getting woke and SL

[Gage Wirefly]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

As a White girl in school I was more likely expected to succeed when compared to a Black girl, and given more assistance. This affected my future performance in school and my success later in life.  This is a privilege I experienced, which is ongoing in later adult life, that many Blacks did/do not receive.

So in essence you're telling me that nothing in your life you''ve gotten on your own merit, but rather your skin color? That's what I am getting from this statement.

[Gage Wirefly]

5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

As a White person, I am more likely given appropriate pain medication.  I don't like to be in pain so this is certainly an advantage.

Tests have shown that a high percentage of doctors more often evaluate Blacks as needing less pain medication for the same medical conditions.

Sources for this claim would be appreciated. We can all say anything on the internet .

[Luna Bliss]

30 minutes ago, Gage Wirefly said:

36 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

As a White girl in school I was more likely expected to succeed when compared to a Black girl, and given more assistance. This affected my future performance in school and my success later in life.  This is a privilege I experienced, which is ongoing in later adult life, that many Blacks did/do not receive.

So in essence you're telling me that nothing in your life you''ve gotten on your own merit, but rather your skin color? That's what I am getting from this statement.

No, I'm not saying that at all.  I'm only saying that I enjoyed advantages/privileges that many Blacks might not have experienced if we compare this identical experience (young children in school).  I had a high IQ and chose to work instead of look out the window, but when a child does not receive encouragement from significant others it has been proven that they are less likely to succeed in life.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

7 minutes ago, Gage Wirefly said:

12 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

As a White person, I am more likely given appropriate pain medication.  I don't like to be in pain so this is certainly an advantage.

Tests have shown that a high percentage of doctors more often evaluate Blacks as needing less pain medication for the same medical conditions.

Sources for this claim would be appreciated. We can all say anything on the internet .

This is the 3rd thread discussing these matters, and sources have been provided numerous times for many claims, so you can read sources there or look up the issue on Google.  I'm not in the mood to track this one down again. But Whites had a lot of strange perceptions of Blacks starting in slave times -- it was kind of an obsession to categorize how Blacks were different than Whites, and  these 'findings' were then frequently used as an excuse to justify superiority and slavery. A few of those perceptions regarding medical differences persist to this day, though fortunately few of the most bizarre ones did.

I think I can easily find a TED talk though, where a woman describes how her husband almost died because the doctors were fixated on testing him for AIDS (thought of as more likely causing his problems since he was Black) instead of testing him for other possible causes of his illness.  She finally intervened and said "I want you to test him for White people's diseases too!", and he was found to have lymphoma.

[Luna Bliss]

Along with the medical experience which nearly killed her husband she cites the experience of a girl in school -- I believe the girl was told she shouldn't go on to higher learning if I remember correctly, yet the girl managed to anyway and was highly successful:

 

[Luna Bliss]

42 minutes ago, Gage Wirefly said:

51 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

If I walk to the grocery store , cutting through yards as sidewalks aren't in front of all houses, as a White person I have less chance of being thought a criminal and so would be less likely to experience all the repercussions of walking while Black (being shot, death, going to jail).

This is a privilege Blacks don't enjoy, but as a White person I do have this privilege.

Have you actually tested this theory to see if it holds water? Please do that and report back.

There are numerous tests which demonstrate Blacks are more often viewed as criminal when compared to Whites. So a Black person walking down a street would be unfairly targeted compared to Whites, on average.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[FairreLilette]

35 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

There are numerous tests which demonstrate Blacks are more often viewed as criminal when compared to Whites. So a Black person walking down a street would be unfairly targeted compared to Whites, on average.

I shared I know a Black man personally who told me what happened to him when he was out walking at night looking for his keys and was hassled by the police.  Without his keys to get in his car he couldn't get away very quickly and the police were following him around as a suspected drug dealer.  The irony of this whole story is that he is a professional drug counselor, a person who helps people get off of drugs.  I wonder how many people in this thread believe if it were a white man walking around at night who had lost his keys that the white man would have been regarded a drug dealer, too?  I'd say, in regards to it being a white man, I doubt the police would have hassled the white man.  

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

as a White person, I am more likely given appropriate pain medication.  I don't like to be in pain so this is certainly an advantage.

Tests have shown that a high percentage of doctors more often evaluate Blacks as needing less pain medication for the same medical conditions.

As far as this, there is the opposite as well which was a prevalent thought of the WASP culture society and especially of white women that they are of 'delicate conditioning'.   Blacks and other people of color are not seen as those of delicate conditioning.   This "thought" of the white delicacy helped fuel slavery also in that it was thought a necessity for the delicate white people's survival.  I think you can find this stereotype of the "delicate white women" in the movie "A Streetcar Named Desire".   Another irony from the movie "A Streetcar Named Desire" is the lead female role's name is Blanche.  I believe blanche means white.  

Edited July 19, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Bree Giffen]

Marxists killed intellectuals, doctors, teachers, religious people of any faith. They burned all books, schools, libraries and hospitals. Not ideals but real actual behavior. I know a coworker who still remembers going fishing as a child, to live not for recreation, and saw bodies floating by from mass killing by the communists. 

[Luna Bliss]

55 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I shared I know a Black man personally who told me what happened to him when he was out walking at night looking for his keys and was hassled by the police.  Without his keys to get in his car he couldn't get away very quickly and the police were following him around as a suspected drug dealer.  The irony of this whole story is that he is a professional drug counselor, a person who helps people get off of drugs.  I wonder how many people in this thread believe if it were a white man walking around at night who had lost his keys that the white man would have been regarded a drug dealer, too?  I'd say, in regards to it being a white man, I doubt the police would have hassled the white man.  

As far as this, there is the opposite as well which was a prevalent thought of the WASP culture society and especially of white women that they are of 'delicate conditioning'.   Blacks and other people of color are not seen as those of delicate conditioning.   This "thought" of the white delicacy helped fuel slavery also in that it was thought a necessity for the delicate white people's survival.  I think you can find this stereotype of the "delicate white women" in the movie "A Streetcar Named Desire".   Another irony from the movie "A Streetcar Named Desire" is the lead female role's name is Blanche.  I believe blanche means white.  

Great story. If only others believed these experiences Black people tell us so easily. Instead, we too often hear a response like "well, he was wearing a hoodie and so looked dangerous", or "he shouldn't have been out late at night in the neighborhood", blah blah blah on and on.....they'll believe anything except the reality that he was most likely hassled by the police because he was seen as criminal due to the color of his skin.

That stereotype of the "delicate white woman".....a demeaning stereotype used to oppress white women as it assumes they need men to take care of them in ways they don't need PLUS it's used to keep Black women as workhorses in house and field because they are not like white woman and 'super strong'...  lol -- a double-duty stereotype!    This article gives some insight as to how the stereotype developed  in the time period before the Civil War:

 Home Sweet Home: Gender in the Antebellum household:   https://cwnc.omeka.chass.ncsu.edu/exhibits/show/protect/1/call

"The Confederate cause capitalized on gender ideology to call soldiers to war. Historian Robert Westbrook argues that white women became “objects of obligation” in the Confederate call to the war. [1] More than slavery or states' rights, white men went to war to protect white women. As one North Carolina colonel stated, “So long as we have such wives, mothers and sister to fight for so long will this struggle continue until finally our freedom will be acknowledged.” [2] White women soon became the center of the call to war.  McCurry argues that protection of white women has two parts: spatial and sexual. Spatial protection included home and hearth, and sexual protection included purity and chastity. The Cause called upon white men to protect white women through military service."

I like the poem by Sojourner Truth which addresses some of the issues related to the 'delicate white woman' during that time period"

         AIN'T I A WOMAN?

              by Sojourner Truth

                  Delivered 1851 at the Women's Convention in Akron, Ohio

 

Well, children, where there is so much racket there must be something out of kilter. I think that 'twixt the negroes of the South and the women at the North, all talking about rights, the white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all this here talking about?

That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman?

Then they talk about this thing in the head; what's this they call it? That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negroes' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?

Then that little man in black there, he says women can't have as much rights as men, 'cause Christ wasn't a woman! Where did your Christ come from? Where did your Christ come from? From God and a woman! Man had nothing to do with Him.

If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back , and get it right side up again! And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them.

Obliged to you for hearing me, and now old Sojourner ain't got nothing more to say.

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

27 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Marxists killed intellectuals, doctors, teachers, religious people of any faith. They burned all books, schools, libraries and hospitals. Not ideals but real actual behavior. I know a coworker who still remembers going fishing as a child, to live not for recreation, and saw bodies floating by from mass killing by the communists. 

Marxism is actually just a system of economics.  Others have altered the system as Marx envisioned it and used it for both good and horrific purposes. People propose these changes and alter it to suit what they see as the best way to structure the world economically all the time. Communism is a political system which used tenants of Marxism to try and enact its vision for the world.

* Notions of Communism were around way before Marx came along, although many cite Marx as the father of communism, especially in various right-wing articles that try to scare people away from anything that doesn't let Capitalism reign supreme.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[FairreLilette]

35 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Marxists killed intellectuals, doctors, teachers, religious people of any faith. They burned all books, schools, libraries and hospitals. Not ideals but real actual behavior. I know a coworker who still remembers going fishing as a child, to live not for recreation, and saw bodies floating by from mass killing by the communists. 

There have been murders and killings all over this planet, but here we've been examining mostly those that happened in Europe and The Americas.

The 20th Century saw horrible wars and murder and ethnic cleansing but it was going on in Europe for millennia.  

Just look at just one excerpt about Gypsies.  If you read the whole Wiki on the torture and brutality of Gypsies, it makes me want to throw up.  I can only say I hope the next millennia will be different but it won't if we don't stand up and do something about it now.  

And, if you read the below about Gypsies, what about the countless others of types of people and/or religions and/or political or economic theories who've committed atrocious murders and torture.  They all have, Bree.  They all have.  All our ancestors.   Looking to the past won't really help us unless we can change the future.  Another irony, is the Gypsies are the Aryans.  This is what Hitler wanted, a perfected Aryan race.  How was Hilter going to achieve a perfected Aryan race by killing the Aryans?   And, also the Gypsies are Christian.  The Dutch murdered them saying they were heathens.  

GYPSIES

During the latter part of the 17th century, around the Franco-Dutch War, both France and Holland needed thousands of men to fight. Some recruitment took the form of rounding up vagrants and the poor to work the galleys and provide the armies' labour force. With this background, Romanis were targets of both the French and the Dutch.

After the wars, and into the first decade of the 18th century, Romanis were slaughtered with impunity throughout Holland. Romanis, called ‘heiden’ by the Dutch, wandered throughout the rural areas of Europe and became the societal pariahs of the age. Heidenjachten, translated as "heathen hunt" happened throughout Holland in an attempt to eradicate them.^[182]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

Edited July 19, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, Gage Wirefly said:

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

As a White person, I am more likely given appropriate pain medication.  I don't like to be in pain so this is certainly an advantage.

Tests have shown that a high percentage of doctors more often evaluate Blacks as needing less pain medication for the same medical conditions.

Sources for this claim would be appreciated. We can all say anything on the internet .

Found one source...didn't need to go all the way back to historical records:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/04/04/do-blacks-feel-less-pain-than-whites-their-doctors-may-think-so/

[Bree Giffen]

@FairreLilette The difference between me bringing up the Marxists and you bringing up the killing of gypsies is that college kids aren't saying, "Gee, killing the gypsies is a great idea!" Anyways, we should stop talking about this because it's too intellectual and I don't want to get killed by the communists. Back to the topic of BLM please.

[Luna Bliss]

45 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Marxists killed

Here we see how W.E.B Du Bois is interpreting Marxism in the early 20th century. Not sure which parts carried through to the way various Black people envision Marxism today. 

But you can see here, it has nothing to do with murdering people:

http://www.webdubois.org/dbMNP.html

Capitalism has major flaws. It keeps classes of people at the bottom in poverty while funneling excess resources to the top. Capitalism also has major resets where it crashes like in 2008 where the bottom classes end up losing their resources disproportionately.  We definitely need either a new system or a severe restructuring of Capitalism so that the poor (usually POC) don't end up getting the short end of the stick.  I'm not sure which tenants of Marxism, original or in a modified state, should be a part of a new way to structure economic realities, but it's interesting to explore.

[FairreLilette]

2 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

@FairreLilette The difference between me bringing up the Marxists and you bringing up the killing of gypsies is that college kids aren't saying, "Gee, killing the gypsies is a great idea!" Anyways, we should stop talking about this because it's too intellectual and I don't want to get killed by the communists. Back to the topic of BLM please.

Okay, no problem.  

[Bree Giffen]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Here we see how W.E.B Du Bois is interpreting Marxism in the early 20th century. Not sure which parts carried through to the way various Black people envision Marxism today. 

But you can see here, it has nothing to do with murdering people:

http://www.webdubois.org/dbMNP.html

Capitalism has major flaws. It keeps classes of people at the bottom in poverty while funneling excess resources to the top. Capitalism also has major resets where it crashes like in 2008 where the bottom classes end up losing their resources disproportionately.  We definitely need either a new system or a severe restructuring of Capitalism so that the poor (usually POC) don't end up getting the short end of the stick.  I'm not sure which tenants of Marxism, original or in a modified state, should be a part of a new way to structure economic realities, but it's interesting to explore.

Tell that to the millions of dead people. 

[Luna Bliss]

9 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Anyways, we should stop talking about this because it's too intellectual and I don't want to get killed by the communists. Back to the topic of BLM please.

The poverty endured by POC compared to Whites is central to the discussion of BLM.  Additionally, the misunderstanding of Marxism expressed here is used to discredit their struggle for equality, to paint the entire movement as bad.   So we have never left the topic of BLM.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

29 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

32 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Here we see how W.E.B Du Bois is interpreting Marxism in the early 20th century. Not sure which parts carried through to the way various Black people envision Marxism today. 

But you can see here, it has nothing to do with murdering people:

http://www.webdubois.org/dbMNP.html

Capitalism has major flaws. It keeps classes of people at the bottom in poverty while funneling excess resources to the top. Capitalism also has major resets where it crashes like in 2008 where the bottom classes end up losing their resources disproportionately.  We definitely need either a new system or a severe restructuring of Capitalism so that the poor (usually POC) don't end up getting the short end of the stick.  I'm not sure which tenants of Marxism, original or in a modified state, should be a part of a new way to structure economic realities, but it's interesting to explore.

Tell that to the millions of dead people. 

Oh you mean the dead people (40,000 yearly in the US) who die from lack of health insurance?

Or perhaps the murdered Natives when Capitalism spread like a plague across the land?

Maybe the slaves who died in transit to the US and never even made it to the US to be abused by Capitalism as it used every means it could to profit while ignoring human rights.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Bree Giffen]

I won this debate on Marxism! Let's return to BLM. Thanks.

[Luna Bliss]

10 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

@FairreLilette The difference between me bringing up the Marxists and you bringing up the killing of gypsies is that college kids aren't saying, "Gee, killing the gypsies is a great idea!" Anyways, we should stop talking about this because it's too intellectual and I don't want to get killed by the communists. Back to the topic of BLM please.

College kids aren't saying we should kill anyone.  You are misinterpreting Marxism and so imagine they are saying that.

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

I won this debate on Marxism!

A debate on Marxism would take many, many pages of discussion....so can't see how you already won it.

Can you at least grasp that Marxism does not equal communism?

Edited July 19, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Janet Voxel]

3 hours ago, Gage Wirefly said:

Be flippant if you wish. Marxism is only about control and power, the rest is just fluff.

Yes I’m being flippant, because saying someone is a leftist, socialist, communist, Marxist, in this context is ridiculous.

Its been pointed out many, many times politics in the US is so screwed and have shifted so far to the right what is called a liberal would be a conservative anywhere else in the world. 

The sky isn’t going to fall and Bolsheviks aren’t going to come for the elites because people are protesting for equal rights and police and criminal justice reform.

[Arielle Popstar]

25 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

College kids aren't saying we should kill anyone.  You are misinterpreting Marxism and so imagine they are saying that.

But are college kids being taught what happened with the the 20th century experimentation with Marxism?

I like Peterson's thoughts on it:

 

[Janet Voxel]

If anything, the way millennials and generation Z are trending politically, they are already woke

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/01/17/generation-z-looks-a-lot-like-millennials-on-key-social-and-political-issues/

and that only means one thing, we’re heading for socialism.

There has to be something we can do about this...it’s gotta stop.

[FairreLilette]

51 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Can you at least grasp that Marxism does not equal communism?

What I was trying to say by showing Europe's history for the past several millennia is that all forms of government have been atrocious but that doesn't mean all are still the same either.

Plus, capitalism doesn't exist on it's own in America.  We have forms of socialism in our country too; the welfare system is one example.  However, this welfare system and unemployment, imo, are inadequate in the 21st Century as the job market has changed and we even have machines that are replacing certain jobs.

And, communistic countries have forms of capitalism in them especially China and Japan with their gifted ones in music such as C-Pop (Chinese Pop) and J-Pop (Japanese Pop) forms of music.  There are elitist communists too.   As a matter of fact, the "food" in the wet markets where it is suspected coronavirus may have started is not food for the poor, it is food for the wealthy who see certain "delicacies" a status symbol in Asia.  Your average working Chinese shop at modern grocery stores like we have in America; they cannot afford those kinds of "delicacies".  

Most capitalistic countries are really a mixture of systems.  

So, I don't really think any of it is necessary to bring into this discussion.  

Edited July 19, 2020 by FairreLilette