offer that opensim can't do at least as well for free.

SL's only three advantages over opensim are a slightly better physics engine, a well established and fairly large user base and a ton of ready made content. Nothing of this is for Linden Lab to sell though. The physics engine is Microsoft's, the content belongs to the various content creators and the users are owned by themselves.

Very true, although I see Opensim largely following SecondLife's lead, not innovating. (Kitely's region-on-demand is a notable exception).

As regards the slightly better physics engine,  the only place I see this as significantly better in SecondLife is with the mesh upload stage. For actual inworld physics for moving objects, SecondLife's performance tends to be lower than that in an opensim region because of the poor performance issues that have been mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

However, Opensim has the big advantage of not being tied to any company strategy, or hamstrung by asset/funding limitations. It also has the second and possibly bigger advantage of allowing people to connect standalones to the grid, (effectively Hiro's Office).

OpenSim is to SecondLife as Linux is to Microsoft.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

2 hours ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

What content is likely to break with a major graphics engine rebuild?

I've seen a similar situation elsewhere.

The Auran Trainz Simulator changed their Jet graphics engine a couple of times, between 2006-2009, then more recently for Tane. Although no existing content actually broke because of the changes to the graphics engine, a lot of older content looks very poor because texture usage changes, the billboard vegetation for example that was fine in 2006 looked awful in 2009. I would expect similar should SL go for an overhaul of their graphics, old stuff would still work, but you'd take one look at it and retch.

The things in Trainz that did actually break weren't the result of the graphics engine changes as such, but other changes that were all bundled up in the general overhaul. Once you get going on upgrading a certain part of a software system it's almost impossible to prevent feature-creep and tagalongs adding to the order.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku

[Modulated]

Seems like a lot of denial in this thread and SL is never going to be as good as it was 13 or 14 years ago. It stands to reason because everything has a natural end , even virtual worlds. Open your eyes and try to really see what is happening . This thing is more or less in maintenance mode and it's just going to dwindle until it's abandoned.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Modulated said:

Seems like a lot of denial in this thread and SL is never going to be as good as it was 13 or 14 years ago. It stands to reason because everything has a natural end , even virtual worlds. Open your eyes and try to really see what is happening . This thing is more or less in maintenance mode and it's just going to dwindle until it's abandoned.

Yes ... but it doesn't have to end. Kinda the point of this discussion.

 

[Finite]

1 hour ago, Modulated said:

Seems like a lot of denial in this thread and SL is never going to be as good as it was 13 or 14 years ago. It stands to reason because everything has a natural end , even virtual worlds. Open your eyes and try to really see what is happening . This thing is more or less in maintenance mode and it's just going to dwindle until it's abandoned.

What parts are worse than they were 13 or 14 years ago? I've played off an on  since 2006 and every time I've come back the game seemed noticeably better to me. 

2011:

https://imgur.com/BwZKE7w

2012:

https://imgur.com/YblrsGh

https://imgur.com/11Z8DxF

2017:

https://imgur.com/2S9vSsO

https://imgur.com/z1B90XE

2020:

https://imgur.com/Ahp9tIb

https://imgur.com/shekw9b

2021:

https://imgur.com/aosOTqe

 

I think as long as LL remains private it'll be fine. I'd be more concerned if it ever goes public.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Finite

[Janet Voxel]

2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Yes ... but it doesn't have to end. Kinda the point of this discussion.

 

Shhhhh...they were being wise, with a twist of angst and nihilism. *chef’s kiss*

I used to LARP that when I was 20.

[FairreLilette]

5 hours ago, ChinRey said:

That's true but there's nothing to stop independent operators to develop and market a full service and support package for opensim if there is a market for it. This is a common business model for operating systems today and there's no reason why it can't be done with other software as well.

If O*****m has an EEP-free, and I mean a viewer with no EEP whatsoever, I will go.  I have integrated graphics and my GPU and EEP are not compatible.  But, I'd need an O*****m viewer with windlights in a menu and a slider so I could continue with my photography.  Could someone let me know in an IM if O*****m has windlights in the viewer menu with a slider to adjust like the old SL and FS viewers did.  

[Rowan Amore]

21 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

If O*****m has an EEP-free, and I mean a viewer with no EEP whatsoever, I will go.  I have integrated graphics and my GPU and EEP are not compatible.  But, I'd need an O*****m viewer with windlights in a menu and a slider so I could continue with my photography.  Could someone let me know in an IM if O*****m has windlights in the viewer menu with a slider to adjust like the old SL and FS viewers did.  

Are you currently using the NON EEP firestorm viewer?

[FairreLilette]

15 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Are you currently using the NON EEP firestorm viewer?

The only currently available older FS non-EEP viewer is an oddity to me.  It has the windlights and the slider but the materials are broken all the same for integrated GPU like mine and it has it's maximum texture buffer at 512 even for the 64-bits like me (all the EEP viewers buffer at 512 now on EEP for integrated GPU's like mine apparently) plus other things that the EEP viewers have which also do not work for integrated GPU's like mine, so best I could describe it is it's like a hybrid NOT really a non-EEP viewer entirely.  It's sort of passable in that at least I can work my windlights via a very easy to use menu and simply move a slider to make incredible lightings in minutes.  I will never like EEP, it's a mega hassle, even if I got a new GPU.  EEP takes hours for a good lighting with trying to find the EEP's and then move stuff for each one to hopefully find a good lighting; windlights and a slider I can make beautiful lightings in literally seconds, so I never want to go on any EEP viewer.  It's a dud to me and nothing would change my mind even if I got a new GPU.  But, to answer your question, it is not entirely a non-EEP viewer, the only available older FS viewer for SL.

Edited June 4, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Rowan Amore]

41 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

The only currently available older FS non-EEP viewer is an oddity to me.  It has the windlights and the slider but the materials are broken all the same for integrated GPU like mine and it has it's maximum texture buffer at 512 even for the 64-bits like me (all the EEP viewers buffer at 512 now on EEP for integrated GPU's like mine apparently) plus other things that the EEP viewers have which also do not work for integrated GPU's like mine, so best I could describe it is it's like a hybrid NOT really a non-EEP viewer entirely.  It's sort of passable in that at least I can work my windlights via a very easy to use menu and simply move a slider to make incredible lightings in minutes.  I will never like EEP, it's a mega hassle, even if I got a new GPU.  EEP takes hours for a good lighting with trying to find the EEP's and then move stuff for each one to hopefully find a good lighting; windlights and a slider I can make beautiful lightings in literally seconds, so I never want to go on any EEP viewer.  It's a dud to me and nothing would change my mind even if I got a new GPU.  But, to answer your question, it is not entirely a non-EEP viewer, the only available older FS viewer for SL.

Not sure if you read my entire post before asking which of the older firestorm releases you were using.

 

On 6/1/2021 at 11:40 PM, Rowan Amore said:

They are still in your viewer in quick preferences in the EEP viewer.  You can still move the sun around just like with the slider.  Same thing just a different window to do it in.

ETA.  Not sure which of those older viewers you are currently using but it should be Firestorm 6.3.9 (58205) Release

That is the last pre EEP version and what you would have been using before you updated.  The one you liked.

The one bolded above has NO EEP whatsoever.  If you do a clean install, you should be back to where you were before trying the EEP viewer.  It is the last one you liked and should put everything back as it was before.

ETA. 

FIRESTORM UPDATE 6.3.9.58205

Firestorm DUAL Release for Second Life AND OpenSim grids!

OpenSim users please read the information further down this page, as it applies specifically to OpenSim grids.

First, let’s get this out of the way. This update does NOT contain LL’s Environmental Enhancement Project (EEP). Unfortunately, we were too far into our QA process when LL released EEP and didn’t want to start testing over for it. However, we are working hard to release EEP very soon.

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[FairreLilette]

35 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

On 6/1/2021 at 8:40 PM, Rowan Amore said:

 Firestorm 6.3.9 (58205) Release

That is the last pre EEP version and what you would have been using before you updated.  The one you liked.

The one bolded above has NO EEP whatsoever.  If you do a clean install, you should be back to where you were before trying the EEP viewer.  It is the last one you liked and should put everything back as it was before.

6.3.9 is the one I'm talking about.  It is like a hybrid and has stuff from the EEP viewer, the texture buffer goes up to 512 only and I have 64-bit windows; if I turn materials on it's murky like under water.   The bump and shiny check box together is there.

So, I'm not sure what's going on here but it isn't like the viewer I had pre-EEP.  Plus, I dumped EEP and was on a viewer until April I think it was when that BOM viewer was blocked.  So, I will have to talk to FS group inworld tomorrow to see what's up with this because I'd call 6.3.9 a hybrid and not a complete non-EEP viewer.  A clean install, I'm not sure how to do but I don't understand how the EEP viewer could be or have screwed up this viewer which ran fine before...?

Edited June 4, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

6.3.9 is the one I'm talking about.  It is like a hybrid and has stuff from the EEP viewer, the texture buffer goes up to 512 only; if I turn materials on it's murky like under water.  

So, I'm not sure what's going on here but it isn't like the viewer I had pre-EEP.  Plus, I dumped EEP and was on a viewer until April I think it was when that BOM viewer was blocked.  So, I will have to talk to FS group inworld tomorrow to see what's up with this because I'd call 6.3.9 a hybrid and not a complete non-EEP viewer.  A clean install, I'm not sure how to do but I don't understand how the EEP viewer could be screwing up this viewer which ran fine before...?

https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/fs_clean_install

You should probably check for any files left from downloading the official viewer and delete those as well.  I don't think that has any effect on firestorm but might as well get rid of them too.

ETA

EEP Seen in Non-EEP Firestorm Versions

As of Tuesday, March 19, server-side support for EEP was rolled to all regions on the main grid. This means that all region Windlights in use were automatically converted over to the EEP system.

As of July 2020, Firestorm Viewer has EEP support only in beta versions.

Viewing the new EEP skies on a viewer that doesn't yet have EEP support (like Firestorm 6.3.9 and older) may cause the skies to look slightly different in some cases.

• If you are have a specific Windlight sky set in your viewer (i.e., one you have chosen from Quick Prefs, Phototools, or World menu → Sun Position), then the sky will look the same.
• If you are on a parcel with a Firestorm parcel Windlight set, the sky will look the same because the viewer just reads the Windlight settings in the parcel description and applies those settings locally.
  • If you find the WL doesn't seem to work, first make sure that Use Region WL is not enabled in QuickPrefs
  • Add the “region override” tag to your parcel windlight description; see Windlight for details.
  • If that doesn't fix it, try adding altitude values; see this page for how to do that.
• However, if you are viewing a region Windlight (World → Sun Position → Estate Time) the sky will look different from how it used to.
  • If the sky has visible stars, the stars will look much larger and blotchy. If ALM is enabled, the stars will also look black instead of white.
  • The sun may be bigger or smaller than it should be.
  • There may be subtle lighting differences.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[FairreLilette]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/fs_clean_install

Oh good grief.  LOL  That gave me a headache.  So, something may be corrupted.  That's a lot of steps to do.  Let me talk to FS support inworld tomorrow and see if I can try clear cache first.  I'm not sure I want to go through a whole bunch more hassle than I have been for months now with this EEP stuff though.  I'm pretty well burned out from it all and for what I consider a dud in EEP as it's too much hassle and far too many hours to bother with such a dinosaur as EEP, if I have to go to EEP eventually anyways which I don't want to do ever.  Maybe I will check out OPensim as they offer an old Animesh viewer to use.

Edited June 4, 2021 by FairreLilette

[ChinRey]

11 hours ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

Very true, although I see Opensim largely following SecondLife's lead, not innovating. (Kitely's region-on-demand is a notable exception).

Other notable exceptions include variable region sizes, a couple of extra scrit functions, NINJA (although that never took off) and 32 bit heightmaps for the ground. But yes, for the most part opensim has been all about reproducing the functionality of SL.

 

11 hours ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

OpenSim is to SecondLife as Linux is to Microsoft.

Maybe more like what FreeBSD is to MS Windows. Opensim is released under the FreeBSD license which means somebody can take it one step further and not only offer a service package to an open source program but even do it the Apple way, make a few tweaks to make it incompatible with the main fork and call it their own.

[lucagrabacr]

Remember guys with enough effort and strong enough vision which is both bold and appealing, any unfavorable notion of objective technical reality can be sidelined and overcome by an unstoppable snowball of constructed reality which if it gets big enough will have enough momentum to bring the necessary technical change c=

These doubts we have amount to no net positive gain

[lucagrabacr]

All those tired stories of failure and disappointment people outside tell of Second Life, they are like fairy tales written and believed by people who either don't care, have given up or want the Metaverse brought to them on a silver platter

They are not true, they ground the vision of the Metaverse down to the absolute absence of ambition, girth and dedication required to truly realize such a huge ideal. We are all better off scrubbing the memories of what they said from our mind

From Second Life's "alternatives" and whatnot, you've seen what to come with the absence of ideals and a proper understanding of the heart of this whole endeavor, it's a reality in which dreams and hopes of the Metaverse are replaced by bitterness and heartless superficial appeals to its lowest common denominator

[Sid Nagy]

Not all are dreamers who shut their eyes for reality and dream away all the flaws they see in their environment.
If there is a leaking roof, than the roof is leaking despite whatever fantasies you may dream around it.

[Solar Legion]

Keep the MLM speeches where they belong, m'kay luca?

Edited June 4, 2021 by Solar Legion

[lucagrabacr]

2 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Not all are dreamers who shut their eyes for reality and dream away all the flaws they see in their environment.
If there is a leaking roof, than the roof is leaking despite whatever fantasies you may dream around it.

There is a difference between not acknowledging certain facts and not letting them affect your actions in ways that are detrimental to your goals! c=

Just now, Solar Legion said:

Keep the MLM speeches where they belong, m'kay?

I appreciate you being a contrarian to what I say as it reveals the antithesis of my ideals which can then be further explored, however I feel a proper rebuttal of my statements would be much more contributive

[Solar Legion]

When dealing with people who insist on the sort of MLM jargon you use, no "rebuttal" is necessary.

Go back through, read the thread and you'll see everything has already been covered quite well to boot.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Solar Legion

[Sid Nagy]

The years where I thought SL was the best thing since the invention of sliced bread lay around 2007-2009.
I would go up the barricades if needed in those years, but a lot of that has changed since then.

I'm no longer addicted to the platform.
I still have some fun with it, but when it would shut its gates tomorrow for good, I would only be sorry for the handful of L$ that are on my bank account alt and maybe loosing contact with one or two dear people I know because of and in SL only.

But I could live with the closure, as much as I do when SL continues for a while.
SL is no necessity for me any more.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Sid Nagy