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But in SL....   maybe they do?

I've been skirting around this issue for a minute, but I'm going to bring it right to the forefront for @Kristin Linden and the governance people.  In the photography threads, pictures that inclu

My Father was born in 1920 and served in the Navy from 1936 to 1947 (yes, he lied about his age to enlist) and spent most of that time in the South Pacific. His first introduction to Polynesian cultur

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3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

If one is unable to develop their own worldview ...

Sexually implied nipples, either female or male, are not part of that. I think we are talking context here. It' s obvious Lindenlab does not want to OVER-sexualize SL to the outside world.

 

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1 minute ago, TDD123 said:
6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

If one is unable to develop their own worldview ...

Sexually implied nipples, either female or male, are not part of that. I think we are talking context here. It' s obvious Lindenlab does not want to OVER-sexualize SL to the outside world.

Yes they have to adapt to the culture they exist in.

So while I think it's interesting to discuss what's fair, I don't think LL can really change their policy at this point, at least not much.

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45 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

It' s obvious Lindenlab does not want to OVER-sexualize SL to the outside world.

I think this is probably what it comes down to. Ayela I think hinted at this in her initial post here too. SL already struggles with a whole lot of bad PR about sex in-world -- most, but by no means all of it, ill-informed. I think that their default position is that anything that can be read as overtly sexual will, if public, contribute to that perception. The fact that we're arguing here that women's breasts are not, by default definition, sexual doesn't, in that sense, make a difference.

Of course, that doesn't explain the overt sexual content that is permitted in the picture threads and elsewhere, nor does it explain why, as Seicher points out, the feeds are replete with explicit sexualized nudity.

So, hypocrisy? Or just plain laziness / lack of resources and time to do anything about it.

What I imagine we'll get is an anodyne near-boiler plate response from LL, along the lines of "We've reviewed our current policies . . . blah blah . . . forum upon to general public . . . blah blah . . . "General" rating . . . blah blah . . . other places to post nudity or sexualized pictures . . . blah blah . . . have decided to continue to abide by our current policies."

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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1 hour ago, Tattooshop said:

Too progressive IMO...

I imagine women boxers fighting topless, if that goes on... :D

Why then you wear clothes at all? Go naked! I dont mind. lol :D

 

Naked women boxers I can't get on board with, but wrestling, maybe so. Especially if mud is involved. Or jello. 

I may have missed my real life vocation

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17 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What I imagine we'll get is an anodyne near-boiler plate response from LL, along the lines of "We've reviewed our current policies . . . blah blah . . . forum upon to general public . . . blah blah . . . "General" rating . . . blah blah . . . other places to post nudity or sexualized pictures . . . blah blah . . . have decided to continue to abide by our current policies."

Ooooooh! I just learned you are a Linden in their legal department! Neat! I thought I recognized the writing style!

(Note to the sarcasm impaired: kidding sarcasm not mean sarcasm)

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23 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So, hypocrisy? Or just plain laziness / lack of resources and time to do anything about it.

There is another.

 

We could end this discussion and slap a 16+ label onto SL.

 

You know why that won' t happen.

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1 hour ago, Tattooshop said:

Too progressive IMO...

I imagine women boxers fighting topless, if that goes on... :D

Why then you wear clothes at all? Go naked! I dont mind. lol :D

 

Couldn't do it topless where we were. Sorry. Have to use your imagination ;) Just to illustrate why wrestling is better than boxing.

 

mud wrestling.jpg

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I admittedly started this topic half seriously, and half tongue-in-cheek, but now after seeing the attitude of many towards the poor female nipple, I'm completely serious. 

Here is the definition of a nipple from Merriam-Webster - "The protuberance of a mammary gland upon which in the female the lactiferous ducts open and from which milk is drawn."

What is sexual about that? Biologically speaking, the nipple is not genitalia. 

Nipples weren't considered indecent until the Victorian era in the 1800s. A woman riding a horse side-saddle was also considered indecent, but we've all moved on from that, haven't we? Oh, let us not forget that it was illegal for men to go topless in the US until the 1930s. What changed it? Men protesting the right to swim topless.

There are cultures (and religions... in fact, the world's second largest religion) that consider it indecent for a woman to go about with her head uncovered. Burkas, niqabs, and hijabs, anyone? There are states in the US where a man can walk around shirtless, and the worst thing that will happen is they get denied seating in a restaurant, but a woman, if convicted, can face three years of prison time for daring to not cover up her breast. How is anyone not outraged by the sheer hypocrisy of that? 

The truth, though, is that 33 of the 50 states have either passed laws that provide women the opportunity to go topless, or never actually criminalized it in the first place, and some of those states are the most conservative in the country. Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, freaking Kansas - home of the Westboro Baptist Church! My own state, Kentucky, West Virginia. 

As far as internationally, for the most part, Europe doesn't really give a damn. Canada is cool with it. Australia says it's okay, as does New Zealand. India is groovy with it only on beaches, but they're also the country that has been known for force rape victims to marry their rapist, so whatever. South Africa is behind the times, too, but then they're still reeling from apartheid and being generally racist AF. Then there are all the Muslim countries where women are horribly oppressed in really foul ways, so they can bite me. Japan seems to have somehow managed to made nudity completely normal and completely indecent at the same time. Oddly enough, China doesn't seem to have any laws making it illegal for a woman to be topless, though it is apparently considered scandalous for anyone, male or female, to go topless and people are so outraged when they see a topless person, they'll gather around them - and take pictures so they can look at them over and over and over again, being "scandalized". 

The truth of the matter is that a good portion of the world, and the United States, and California, understand that the bare nipple, regardless of gender, is no big deal, and the laws are catching up to that attitude. The tide is turning. 

Linden Lab will lose nothing by decriminalizing nipples. Few people would even notice a difference. I also understand if this isn't something they even want to consider at this time, especially considering the absolute crap-show some people turned this thread into. If female nipples were allowed, the faux-outrage would just be a stupid headache, and Governance has enough of those to deal with right now. 

 

 

 

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My Father was born in 1920 and served in the Navy from 1936 to 1947 (yes, he lied about his age to enlist) and spent most of that time in the South Pacific. His first introduction to Polynesian culture was via a topless teenage girl who emerged from the ocean depths to greet the dingy he and his crew-mates (including the skipper) were rowing ashore during the supply chain buildup in the Pacific. Though still a teen himself, he was quickly able to discern that the girl's advance was not sexual. The skipper, married and in his 30s was able to quickly make the same judgment, but the rest of the crew had a more difficult time of it. Over subsequent years, Dad's curiosity about, and respect for Polynesian culture endeared him to the locals, who often invited him into their homes to share meals. While his ship mates were cultivating an appreciation for Polynesian women, Dad cultivated an appreciation for Polynesian culture and cuisine.

Surely a young man at sea for weeks, solely in the company of other men, could be excused for sexualizing virtually anything. Why didn't Dad? When I hear people in this thread say that women's nipples are sexual in nature, but men's are not, and that this is a result of natural differences in the genders, I must either conclude that they are unwilling or unable to see and overcome their own cultural conditioning, or that I am the blessed offspring of a truly superior human being.

As I was approaching puberty, Dad told me, approximately, "If the men around you can't see girl bits without succumbing to their boy bits, then they should either look away or wear blindfolds. Their imagined inability to control themselves is not a cross that women should bear."

So, those of you who think there's a "natural" reason to hide women's nipples might be right. But the natural reason is your own, possibly willful, ignorance. So, either wear a blindfold or open your eyes and grow up.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
Added "topless" cuz that's an important detail?
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1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

My Father was born in 1920 and served in the Navy from 1936 to 1947 (yes, he lied about his age to enlist) and spent most of that time in the South Pacific. His first introduction to Polynesian culture was via a topless teenage girl who emerged from the ocean depths to greet the dingy he and his crew-mates (including the skipper) were rowing ashore during the supply chain buildup in the Pacific. Though still a teen himself, he was quickly able to discern that the girl's advance was not sexual. The skipper, married and in his 30s was able to quickly make the same judgment, but the rest of the crew had a more difficult time of it. Over subsequent years, Dad's curiosity about, and respect for Polynesian culture endeared him to the locals, who often invited him into their homes to share meals. While his ship mates were cultivating an appreciation for Polynesian women, Dad cultivated an appreciation for Polynesian culture and cuisine.

Surely a young man at sea for weeks, solely in the company of other men, could be excused for sexualizing virtually anything. Why didn't Dad? When I hear people in this thread say that women's nipples are sexual in nature, but men's are not, and that this is a result of natural differences in the genders, I must either conclude that they are unwilling or unable to see and overcome their own cultural conditioning, or that I am the blessed offspring of a truly superior human being.

As I was approaching puberty, Dad told me, approximately, "If the men around you can't see girl bits without succumbing to their boy bits, then they should either look away or wear blindfolds. Their imagined inability to control themselves is not a cross that women should bear."

So, those of you who think there's a "natural" reason to hide women's nipples might be right. But the natural reason is your own, possibly willful, ignorance. So, either wear a blindfold or open your eyes and grow up.

Oh, you reminded me. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Marigold Devin said:

Oh, you reminded me. 

Can there be any excuse for a head of state to be amazed by the customs and culture of a place he visits? Dad had no staff to brief him on what to expect, yet at the age of 18 or so he figured out something that completely baffles your Prince.

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Just now, Madelaine McMasters said:

Can there be any excuse for a head of state to be amazed by the customs and culture of a place he visits? Dad had no staff to brief him on what to expect, yet at the age of 18 or so he figured out something that completely baffles your Prince.

I truly have no words, Maddie. Our Prince still has a lot to learn.

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On 5/17/2020 at 12:34 PM, TDD123 said:

We could end this discussion and slap a 16+ label onto SL.

You know why that won' t happen.

Uh...have you not been paying attention?  This has been the case since they deleted Teen SL.

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I think Maddy and others have made a great case for the whole thing being a product of Western culture.  Whether or not women's nipples (or men's nipples, or any body part on anyone) are suitable or not suitable for public viewing is a cultural thing, and not a law of nature.  As such, it's not really amenable to logical discussion.  With the exception of the rare rational and adaptable individual like Maddy's dad, people are going to prefer whatever cultural norm they were raised under, and (however illogically) argue in favor of it.

Debating whether or not LL's policies re. nipples is good or bad or needs to be changed falls into the "pointless" category.  As pointed out several pages back, they're just following current American conventions.

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4 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Debating whether or not LL's policies re. nipples is good or bad or needs to be changed falls into the "pointless" category.  As pointed out several pages back, they're just following current American conventions.

 

To paraphrase famous Dutch painter Mondriaan, "Convention, a kind of memory, is the greatest impediment towards progress."

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On 5/17/2020 at 10:48 PM, Madelaine McMasters said:

As I was approaching puberty, Dad told me, approximately, "If the men around you can't see girl bits without succumbing to their boy bits, then they should either look away or wear blindfolds. Their imagined inability to control themselves is not a cross that women should bear."

 

When I first read it, I was greatly annoyed by a stanza in William Wordsworth's poem, Expostulation and Reply

"The eye--it cannot choose but see;
We cannot bid the ear be still;
Our bodies feel, where'er they be,
Against or with our will."

Typical male, 18th century thinking. Because there's no law that says you MUST leer, or that you MUST get aroused, or that you MUST sexualize. That's all just between your own ears! Don't blame nature. Just take responsibility for your own actions!

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9 hours ago, kiramanell said:

 

When I first read it, I was greatly annoyed by a stanza in William Wordsworth's poem, Expostulation and Reply

"The eye--it cannot choose but see;
We cannot bid the ear be still;
Our bodies feel, where'er they be,
Against or with our will."

Typical male, 18th century thinking. Because there's no law that says you MUST leer, or that you MUST get aroused, or that you MUST sexualize. That's all just between your own ears! Don't blame nature. Just take responsibility for your own actions!

actually its a proven biological response why some men or women get aroused at what they see. its a primal instinct, that many people are still affected by even to this day. you cant really take the beast out of man or woman. for women do it just as bad and as much as men do. Just because some people dont like it, doesnt make it not true.

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