Janet Voxel Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 8 hours ago, Mollymews said: the whole thing with federal paramilitaries being deployed against citizens over the objections of the State Governor is a bit of a slippery slope. Given that it is within the power of a Sate Governor to call out the National Guard to assist local law enforcement should assistance be deemed necessary by the State government Very slippery. This is one of those things both sides can agree is wrong and has to stop, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/americas-interior-ministry/614389/ Quote For decades, conservative activists and leaders have warned that “jackbooted thugs” from the federal government were going to come to take away Americans’ civil rights with no due process and no recourse. Now they’re here—but they’re deployed by a staunchly right-wing president with strong conservative support. In Portland, Oregon, federal agents in military fatigues have for several days been patrolling the streets amid ongoing protests about police brutality. These forces, employed by the Department of Homeland Security, have snatched people off the streets of the city, refused to identify themselves, and detained people without charges. Ostensibly, they are present to protect federal buildings from protesters. In practice, they seem to be acting on a much wider mandate, either to suppress protests or (more cynically) to provoke confrontation on behalf of a flailing White House that sees it as electorally beneficial. These two articles take very different levels of 'excitement' to the same event: https://www.thedailybeast.com/federal-agents-beaten-back-into-portland-courthouse-by-2000-protesters-including-parent-groups https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2020/07/portland-protests-continue-for-54th-night-amid-controversy-surrounding-federal-officers-presence.html - In short, people moved in on the gestapo last night, and pushed them to the federal courthouse, and then a running back and forth happened with smaller groups after that. But the nature of things in Portland seems to have moved away from locals to direct engagement with Trump's Gestapo... One thing Trump has managed to do: He has successfully taken the movement away from Blacks and made it about himself... Edited July 21, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 18 hours ago, FairreLilette said: So, I am not with Luna's 50% tax rate. That's Luna, not me. The 50% number did not refer to tax brackets or the amount of taxes government should collect from us -- it referred to governmental expenditure in other wealthy nations -- those governments spend 50% of their budget on the public good such as health care, college, daycare, maternity leave, and more. But the US only spends 25%, leaving us without these important services such as universal health care unless we can afford to purchase them. As a result, 40,000 people die annually due to lack of health insurance, and the US now has 30% of Covid deaths with only 5% of the population (greater expenditure in public health could have mitigated this). Reliance on the free market to provide protective equipment and other resources needed to fight the virus failed miserably, while countries which had greater public health systems fared much better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said: On 7/19/2020 at 12:01 PM, Luna Bliss said: But if the Marxism of the 1900's is extremely dissimilar to the modified Marxism being proposed today as possible solutions for economic problems, Peterson equating the two as if Marxism is never modified throughout time, or implying the dangers are the same, is incorrect. So how is the new Marxism going to avoid the killing of millions to bring about the utopia promised? You're hoping the 1% will get woke and just voluntarily give away their riches to the poor? What are the differences between the Marxists of the past and the ones today? Marx did not advocate murdering people. Those Communists who did murder people used some of his economic theories in the process of structuring a part of their own regimes, but the economic theories of Marx, his critique of Capitalism and theories pointing to better ways to structure an economy did not mention murder! And nobody was murdered the last time Capitalism failed big time during the Great Depression era and policies changed to funnel more resources away from the wealthy, and the murder of any of the 1% would not be needed now either. I suggest reading about the New Deal and how Socialists and Communists of the day (much more visible in the 1930's) influenced policy to create sweeping changes. As Wolff said, the choice was for the obscene amount of wealth captured by the big corporations to be shared with the workers or risk the US becoming a Socialist country as was the case for many countries at that time. So taxes were raised on the wealthy (they paid 90% in some cases) while major benefits were enacted for workers -- Social Security, unemployment benefits, minimum wage and work hours in specific industries, and loads of other reforms:https://www.britannica.com/event/New-Deal#:~:text=Perhaps the most far-reaching programs of the entire,were also set in certain industries in 1938. Unfortunately a large percentage of these workers' rights were clawed back. Adjusted wages today are at 1978 levels, one in four kids goes to bed hungry, the middle class is hollowed out, people die due to lack of health insurance...on and on...our country is a mess. The problem is that we don't have the presence of Socialist & Communist groups as we did back then needed to effect change so that labor has more protection as opposed to corporations soaking up too many of the profits in society, and so we have no leverage, no way to bargain for change. The mobility of corporations that refuse to pay taxes is another major hurdle. Bernie Sanders was our hope, now gone, to allocate more resources to labor in a smoother, less destructive manner. But make no mistake about it, Capitalism is going to collapse again (some say it already has in the US due to Covid and the economic fallout) and changes will come. Edited July 21, 2020 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 56 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/americas-interior-ministry/614389/ These two articles take very different levels of 'excitement' to the same event: https://www.thedailybeast.com/federal-agents-beaten-back-into-portland-courthouse-by-2000-protesters-including-parent-groups https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2020/07/portland-protests-continue-for-54th-night-amid-controversy-surrounding-federal-officers-presence.html - In short, people moved in on the gestapo last night, and pushed them to the federal courthouse, and then a running back and forth happened with smaller groups after that. But the nature of things in Portland seems to have moved away from locals to direct engagement with Trump's Gestapo... One thing Trump has managed to do: He has successfully taken the movement away from Blacks and made it about himself... ...and this is just a warm up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick0678 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 8 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said: Someday when justice has returned... As long as your Police officers get trained by guys like this one don't expect much .. Happened to watch part of his speech in John Olivers show regarding police craziness in your country. You guys are training Police officers to become psychopaths actually. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairreLilette Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 10 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: The 50% number did not refer to tax brackets or the amount of taxes government should collect from us -- it referred to governmental expenditure in other wealthy nations -- those governments spend 50% of their budget on the public good such as health care, college, daycare, maternity leave, and more. But the US only spends 25%, leaving us without these important services such as universal health care unless we can afford to purchase them. As a result, 40,000 people die annually due to lack of health insurance, and the US now has 30% of Covid deaths with only 5% of the population (greater expenditure in public health could have mitigated this). Reliance on the free market to provide protective equipment and other resources needed to fight the virus failed miserably, while countries which had greater public health systems fared much better. I see, but it would think that other 25% would have to come from taxes unless you have a model of something else in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 15 hours ago, Nick0678 said: Exactly jf you have a look at Business Insider you will see that millionaires don't base their success on a specific country but more on their business strategies so many thousands of them simply migrate wherever they prefer. Which is why we shouldn't shop at Amazon & Walmart -- these people are hoarding a huge percentage of the wealth in America. Imagine if we purchased from smaller companies -- companies who actually paid taxes too! Companies owned by the workers who worked there instead of to the very top owners of a company. *remembers the new tablet I just ordered from Amazon..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, Nick0678 said: As long as your Police officers get trained by guys like this one don't expect much .. Happened to watch part of his speech in John Olivers show regarding police craziness in your country. You guys are training Police officers to become psychopaths actually. Crime is down though...surely this kind of policing is the cause for that, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said: 13 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: The 50% number did not refer to tax brackets or the amount of taxes government should collect from us -- it referred to governmental expenditure in other wealthy nations -- those governments spend 50% of their budget on the public good such as health care, college, daycare, maternity leave, and more. But the US only spends 25%, leaving us without these important services such as universal health care unless we can afford to purchase them. As a result, 40,000 people die annually due to lack of health insurance, and the US now has 30% of Covid deaths with only 5% of the population (greater expenditure in public health could have mitigated this). Reliance on the free market to provide protective equipment and other resources needed to fight the virus failed miserably, while countries which had greater public health systems fared much better. I see, but it would think that other 25% would have to come from taxes unless you have a model of something else in mind. Not quite sure what you're implying here, but the US seems to spend so much of the taxes collected on the military (more than the next 9 countries combined) that there is not enough left for the public good. We only spend 25% on the public good whereas other wealthy countries spend 50%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairreLilette Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, Nick0678 said: Happened to watch part of his speech in John Olivers show regarding police craziness in your country. You guys are training Police officers to become psychopaths actually. It would appear so in my sister's and nephew's case that it was a very mentally unstable man who beat up a kid and his Mom but I don't want to reiterate the story again of the out of uniform police officer who beat up my nephew and sister on their own property and in his own words stated he did so because my nephew was playing loud music. My nephew had to have re-constructive surgery. My sister won the lawsuit but then ended up in the hospital for eight years with a nervous breakdown. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairreLilette Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Not quite sure what you're implying here, but the US seems to spend so much of the taxes collected on the military (more than the next 9 countries combined) that there is not enough left for the public good. We only spend 25% on the public good whereas other wealthy countries spend 50%. I think we have crossed wires here. When you said 50%, I thought that is what most countries taxes are, while here in the U.S. they are about 25%, a little lower for rich people, maybe 23%. So, I thought you meant to raise the taxes to 50% here in the U.S. Yes, I believe so too we are spending too much on military. We could use some of that military money to help America get rid of the drugs instead of being in the Middle East. How we will get to health care for all, I'm not sure. I'm just waiting it out. I think Biden will win though. Edited July 21, 2020 by FairreLilette 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 22 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said: I'd say you would have been faster off refuting his points rather then finding articles that attack the man. Or is that the only argument you can bring to the table? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nick0678 said: As long as your Police officers get trained by guys like this one don't expect much .. Happened to watch part of his speech in John Olivers show regarding police craziness in your country. You guys are training Police officers to become psychopaths actually. Yeah I've seen that. You know... we don't even train our soldiers like that. This might shock people but military soldier are NOT trained to kill. We're trained to disable, stop, wound... There's a very basic cold logic to it: a wounded enemy takes 3 people off the battlefield: the injured, someone to take them off, and a medic that has to be supplied to aid them. A dead soldier only removes one. So killing is only useful for an emotional self sense of murderous vindication if you have lost sight of your actual mission... Furthermore, killing tends to enrage the enemy - hardening resistance... People fight much more intensely when no quarter is given. In fact every level of stakes you raise, your opponent will usually match... which is why soldiers these days also often try to focus on what they call 'hearts and minds' - they're not good at it, but they try... which is a step above American Police... I'm reminded of police I have seen in places like Korea, Mexico, and Peru... Korean police operate tourist help stands, smile at you, and if they're chasing you down it's most likely to practice some English phrases like "nice to meet you", or hand your a brochure of good places to eat nearby for people not used to local cuisine. They're usually unarmed. That said I've walked right up to the front door of the presidential house and asked the 'guy in shades and a dark suit with an obvious gun' for directions and gotten a tourist infotainment show out of him after being told I wasn't actually supposed to be in that area... Meanwhile a few miles away the US Embassy in Seoul looks like it was airlifted out of Iraq... Mexican cops walk around with literal machine guns strapped on. I've seen them often escorted by a second cop with a full bullet proof tower shield. And I've seen them sitting behind sandbags operating a tripod mounted machine gun pointed right into the heart of traffic in the middle of an 'island' center of the road... Mexican Cops, it should be noted, actually need that firepower as they're in a literal war with drug cartels... so you'd expect them to be super trigger happy... - Yet... again... they give tourist directions, smile at you, and talk to you like your friends. I've watched a white Mexican cop talk to a full blood Indian guy like it was two guys chatting about good food. Peruvian cops, look more like American cops, but are basically just neutral. No mean stares, and you can talk to them - but they don't act like tourist guides. They just... do their jobs and don't hassle you... Edited July 21, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairreLilette Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 49 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Which is why we shouldn't shop at Amazon & Walmart -- these people are hoarding a huge percentage of the wealth in America. Imagine if we purchased from smaller companies -- companies who actually paid taxes too! Companies owned by the workers who worked there instead of to the very top owners of a company. *remembers the new tablet I just ordered from Amazon..... Just out of curiosity about your tablet, did you even compare prices with Ebay? Ebay does have very good deals and many deals will even beat Amazon. I got a new cooling unit and a new coffee pot with some of my stimulus money, the prices beat Amazon and I am a very satisfied customer with Ebay for 20+ years. But, again, out of curiosity, do you even price compare with Ebay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick0678 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said: This might shock people but military soldier are NOT trained to kill. We're trained to disable, stop, wound... I totally understand what you are saying due to having military training myself back in my days and being taught to be crew in a tank doesn't mean we weren't also being used as foot patrol and guarding our borders as well. If we were trained according to this morons ideas now we would be at war with almost every country that we share borders with when things went wrong. This guy is a lunatic. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 6 hours ago, FairreLilette said: Just out of curiosity about your tablet, did you even compare prices with Ebay? Ebay does have very good deals and many deals will even beat Amazon. I got a new cooling unit and a new coffee pot with some of my stimulus money, the prices beat Amazon and I am a very satisfied customer with Ebay for 20+ years. But, again, out of curiosity, do you even price compare with Ebay? Whether you buy a kindle from Amazon or from Ebay you are still supporting Amazon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick0678 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 7 hours ago, Janet Voxel said: Crime is down though...surely this kind of policing is the cause for that, right? I don't know it's still way too high compared to European Union and we are not 1 country here, each one has different laws and different police policies.. Still tho we are 450 million people , you guys there are 330 and you have many more murders than us. Maybe it's time to reconsider your "right to have a gun". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Nick0678 said: I don't know it's still way too high compared to European Union and we are not 1 country here, each one has different laws and different police policies.. Still tho we are 450 million people , you guys there are 330 and you have many more murders than us. Maybe it's time to reconsider your "right to have a gun". Are you saying aggressive, military styled policing isn't really effective particularly when compared to other countries or Europe as a whole? But surely, if you broke it down by countries in the EU you would get different results. That can't be right...when comparing it to say Spain or France separately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick0678 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said: But surely, if you broke it down by countries in the EU you would get different results. That can't be right...when comparing it to say Spain or France separately. France Spain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyssa Greymoon Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 23 minutes ago, Nick0678 said: France Spain And those are both countries where owning a firearm is legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nika Talaj Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 8 hours ago, Janet Voxel said: ...and this is just a warm up. Precisely. What's happening in Portland is not really about Portland. From the start, the federales have been using techniques that were not required in a town that was seeing less than 50 protesters acting out at a single property after midnight. https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/07/feds-conduct-surveillance-from-downtown-courthouse-analyze-social-media-videos-post-undercover-agents-in-crowds-records-show.html Portland is being used as a training exercise. Despite the fact that the federal forces' heavyhanded presence has resulted in the previously dwindling nightly protests now swelling to thousands of participants, including many white suburbanites, it will be deemed a success by the henchmen running the show, because their forces got to work the kinks out of their intimidation techniques. It's been effective, in a way. Local Nextdoor moderators appear to be removing any thread about policing; local journalists who were clearly wearing PRESS shirts and credentials are routinely threatened and, in at least one case, shot with a "less lethal" weapon. This deployment is not about crime. It is about voter suppression in Democratic-led urban centers. The Lincoln Project leaders are not angels. But they are right about the ultimate aim of these deployments. https://lincolnproject.us/video/how-it-starts/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick0678 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Just now, Janet Voxel said: And those are both countries where owning a firearm is legal? That is why i said reconsider.. European Union has strict policies on firearms and even before we all make the Union we had guns banned, which means the use of guns is illegal. Unless licensed for hobbies / hunting and that's another reason why our police officers are very restricted when it comes to use their guns instead of acting like psychopaths when they stop you to check your seat belt or whatever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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