Is the Cloud Working?

[FairreLilette]

28 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

With incredibly few exceptions, no one is paying $30 for ads. The amount the OP is lamenting is L$30 paid per parcel for that parcel to show in Search.

That last bit is important and - splitting hairs here - is not an Ad. Classifieds are Ads. Showing a Parcel in Search is a L$ sink.

Oh, I see.  Thanks for the info on that.

[Prokofy Neva]

15 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

That was YOUR point, my point was that some of these issues have been an issue for a very long time and no amount of cloud uplifting can fix them. 

Yes, it did, the particular issue YOU are experiencing may be new, to you, but search has had numerous issues for years on end. Try looking outside of your own scope for five minutes and you might learn something. Notice that not once did I blame you, your system, your whatever, for the problems. I just happen to know that a lot of them have nothing to do with the cloud and loading onto the cloud couldn't possibly fix them at their core.

That's not made clear by your original "the list of land names", which is why I asked for clarification. You'll also note I didn't say it wasn't affected by the uplift, just that it SHOULDN'T be.

Where, in anything that I said, did I disagree with you that LL drops the ball on things? You never actually read what anyone has to say to you, you just seem to assume you knew where they were going with it just so you can argue. 

Again, reading comprehension is important. I never once said the uplift isn't responsibly "for anything". But you literally blame the cloud uplift for every damn problem you have, or think you have, and in some cases, it's just not possible for the cloud uplift to have been the culprit, it's just not. If you were under the impression that the uplift was going to solve most, or all, of the existing problems, you were mislead. Some of the problems, like I said, can't be solved by moving to the cloud. Yes, it was offered as an improvement for SOME things, but certainly not all, and I have never seen it advertised as that. But you don't seem to like to read those things,  because they're too technical for you. I get that, you don't like that geeky, programmer sort of side of things, and you don't have to. But dismissing it all because you don't understand, don't want to understand, or simply don't like, is foolish.

That's what I said, or did you not read that part too?

Been broke for very long time and the cause definitely has more to do with programming than it does the uplift. No, I don't think they're currently capable of fixing it, and the uplift to the cloud certainly would have NO effect on this hot mess. 

You're partially correct, uplift IS/WAS supposed to help with some things, but it's not a fix all solution for every problem. It can't assist with problems that have nothing to do with the way it functions. The group issues have been around for ages, longer than some reading this have probably even been in sl. Uplifting to the cloud can only assist with issues like this by simplifying and combining other processes thereby leaving more resources dedicated to this problem. Uplifting to the cloud can't fix bad programming, no matter how streamlined the data flow is made, bad data (bad programming) is going to remain so until someone fixes it. You can't put muddy water through a hose and expect it to  come out crystal clear on the other end. This sort of issue is akin to that. Or if you'd prefer, automating a packaging process that would normally be done by hand can't be an improvement if the products being sent through for packaging are broken. It's the same concept really. If it doesn't work, at its core, before being uplifted to the cloud, the data stream is going to be just as messed up when it gets there. Not everything goes through the cloud either, at least not in the sense I think you believe the cloud functions anyway, but that's way too much boring programming mumbo jumbo. I don't know who convinced you that moving to the cloud would solve all of, or even most of, sl's problems, but you probably shouldn't trust that person, because they lied. It can only fix so much on its end, LL is still completely responsible for making sure things, basic things, work first

Search problems have been around at least since the move from Viewer 1 to Viewer 2 where its mechanism was changed, but it has never this bad. I know because I am inworld every day using it numerous times. Are you?

The cloud involves moving data bases and re-addressing things, I should imagine, which is why things like map tiles -- and lists of names on land-- might move slower. It's a reasonable proposition.

No, I don't blame the uplift for the edit window opening above the thing you are trying to see when you edit, that's always been there. If you read my posts instead of reacting to them and plotting your rebuttal, you'd know that.

Again, group issues have been around for ever, but the slowness, or not uploading the names at all, is new.
 

The Lindens have implied, or even said, that moving to the cloud would make things better. If so, that hasn't happened yet. That it could make it worse was never a surprise, as that has been the case forever. "We wanted it to be better, but it turned out like it always does." (Chernomyrdin).

[Prokofy Neva]

9 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

With incredibly few exceptions, no one is paying $30 for ads. The amount the OP is lamenting is L$30 paid per parcel for that parcel to show in Search.

That last bit is important and - splitting hairs here - is not an Ad. Classifieds are Ads. Showing a Parcel in Search is a L$ sink.

This is a curious contrariness I don't understand. Maybe if someone else made the point it wouldn't be said.

Anything you pay is an ad. That it's only $30, or a standard fee, or only is to list doesn't make it "not" an ad. It's an ad. You pay for it.  It's extra. If you have a lot of parcels it adds up. 

It also wouldn't matter whatsoever whether this payment is a sink or source. You still pay for it, and whether the Lindens book it as sink or source is immaterial -- and BTW sinks affect the value of the Linden.

If classifieds are indeed sources -- and I hope they are for the Lindens' sake but we've never confirmed that from them (same with Marketplace taxes) -- that's great, but that doesn't mean that the $30 search/places listing has somehow ceased to be an ad. Why? Because you pay for it in order for your land to show up in search.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

13 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

I have had some problems with this.  So I use SEARCH a different way - see screenshot below.  I bypass the WEBSEARCH part and click open an individual tab such as PEOPLE, then type the name in that white box there and that works.  

 

I haven't experienced other things you mention above but I've never had any problem whatsoever with group chat or groups, although I've heard other people have.  Me, no, never.

But, Marketplace YES...super slow.  I've gotten a bit used to it now though.  What I do is close my Windows window after a purchase and then click on RECENT or click on stuff in my inventory and then suddenly my items will arrive much quicker.  

Second Life is probably near 20 years old now and it wasn't meant to run all these heavy polygon items.  The cloud allows ME to have a social life in Second Life and rez these high polygon people, and I can shop inworld at events and it rezzes in a jiff.  The cloud is amazing, give it time.  

 

You're on Firestorm. Where search isn't broken because you always had those two options and can pick the legacy search with the tabs.

The problem is I'm on the regular viewer. On the SL viewer you don't have websearch, and searching with those tabs gives you thousands of returns, whereas before, in search/places, it only gave you replies of those with the ad for search/places for $30 ticked off, i.e. in the dozens or hundreds.

[Tari Landar]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Search problems have been around at least since the move from Viewer 1 to Viewer 2 where its mechanism was changed, but it has never this bad. I know because I am inworld every day using it numerous times. Are you?

I have probably used search in more ways than you ever have in sl. You have a primary focus, or primary focuses, for most of your sl-which I am not denigrating in the least. Whereas my sl has no primary focus, which means I use quite a bit of sl, in a lot of different ways, including search to do far more. Neither wrong, or right, better, or wrong, they just are how we use sl.  I don't expect that you'll know or understand how the programming, or as you have pointed out numerous times over the years, the geeky/nerdy side of things in sl work. But, plenty of people on these forums DO actually understand it. I don't know why it's so difficult for you to accept that, lol.

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The cloud involves moving data bases and re-addressing things, I should imagine, which is why things like map tiles -- and lists of names on land-- might move slower. It's a reasonable proposition.

Again, I already stated that about the map. The land list of names will likely have more to do with a specific location's performance, which can be affected by the uplift (as in, overall loading slower, not that the queries of object owners themselves are difficult or even slower at base function), than the map which should NOT have been affected by the uplift in the same way. The fact that LL can neither pinpoint the actual problem, nor offer an ETA on its fix, even still, indicates to me that there is more to the map issues. But, again, I don't expect you to understand, or even want to understand, the more technical side of things.  I just wish you didn't deny they existed even before the uplift and will continue to exist after until LL gets to the root of the actual problems. Simply saying the cloud has caused everything, or made everything worse, is no solution and not even true in many cases.

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

No, I don't blame the uplift for the edit window opening above the thing you are trying to see when you edit, that's always been there. If you read my posts instead of reacting to them and plotting your rebuttal, you'd know that.

I have no idea what the hell you're talking about here. I didn't mention anything about edit, or an edit window. Maybe you need to go back and read what you quoted. 

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Again, group issues have been around for ever, but the slowness, or not uploading the names at all, is new.

No, it's not a new issue. Deny it all you want, you'll still be wrong on the matter. It's a very old issue and hasn't been made any worse, or any better, by the uplift. The latter is why people take more issue with it now than before, because it was assumed, wrongly or rightly, by some that it would get better. It hasn't gotten better in years, it has nothing to do with the uplift. It's an ongoing issue that's probably going to keep getting worse until LL fixes it. 

 

[Solar Legion]

Oh for .... 

Edit: There was a bit here but honestly ... it's not worth the bloody headache.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Solar Legion
Wasting my time

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

Tease...

[Prokofy Neva]

20 hours ago, RowanMinx said:

That may work in the viewer but not on the website.  I started a jira about the issue.  At first, they said they couldn't reproduce the issue then came back and said they had.  Searching for a specific person who is not hidden from search returns hundreds of results yet none are for the specific person/name.  Unfortunately, they closed it with this last comment.

Dropping back in to say: we've found some resident names that indeed do not show up in search! We'll investigate further and work on a fix. Thanks again for the report!

It's not just People that is broken but Places.

[Prokofy Neva]

6 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I have probably used search in more ways than you ever have in sl. You have a primary focus, or primary focuses, for most of your sl-which I am not denigrating in the least. Whereas my sl has no primary focus, which means I use quite a bit of sl, in a lot of different ways, including search to do far more. Neither wrong, or right, better, or wrong, they just are how we use sl.  I don't expect that you'll know or understand how the programming, or as you have pointed out numerous times over the years, the geeky/nerdy side of things in sl work. But, plenty of people on these forums DO actually understand it. I don't know why it's so difficult for you to accept that, lol.

Again, I already stated that about the map. The land list of names will likely have more to do with a specific location's performance, which can be affected by the uplift (as in, overall loading slower, not that the queries of object owners themselves are difficult or even slower at base function), than the map which should NOT have been affected by the uplift in the same way. The fact that LL can neither pinpoint the actual problem, nor offer an ETA on its fix, even still, indicates to me that there is more to the map issues. But, again, I don't expect you to understand, or even want to understand, the more technical side of things.  I just wish you didn't deny they existed even before the uplift and will continue to exist after until LL gets to the root of the actual problems. Simply saying the cloud has caused everything, or made everything worse, is no solution and not even true in many cases.

I have no idea what the hell you're talking about here. I didn't mention anything about edit, or an edit window. Maybe you need to go back and read what you quoted. 

No, it's not a new issue. Deny it all you want, you'll still be wrong on the matter. It's a very old issue and hasn't been made any worse, or any better, by the uplift. The latter is why people take more issue with it now than before, because it was assumed, wrongly or rightly, by some that it would get better. It hasn't gotten better in years, it has nothing to do with the uplift. It's an ongoing issue that's probably going to keep getting worse until LL fixes it. 

 

This is a strange comment. It doesn't matter whether you have a primary focus (debatable in fact for me) or whether you have a more catholic search pattern (debatable for you). Search is still broken and still returning too many replies on exact name searches. The end.

It has been broken in this particular way for at least 6 weeks. It was not broken in this way previously, although in 2018 it was. I use it every day. That's how I know. There is the overall dysfunction it has when the Lindens moved from Viewer 1 to Viewer 2 and put in GSA -- so I'm told. But that's not the point. The point is that it stop behaving with precision that it had prior to 6 weeks ago.

Since the Lindens can't pinpoint the exact problem with the map tiles, it's perfectly fine to note that it may be related to the uplift, since that's when it began breaking, and now is thoroughly broken. The map wasn't broken in these ways before the uplift. This curious unwillingness to blame the uplift for anything, just because you imagine some people blame it for everything, isn't scientific. It's reasonable to suspect broken map tiles are related to the uplift.

I have to laugh out loud about the edit window. Again, your reading is too literal and immersed in your own keyhole understanding of these issues. You've claimed I blame everything on the uplight. I've merely pointed out that the edit window, one of my chief complaints for years, is not something I would blame on the uplift, it is obviously unrelated. It's about interface design.

Group problems of delayed chat, the inability to get names on an exact search -- these were long before the uplift. But *not loading at all* is chronic now and could well be related to the uplift, as it seems to affect loading in general. Again, it is perfectly reasonable and logical to posit that the uplift could be to blame.

I wish the Lindens hadn't been so aggressive in destroying the old servers. 

I'd like to hear from the non-regulars on their experiences.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

2 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I wish the Lindens hadn't been so aggressive in destroying the old servers. 

 

the way it sounded to me, is they ended their floor lease and needed to be out by a certain date, so pushed for uplift to complete, which is was completed and they had sold most of their old hardware to another company to dispose of, so things were in motion way before maybe even unlift even started,   but as with every new product, every company has ever tried, it's trial and error,  they just have to tinker and code and fix the issues, this will take time,  this is not a magic carpet right where suddenly you snap your fingers and everything works like it should.

[Prokofy Neva]

1 hour ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

the way it sounded to me, is they ended their floor lease and needed to be out by a certain date, so pushed for uplift to complete, which is was completed and they had sold most of their old hardware to another company to dispose of, so things were in motion way before maybe even unlift even started,   but as with every new product, every company has ever tried, it's trial and error,  they just have to tinker and code and fix the issues, this will take time,  this is not a magic carpet right where suddenly you snap your fingers and everything works like it should.

Second Life has never been a magic carpet ride, bigmoe.

Close your eyes...

 

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's not just People that is broken but Places.

I don't use places on the website so I can only speak to what I do use.  I use firestorm so it's a non-issue when I'm inworld.  

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I wish the Lindens hadn't been so aggressive in destroying the old servers. 

It was Bulldozer Linden did it.

[Silent Mistwalker]

On 1/27/2021 at 5:40 AM, Ardy Lay said:

I blame UDP.  It gets lost in the cloud and seeds precipitation then everything gets mushy.

[Tari Landar]

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

I would put a link to Jethro Tull's "Thick as a brick", only there's a chance I would get misinterpreted so I won't.

 

 

[bigmoe Whitfield]

9 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Second Life has never been a magic carpet ride, bigmoe.

Close your eyes...

 

heh prok,  you can just call me moe

[Prokofy Neva]

13 hours ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

I would put a link to Jethro Tull's "Thick as a brick", only there's a chance I would get misinterpreted so I won't.

 

 

I saw Jethro Tull live in concert. Did you?

It's not about me being dense or thick or somehow "not getting" some arcane techie point. Call me when you can read Doestoevsky in the original.

It's about me asking if the cloud is better -- was it really meant to make SL faster?

It's about me listing things that have gotten *worse* since the cloud, and obviously concluding that certain things like search or map tiles that involve addresses or data bases might indeed be related to the cloud.

If you'd all like to feel superior and show that this or that little avatar foot shadow issue is not related to the cloud, that's fine, but...

SL IS STILL NOT WORKING AS IT SHOULD, AND IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Wulfie Reanimator]

16 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's about me asking if the cloud is better -- was it really meant to make SL faster?

I don't recall if "cloud go faster" is something LL said, but it was definitely speculation and an observable thing us users were seeing, particularly with region crossing.

The unfortunate reality is that we can't know exactly what things are affected and how, since we're not privy to that information.

Some things are better (region crossing), some things are worse (marketplace delivery), and some things are correlated but not caused by "the cloud."

Websearch being worse or different is probably not caused by the uplift, because the uplift was specifically the sims moving over to AWS, all of the websites (MP and search) was already there for years, I believe. The reason it changed was probably because of the "code cleanup" LL made during the move.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I saw Jethro Tull live in concert. Did you?

No, although I am old enough to have done so.

[Tari Landar]

58 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

t's about me asking if the cloud is better -- was it really meant to make SL faster?

No, and how many times do you need people to tell you this wasn't the premise behind the move, even if it could be a potential effect of such a move?

59 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's about me listing things that have gotten *worse* since the cloud

And being wrong about some of those things, which were already as bad as they currently are before uplift took place (whether or not it was your personal, or even my personal, experience). 

59 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

SL IS STILL NOT WORKING AS IT SHOULD

Not one single person has ever denied that, quite the opposite, but you missed every single one of those points, hence, kretecake. 

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

AND IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER.

That was your interpretation, but not the main purpose for moving to the cloud. Making certain things more efficient doesn't necessarily always equate with better overall performance. It's an assumption people made, and apparently still make, when they don't want people talking about the "techie" side of things because they haven't the inclination, ability, desire, whatever have you, to listen or understand that side of things. You don't like that side of things, you've never made any bones about that, but continuing to poo-poo it away won't make the things people have said any less true.

[LittleMe Jewell]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

AND IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER.

I don't recall LL ever saying that SL would be better in any way due to the cloud uplift project -- though many others did speculate such.

The primary reason LL went to the cloud is because they were out of space in their data center and couldn't add any more equipment.  They would have had to lease a new location in order to add more servers.   

 

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I don't recall LL ever saying that SL would be better in any way due to the cloud uplift project -- though many others did speculate such.

The primary reason LL went to the cloud is because they were out of space in their data center and couldn't add any more equipment.  They would have had to lease a new location in order to add more servers.   

 

I thought of more like when you move to a new house.  You've packed all your stuff and all the boxes are in the correct rooms but it still takes time to get things in order.  Your stuff isn't going to fit exactly as it did in your previous home so it's trial and error finding the right spot.  It might somewhat the same with LL.  All their stuff is in the cloud and now it's just a matter of finding where it works best and tweaking it so it fits.

Edited January 29, 2021 by RowanMinx

[Gage Wirefly]

12 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I don't recall LL ever saying that SL would be better in any way due to the cloud uplift project -- though many others did speculate such.

The primary reason LL went to the cloud is because they were out of space in their data center and couldn't add any more equipment.  They would have had to lease a new location in order to add more servers.   

 

I would surmise the primary reason for moving to the cloud was due to the sale. It unhitched SL from the server farm they owned and moved it into the cloud for the new owners.  It's really the only logical reason I can come up with for the move.  If things change in the future, this is an easy way to pull the plug without a lot of fuss. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

7 minutes ago, Gage Wirefly said:

I would surmise the primary reason for moving to the cloud was due to the sale. It unhitched SL from the server farm they owned and moved it into the cloud for the new owners.  It's really the only logical reason I can come up with for the move.  If things change in the future, this is an easy way to pull the plug without a lot of fuss. 

I was under the impression that the Uplift project started long before the sale, though a sale was likely in the minds of upper management when the project started.  

They truly were out of room at their data center.  That is why they had to stop creating new regions until the cloud move completed.  New regions would require more servers, but they had no place to put new servers.