Drakonadrgora Darkfold Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said: Ah, see here is the crux of it. You have some kind of beef against LL and their complete and total disregard of the little people, and you claim they only fixate upon the almighty dollar. lol.. no I dont.. for they do. they are a business first and foremost and care more about their bottom line then anything else first and foremost. this is not really a big enough issue for them to worry about just because a few think its unfair. if they changed policy every time any one single person or small group complained it would be total chaos here on the forums and in sl./ the total in this thread pushing for the change make up less than 1% of the users of the forums, you really think they are going to care what less than 1% wants.. Edited May 16, 2020 by Drakonadrgora Darkfold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seicher Rae Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said: lol.. no I dont.. for they do. they are a business first and foremost and care more about their bottom line then anything else first and foremost. this is not really a big enough issue for them to worry about just because a few think its unfair. And since LL admits that SL is a unique thing, built by its users, you don't think the have a financial care about what their users think? Again... you're just blowing smoke. And, who elected you to speak on behalf of LL and their cares or worries? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seicher Rae Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said: what one may call artistic freedom another may call obscenity or pornography and unwanted or undesired. People say all sorts of stupid things all the time, that doesn't make them worthy of consideration. The difference between art and pornography is pretty apparent in most cases. I haven't seen them all but I doubt very much any of the depictions removed for nipple violations would or could in anyone's mind be considered pornography. 22 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said: I guess most people in these forums dont realize they make up less than 5% of the total userbase on sl. and LL is not going to change their polices over something they feel is just; to make the 5% happy. toward the other question, they could if it became a big enough problem. where as not allowing nipples is not a big enough problem for them to adjust their polices for to make a few people happy here. I have no delusions about my significance, if I was in world right now I would be nearer 0.002% of the population than 5%. My views however are based on my experience of people's common reactions, their tolerance or lack of tolerance on the issue under discussion. Supported by the fact you can see female nipples without an age check in public galleries and on the internet, you can even see pornography hosted on the internet from California without an age check. To support your view that nipples are offensive on the forum you have had to cite extremist religious sects. The percentage of people that read the forum, the fact my view is expressed by and as an individual rather than on behalf of a collective should hardly be surprising. To think that is an argument to disregard what has been said by me and others, as you keep repeating, is obviously a flawed argument if you think it supports what you are saying as an individual. Edited May 16, 2020 by Aethelwine 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakonadrgora Darkfold Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said: And since LL admits that SL is a unique thing, built by its users, you don't think the have a financial care about what their users think? Again... you're just blowing smoke. And, who elected you to speak on behalf of LL and their cares or worries? they dont care as much as you want to think they do. go ahead threaten to leave if they dont change it, see if they care or beg you comeback or stay. they wont. they are not going to try and make the 1% or less happy about things. only foolish companies do this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakonadrgora Darkfold Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Seicher Rae said: when im not and your sarcasm means nothing in the end but minor amusement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said: they dont care as much as you want to think they do. go ahead threaten to leave if they dont change it, see if they care or beg you comeback or stay. they wont. they are not going to try and make the 1% or less happy about things. only foolish companies do this. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakonadrgora Darkfold Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Aethelwine said: People say all sorts of stupid things all the time, that doesn't make them worthy of consideration. The difference between art and pornography is pretty apparent in most cases. I haven't seen them all but I doubt very much any of the depictions removed for nipple violations would or could in anyone's mind be considered pornography. I have no delusions about my significance, if I was in world right now I would be nearer 0.002% of the population than 5%. My views however are based on my experience of people's common reactions, their tolerance or lack of tolerance on the issue under discussion. Supported by the fact you can see female nipples without an age check in public galleries and on the internet, you can even see pornography hosted on the internet from California without an age check. To support your view that nipples are offensive on the forum you have had to cite extremist religious sects. The percentage of people that read the forum, the fact my view is expressed by and as an individual rather than on behalf of a collective should hardly be surprising to disregard what has been said by me and others, as you keep repeating, is obviously flawed if you think it supports what you are saying as an individual. people complain about all sorts of unfair practices all the time doesnt make them worth consideration.. see what I did there.. not to everyone, what one person calls art another can call porn. there is no set definitive definition of which is which that everyone has to agree too. lol.. they really do disregard a lot of what people say here, why do you think lindens and the governance dont respond to as much as people might think they should or would. most of the chatter on these forums is used by them for demographics and stats to show how many people come here, not how much they care about what is being said other then certain types of topics. they just dont admit to it or other forumites would raise up in anger at being seen as insignificant as they really are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakonadrgora Darkfold Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Aethelwine said: not a strawman its facts even if you dont like it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said: people complain about all sorts of unfair practices all the time doesnt make them worth consideration.. see what I did there.. Yes you ignored the context and made a straw man. 3 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said: not to everyone, what one person calls art another can call porn. there is no set definitive definition of which is which that everyone has to agree too. There is a legal standard that provides for a definition, it has already been given earlier by Beth. 4 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said: lol.. they really do disregard a lot of what people say here, why do you think lindens and the governance dont respond to as much as people might think they should or would. most of the chatter on these forums is used by them for demographics and stats to show how many people come here, not how much they care about what is being said other then certain types of topics. they just dont admit to it or other forumites would raise up in anger at being seen as insignificant as they really are. Linden Lab can do what ever they want to, no one is doubting that. No one thinks this thread is going to change anything. It is a discussion on a forum. Those of us that use the forum are fully aware how they work. Telling us what we already know, doesn't make your arguments any more convincing, it just makes you look a bit foolish patronising us and yes... straw man, again. Arguing against something no one has said or is thinking. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth Macbain Posted May 16, 2020 Author Share Posted May 16, 2020 Dear @Patch Linden, @Kristin Linden, and the rest of the Governance Team, I most sincerely and humbly apologize for what a complete cluster this thread has turned into due to the inability of one person to have intelligent, fact-based debate. My original post was a sincere request to revisit the policy, and admittedly a little bit tongue-in-cheek as well, but I underestimated the ability of one disgruntled person to completely derail a topic. While I would love to hear your thoughts on this, I don't really think there is any way possible to do that now as the thread has become such an tangled mess of ridiculousness with nearly every coherent argument being replied to with the equivalent of PeeWee Herman's "I know you are but what am I?" For the love of all that is holy, including nipples, please lock this thread, sweep it into a trash can, and set it on fire, put the ashes in a rocket ship, and launch them into space. Thank you, OP 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said: people complain about all sorts of unfair practices all the time doesnt make them worth consideration Drakon I *think* what Beth is wanting to debate about is whether the current standards are actually fair to women (kinda scanned, that's why I said I just *think*). We need to know this before even requesting anything of LL. The issues of whether LL would ever do what we'd like, or whether Beth is too audacious for even requesting or imagining the situation could be changed, or whether society could, would, or should change to remedy the unfairness are interesting but separate issues. Edited May 16, 2020 by Luna Bliss 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seicher Rae Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said: people complain about all sorts of unfair practices all the time doesnt make them worth consideration.. see what I did there.. not to everyone, what one person calls art another can call porn. there is no set definitive definition of which is which that everyone has to agree too. lol.. they really do disregard a lot of what people say here, why do you think lindens and the governance dont respond to as much as people might think they should or would. most of the chatter on these forums is used by them for demographics and stats to show how many people come here, not how much they care about what is being said other then certain types of topics. they just dont admit to it or other forumites would raise up in anger at being seen as insignificant as they really are. You just like to make sh1t up. "They really do disregard a lot..." Really? Are you a Linden? Also, you probably shouldn't cite (more) things you don't understand, like demographics and statistical samplings. For example, if you want to contact a congressman for a particular state, that office will assign a weight to your contact. Each contact represents so many voters. Each type of contact weights differently, such as an email carries a different importance weight than a phone call. You can blather all you want about "you are just a speck of dust to the Lindens" (again, wondering how you are so privy to the inner workings of the Lab), but there's a very good chance that if they are looking at the Forum to assess how the wind is blowing, they are doing a very similar type of sampling. I do not have access to the inner workings of the Lab, but assume they are competent in looking at such things. It might, as you are so fond of pontificating about, just affect their bottom line. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seicher Rae Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said: Dear @Patch Linden, @Kristin Linden, and the rest of the Governance Team, I most sincerely and humbly apologize for what a complete cluster this thread has turned into due to the inability of one person to have intelligent, fact-based debate. My original post was a sincere request to revisit the policy, and admittedly a little bit tongue-in-cheek as well, but I underestimated the ability of one disgruntled person to completely derail a topic. While I would love to hear your thoughts on this, I don't really think there is any way possible to do that now as the thread has become such an tangled mess of ridiculousness with nearly every coherent argument being replied to with the equivalent of PeeWee Herman's "I know you are but what am I?" For the love of all that is holy, including nipples, please lock this thread, sweep it into a trash can, and set it on fire, put the ashes in a rocket ship, and launch them into space. Thank you, OP Well, they probably know how to block somebody to make the thread read more coherently. I think you've had some very good responses, on both sides. That said, since you're putting a lock request in, it is probably time to bow out. It'll be interesting to follow up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 10 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said: not a strawman its facts even if you dont like it. You've constructed several straw men today. I won't dispute that nipple equality probably won't rise to the level that LL will do anything about it. That's not sufficient reason to deny Beth's argument, which I support. You chose to perform a pretty impressive act of self-immolation. As a result, I believe you'll to find it harder to advance future arguments here, because you've informed the forum of your weakness. 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakonadrgora Darkfold Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Drakon I *think* what Beth is wanting to debate about is whether the current standards are actually fair to women (kinda scanned, that's why I said I just *think*). We need to know this before even requesting anything of LL. The issues of whether LL would ever do what we'd like, or whether Beth is too audacious for even requesting or imagining the situation could be changed, or whether society could, would, or should change to remedy the unfairness are interesting but separate issues. finally someone with some common sense. who did try and use any silly childish arguments to change opinion or view. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said: 7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Drakon I *think* what Beth is wanting to debate about is whether the current standards are actually fair to women (kinda scanned, that's why I said I just *think*). We need to know this before even requesting anything of LL. The issues of whether LL would ever do what we'd like, or whether Beth is too audacious for even requesting or imagining the situation could be changed, or whether society could, would, or should change to remedy the unfairness are interesting but separate issues. finally someone with some common sense. who did try and use any silly childish arguments to change opinion or view. No, I'm basically saying you set up a bunch of strawman arguments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakonadrgora Darkfold Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said: You've constructed several straw men today. I won't dispute that nipple equality probably won't rise to the level that LL will do anything about it. That's not sufficient reason to deny Beth's argument, which I support. You chose to perform a pretty impressive act of self-immolation. As a result, I believe you'll to find it harder to advance future arguments here, because you've informed the forum of your weakness. no weakness.. I dont try and advance anything. its not my cup of tea. I dont really care if others like me or agree with me on the forums. I dont do the like me, make me popular childhood games. i can argue for the sake of arguing all day and not tire of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakonadrgora Darkfold Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said: No, I'm basically saying you set up a bunch of strawman arguments. not really, i didnt.. but you can think that if you want if it makes you feel better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakonadrgora Darkfold Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 12 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said: You just like to make sh1t up. "They really do disregard a lot..." Really? Are you a Linden? Also, you probably shouldn't cite (more) things you don't understand, like demographics and statistical samplings. For example, if you want to contact a congressman for a particular state, that office will assign a weight to your contact. Each contact represents so many voters. Each type of contact weights differently, such as an email carries a different importance weight than a phone call. You can blather all you want about "you are just a speck of dust to the Lindens" (again, wondering how you are so privy to the inner workings of the Lab), but there's a very good chance that if they are looking at the Forum to assess how the wind is blowing, they are doing a very similar type of sampling. I do not have access to the inner workings of the Lab, but assume they are competent in looking at such things. It might, as you are so fond of pontificating about, just affect their bottom line. it wont bother their bottom line enough for them to worry about. a lot of people like to make claims like this when things are brought up and it doesn't get the approval they wanted. that omg... im going to leave or spend less money or complain more.. that will hurt them then they will change.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said: 4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: No, I'm basically saying you set up a bunch of strawman arguments. not really, i didnt.. but you can think that if you want if it makes you feel better. Society has its present ways of viewing things, but that doesn't mean its wrong to become aware of what's unfair about it, or try to change it. That's what debate is about really -- trying to find the truth even when we know what we want has little chance of succeeding. It's like you constantly just wanted to shut the debate up. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seicher Rae Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said: finally someone with some common sense. who did try and use any silly childish arguments to change opinion or view. LOL! Your reading comprehension skills are a bit lacking. Pretty sure Luna is NOT agreeing with you. :::chuckles, on so many levels::: Edited May 16, 2020 by Seicher Rae 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seicher Rae Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 7 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said: i can argue for the sake of arguing all day and not tire of it. The trouble is, dear, you don't do it well, and it shows. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakonadrgora Darkfold Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Seicher Rae said: LOL! You're reading comprehension skills are a bit lacking. Pretty sure Luna is NOT agreeing with you. :::chuckles, on so many levels::: she doesnt have to agree with me for me to like what she said.. lol.. im not that childish that I need people to like me or agree with me here.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakonadrgora Darkfold Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said: The trouble is, dear, you don't do it well, and it shows. oh I read well, I understand well. but I am not changing how I reply to make others happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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