Ok Sloomer! The Rise and Fall of Second Life Generations

[Bree Giffen]

The problem is when you listen to music from the past you get the top songs for each period. Listening to the best of all the prior years makes the entire line of current music seem mediocre in comparison. But we have to remember that there were many thousands of one hit wonders and no-hit wonders for every period of music which are practically un-searchable in Google or any search engine. I occasionally think of a song I heard on MTV and try to find it on the internet to no avail. The bands just disappear! You'd think that every single music video ever made would be on the internet but they aren't.

[ThorinII]

Re: "Nowaday's music is dead/lifeless" - That's only when you don't actually listen to today's music. It might be that the music seems all the same nowadays (but that was the same since the '80s even), but when you listen to the songs, to the lyrics, and to the particular music of the song - then you'll see that nowadays' music is far from lifeless or dead.

Actually, I often have to actively search for videos of bands I do prefer over nowadays' top 40 of pop. And that even despite I like most music genres (except for German "Schlager", most Rammstein songs, most hip-hop, and some operas) - although which genre I prefer listening to at any moment is always depending on my current mood. That's one reason why I often listen to ultradarkradio via stream, instead of the local Hitradio FFH (which only runs half the day on my receiver because I want to hear the local and regional news instead of looking them up). But listening in on FFH also gives me some insight of what music the young people like. Me, I'm rather "meh" on most of the songs. However, some of them do stick in my ears - especially when I listen to the lyrics (which I often do).

 

That's something I like:

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by ThorinII

[Caroline Takeda]

19 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Do they have intergenerational squabbles?

Of course. For example:

The youngest one talked the oldest one into buying a bento head after a long argument.

[FairreLilette]

7 hours ago, ThorinII said:

Re: "Nowaday's music is dead/lifeless" - That's only when you don't actually listen to today's music. It might be that the music seems all the same nowadays (but that was the same since the '80s even), but when you listen to the songs, to the lyrics, and to the particular music of the song - then you'll see that nowadays' music is far from lifeless or dead.

Actually, I often have to actively search for videos of bands I do prefer over nowadays' top 40 of pop. And that even despite I like most music genres (except for German "Schlager", most Rammstein songs, most hip-hop, and some operas) - although which genre I prefer listening to at any moment is always depending on my current mood. That's one reason why I often listen to ultradarkradio via stream, instead of the local Hitradio FFH (which only runs half the day on my receiver because I want to hear the local and regional news instead of looking them up). But listening in on FFH also gives me some insight of what music the young people like. Me, I'm rather "meh" on most of the songs. However, some of them do stick in my ears - especially when I listen to the lyrics (which I often do).

 

That's something I like:

 

I said I've given it enough listens... and that I only like/well love The Black Keys, most of Jack White's endevors and Jet.  It's in my prior post - I listened.  These are all groups with real musicians from the 21st Century.  I want to hear real musicians.  However, that doesn't mean there couldn't be some music here or there that's good other than the musicians I've mentioned but I listen mostly to Classical music now and I'm happy...I don't want to go searching around for a needle in a haystack.  

I've having technical issues right now I need to fix regarding several issues.  I can listen to the song later hopefully.  

Edited November 30, 2019 by FairreLilette

[Garnet Psaltery]

10 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

 

 

That's rather nice, and it gets extra points for a brief appearance by 6SEEXIDOL9.  

[Scylla Rhiadra]

15 hours ago, AmandaKeen said:

I won’t comment Much despite the fact that the title of my “Generational Cohort” bugs me.

Oh, sorry! I racked my brains a little coming up with these -- I am totally open to suggestion!

15 hours ago, AmandaKeen said:

Personally, I have never worried overmuch about what “era” a Resident is from. I’m more concerned about whether a given individual is the sort who treats other Residents as PEOPLE or not.

I’m an SLOldie taking my Original into account, and in each generational cohort I can come up with broad examples of people who either treat others with respect or others who approach SL from a more self-centered approach.

Its their choice of course; but I prefer to hang out with that “treats you like a person and not an NPC for my amusement” group 🙂

I completely agree. Honestly, when someone interacts with me for the first time (and this is definitely true of the forums, but also in-world) it almost never occurs to me check their rez date, unless their conversation gives me some reason to wonder. It's almost never important, and it certainly doesn't guide my attitude towards them.

Again, generalizations are an analytical tool that are pretty vital to the way in which humans think, but they are only very useful in looking at the big picture. Invariably, they distort when we try to apply them to individuals.

I don't know that I've met many people who I thought treated me like an NPC -- except perhaps that handful who are only interested in sex?

15 hours ago, AmandaKeen said:

But yeah; the SLOldies as a cohort are kinda distinctive 🙂

I think so, generally, and in broad terms. But as a number of people have noted, I think I probably need to adjust my dates on this one.

[Amanda Crisp]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think so, generally, and in broad terms. But as a number of people have noted, I think I probably need to adjust my dates on this one.

I was thinking that back at the dawn of SL time, the average person I met was more likely to be a content Creator than today.

Now that the in world economy is established, SL is an easier slog for a wider slice of humanity and the archetype has shifted .

[Lindal Kidd]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think so, generally, and in broad terms. But as a number of people have noted, I think I probably need to adjust my dates on this one.

...waits anxiously to see if she's a SLoldbie or a SLoomer.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, AmandaKeen said:

I was thinking that back at the dawn of SL time, the average person I met was more likely to be a content Creator than today.

Now that the in world economy is established, SL is an easier slog for a wider slice of humanity and the archetype has shifted

Yes, and that's especially true now with mesh. I think that shift probably began with the boom in 2007/2008. I think very few of my friends in-world from that time, and from my cohort, were content creators, and most had only rudimentary skills in editing (mostly for the purposes of decorating houses or sims, or fixing clothing). I never became, by any definition, a big-time content creator, but I did some, so I spent a significant amount of time learning how to build, texture for sculpties, etc. I think I was an exception among my own circle of friends, and I was occasionally called upon to help out with more complicated work because they didn't know how, and I mostly did.

Now, I think SL is mostly about consumerism, rather than creation -- although there are still avenues open for the latter, through things like avatar customization and photography.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

12 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

...waits anxiously to see if she's a SLoldbie or a SLoomer.

Which would you prefer to be?

Honestly, Lindal, I've always thought of you as a SLoldbie, but that has nothing to do with your rez date, and more with the fact that you've devoted so much of your time here to mentoring and education at Caledon Oxbridge. That's the kind of thing that the first generation here did: they felt (still feel) a connection with, and responsibility for, the platform that I think is maybe less prevalent in later cohorts. That connects, maybe, with what Amanda said, above, about the prevalence of creation as an activity: SLoldbies almost literally built this world. You were, and still are, very much a part of that ethos.

[Rolig Loon]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Now, I think SL is mostly about consumerism, rather than creation -- although there are still avenues open for the latter, through things like avatar customization and photography.

I think that's a fair overview. I have always known more creators than I suspect most people do, but that's because I was drawn to building things and then, rather quickly, to scripting them. If I were starting in SL today, I would probably not feel the same pull.  The prolific builders and clothing designers today are semi-pro 3D modelers who have honed their skills outside of SL. They do their serious design work off-line and import the finished products later, so they don't offer the same "Here, let me show you" sort of casual mentoring that was common a decade ago. 

Scripters are a slightly different breed, because we have always done our work out of view. Even when we script things in world, it doesn't look as if we are working until something suddenly moves or changes appearance. Still, scripting itself has become more arcane with the introduction of Experiences, animesh, pathfinding, and a tripling (quadrupling?) of the number of native functions in the LSL toolbox.  I think it's harder for a newbie scripter today than it was back in the day.

At the risk of overreaching, this shift from being a population of creators to one of consumers seems to have paralleled RL.  Over my lifetime,I have watched cars become complicated enough that a neighborhood kid can't easily tinker with his hotrod in the driveway the way he could in the 1950s.  A budding mechanic needs computer diagnostics and special tools to do things that his father and grandfather did with a screwdriver and a socket wrench.  We don't sew at home any more -- it's hard to find a fabric store even -- and even cooking has been outsourced to fast food restaurants and frozen pizza.  We have learned to expect other people to make things for us, and there are fewer "other people" in small shops and garages.   Given that trend in RL, I don't find it surprising that SL residents -- especially the younger ones -- are consumers rather than creators.

Now that I've written this, I really feel like a codger.

[Luna Bliss]

All communities and movements change over time, and usually not for the better (at least as far as I can understand the phenomenon presently). They seem to lose some of the 'heart' and enthusiasm that is much more present when anything is new, and turn into a formula. Enter the sheeple.

I remember a theory that Robin Linden espoused (co-founder of Second Life), taken from some researcher (maybe a Sociologist), defining these 'first people' in communities (specifically virtual communities) -- the Pioneers, she called them.  I didn't like the theory at the time, as I'm wary of misapplying theories to communities/movements that haven't been around enough to make a valid judgement on.  I wish I could find the article now!

So often I've felt LL must want these 'Pioneers' to just die off or move on...lol.  Not sure if that's true, but is how I often feel these days. 

[Rolig Loon]

18 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

All communities and movements change over time, and usually not for the better (at least as far as I can understand the phenomenon presently). They seem to lose some of the 'heart' and enthusiasm that is much more present when anything is new, and turn into a formula. Enter the sheeple.

I remember a theory that Robin Linden espoused (co-founder of Second Life), taken from some researcher (maybe a Sociologist), defining these 'first people' in communities (specifically virtual communities) -- the Pioneers, she called them.  I didn't like the theory at the time, as I'm wary of misapplying theories to communities/movements that haven't been around enough to make a valid judgement on.  I wish I could find the article now!

Read up on the diffusion of innovations.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

34 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

If I were starting in SL today, I would probably not feel the same pull.  The prolific builders and clothing designers today are semi-pro 3D modelers who have honed their skills outside of SL. They do their serious design work off-line and import the finished products later, so they don't offer the same "Here, let me show you" sort of casual mentoring that was common a decade ago.

I remember the first time someone showed me building in SL. He generated a simple prim, and, as I watched, manipulated and scripted it, over the course of a couple of minutes maybe, into a waterfall. It was . . . magic. I was totally blown away by it.

There must still be places that do this, right? Builders Brewery, maybe?

[Lindal Kidd]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

There must still be places that do this, right? Builders Brewery, maybe?

Yes, them.

There's also a lengthy series of classes (the complete series runs about a year at one per week) on Blender for Second Life.  The in world group is "Blender Benders".  See: http://sligodigitalstudios.com/about.htm

[Rolig Loon]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

There must still be places that do this, right? Builders Brewery, maybe?

Yes, and there are always some new innovators driving the next wave of development. My previous comments not withstanding, I continue to be optimistic that SL is reinventing itself at a healthy rate, both from within -- Lindens and moles -- and by the addition of new creative talent.  I count myself as one of the "oldbie" generation of creators who have tried to keep up with the pace of change, and I know many others like me.  My nostalgic musings about the simpler days of home seamstresses and backyard mechanics shouldn't be interpreted as a sign that I am discouraged by the general shift toward consumerism.  The more people there are who cannot make things themselves, the more society depends on those who can create things -- artists, engineers, designers, farmers.  My only cry of alarm is that the bar for entry into that cadre of creators keeps getting higher, and the community of creators is less visible than it was in the past.  

[Caerolle Llewellyn]

4 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

Read up on the diffusion of innovations.

I like this model, it fits my relationship to SL better than anything I have seen so far in the thread. I came into SL in August of 2007, but definitely don't feel like an Oldie. I am always looking for something new and interesting, and at that time there were enough press on SL that I heard of it, and thought it was interesting. I had never been involved with anything like that before, and immediately loved it. However, although I care about other people, and love to help people, I don't much care about communities or organizations and really have done absolutely nothing to support or enrich SL beyond participating in the economy and donating to sims I like.

When I came in, I could buy anything I wanted (a big change in my SL experience was when I found you could use RL funds to buy Lindens, lol). I rarely made anything at all, and when I did it was something very, very simple, like a cube the size of my head to do proportioning of my avi. I have learned slightly more lately, but very slightly. To me, the real Oldies are the people who had to (I think) even make their avis, and certainly had to create a lot of what they used. I seem to recall someone telling me that people *had* to do a lot of scripting in the early years just to function (I had a partner who had been around almost from the beginning, and she told me a bit).

When I came in, a lot of other people were also hearing about SL, and it was a boom time for SL. I try to STFU about it these days, and have finally moved on, but SL was very, very different then, and for me, better. I would even the beautiful avis we can make now for the environment we had back then. But anyway, I see myself as being in the Early Majority, not as an Early Adopter. When I got here, a lot of other people were already here.

Wrt history, I guess I am a bad person, as I never really cared about the aspects of SL from before I came in, or those unrelated to my interests after I joined. I just focused on what I liked to do, and did not care about SL beyond that. Honestly, I still don't that much, other than I worry about SL dying off. For quite a long time, I didn't much care, as SL was mostly dead for me anyhow, but now I have found some things I enjoy, and would hate to see SL disappear.

One last thing, I wonder if the people in the Forum are a different sort than people who don't participate here? I only joined the Forum a few months ago, and only to find out about the whole Bellissaria mess. I don't know anyone in SL who uses the Forum, they just do stuff in SL. OTOH, many people in the Forum have been involved with some sort of forum as long as they have been in SL, and have more of a history with and interest in the broader aspects of SL. So I wonder if this is a very different cohort than most other SL residents fall into.

FWIW

[Selene Gregoire]

4 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

My nostalgic musings about the simpler days of home seamstresses and backyard mechanics shouldn't be interpreted as a sign that I am discouraged by the general shift toward consumerism.  The more people there are who cannot make things themselves, the more society depends on those who can create things -- artists, engineers, designers, farmers.  My only cry of alarm is that the bar for entry into that cadre of creators keeps getting higher, and the community of creators is less visible than it was in the past.  

I am discouraged by it because that bar keeps getting higher and higher. I wonder how much longer it will be before there are only a handful of original creators left and things end up being "cookie cutter" quality. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

52 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

All communities and movements change over time, and usually not for the better (at least as far as I can understand the phenomenon presently). They seem to lose some of the 'heart' and enthusiasm that is much more present when anything is new, and turn into a formula. Enter the sheeple.

"Better" or "worse" are of course subjective judgements. For many of those who, to take a for instance, enjoy mostly the consumerist aspects of SL, and maybe most especially fashion and avatar customization, SL is unquestionably "better" now than it was in 2008, when I joined. Although I lament (mostly quietly) the way in which a lot of diversity in clothing seems to have been lost, there is absolutely no question that there is more really good looking clothing now -- even if it frequently is not to my personal taste. And Bento avatars are simply waaaaaaaay nicer looking than system ones. Speaking as a photographer, now, I can't imagine going back to the status quo in terms of avatar appearance ca. 2008.

YMMV, as they say. And it's a mixed bag. I do miss the heady days when SL seemed vastly more social and dynamic and creative than it does now, but there are other ways in which the platform has unquestionably improved. It depends upon what you are looking for. And, if one is willing to put the time and effort into it (and I don't necessarily have the time), it is still possible to be very creative here, if you wish.

[Rolig Loon]

2 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I wonder how much longer it will be before there are only a handful of original creators left and things end up being "cookie cutter" quality. 

That's a legitimate worry.  Originality is always at a premium.  It's easier to modify -- or copy outright -- an idea that someone else came up with than it is to create something totally new.  Fortunately, there's always a need for both the original creators and the cookie cutters.  The original designers set the pace and help define "quality" and the others meet demand.  

My real concern, therefore isn't about SL or society in RL becoming less innovative but about the fact that so much creation is invisible to the general public. We lose something as children grow up not knowing that milk comes from dairy farms and never seeing people sewing the clothes that they wear.  I feel more than nostalgia when I contemplate worlds in which creation isn't seen as a daily experience.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

12 minutes ago, Caerolle Llewellyn said:

Wrt history, I guess I am a bad person, as I never really cared about the aspects of SL from before I came in, or those unrelated to my interests after I joined. I just focused on what I liked to do, and did not care about SL beyond that.

Hardly a "bad" person. You have different priorities.

To repeat something I've said before, there is no one who logs into SL who is not contributing to it in some way, even if that contribution is nothing more than being another voice here, another interesting person with whom to connect.

16 minutes ago, Caerolle Llewellyn said:

One last thing, I wonder if the people in the Forum are a different sort than people who don't participate here? I only joined the Forum a few months ago, and only to find out about the whole Bellissaria mess. I don't know anyone in SL who uses the Forum, they just do stuff in SL. OTOH, many people in the Forum have been involved with some sort of forum as long as they have been in SL, and have more of a history with and interest in the broader aspects of SL. So I wonder if this is a very different cohort than most other SL residents fall into.

I think that the forums do attract a different and mostly distinct kind of resident, but it's a group that cuts across a lot of different cultures within SL. When I first started using it, it was almost exclusively what I've called SLoldbies here. That changed a lot around 2010, I think, but it's true that the people here are generally better informed about, and more interested in SL than the average resident. (That could be extended to other platforms and forums too, including the old feeds, Flickr, FB, Discord, and the SL blogosphere). But if you look at individuals here, it's still an extremely diverse lot.

[Caerolle Llewellyn]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think that the forums do attract a different and mostly distinct kind of resident, but it's a group that cuts across a lot of different cultures within SL. When I first started using it, it was almost exclusively what I've called SLoldbies here. That changed a lot around 2010, I think, but it's true that the people here are generally better informed about, and more interested in SL than the average resident. (That could be extended to other platforms and forums too, including the old feeds, Flickr, FB, Discord, and the SL blogosphere). But if you look at individuals here, it's still an extremely diverse lot.

Sorry, I probably did not explain that very well. Yes, from what I have seen in the Forums, people who participate are very different in many, many ways (witness the contentiousness that arises in most threads, reminds me of the 'Tastes Great!"/"Less Filling!" beer commercials, lol), and fall into very different cohorts inworld. But I feel they are non-representative of (and this is what I was trying to avoid saying in the first place) the 'average' or 'general' or 'typical' resident. As I mentioned above, I have never run into anyone in SL who I see in the Forums, and have known anyone inworld who even mentioned them. Honestly, I did not even know the Forums existed until a few months ago, which probably says something about me, but also I think perhaps indicates that the Forum is not important at all to at least the variety of people I have met inworld over the last 12 years. I have known a few people who keep up with SL changes, mostly creators and land owners, but never heard anyone mention the Forums.

Just to show you how clueless I am, though, I also only recently discovered that Flickr was a big deal for SL photographers, or really that people even put a lot of time into taking SL photographs (or, 'snapshots,' as one person prefers ).

Hope this helps...

Carol

[Selene Gregoire]

17 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

That's a legitimate worry.  Originality is always at a premium.  It's easier to modify -- or copy outright -- an idea that someone else came up with than it is to create something totally new.  Fortunately, there's always a need for both the original creators and the cookie cutters.  The original designers set the pace and help define "quality" and the others meet demand.  

My real concern, therefore isn't about SL or society in RL becoming less innovative but about the fact that so much creation is invisible to the general public. We lose something as children grow up not knowing that milk comes from dairy farms and never seeing people sewing the clothes that they wear.  I feel more than nostalgia when I contemplate worlds in which creation isn't seen as a daily experience.

[Caerolle Llewellyn]

26 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

"Better" or "worse" are of course subjective judgements. For many of those who, to take a for instance, enjoy mostly the consumerist aspects of SL, and maybe most especially fashion and avatar customization, SL is unquestionably "better" now than it was in 2008, when I joined. Although I lament (mostly quietly) the way in which a lot of diversity in clothing seems to have been lost, there is absolutely no question that there is more really good looking clothing now -- even if it frequently is not to my personal taste. And Bento avatars are simply waaaaaaaay nicer looking than system ones. Speaking as a photographer, now, I can't imagine going back to the status quo in terms of avatar appearance ca. 2008.

YMMV, as they say. And it's a mixed bag. I do miss the heady days when SL seemed vastly more social and dynamic and creative than it does now, but there are other ways in which the platform has unquestionably improved. It depends upon what you are looking for. And, if one is willing to put the time and effort into it (and I don't necessarily have the time), it is still possible to be very creative here, if you wish.

Too bad we can't have the social environment from back then and the goddess-like avis we have now, but life seems to work according to the Law of Conservation of Good Stuff. Reminds me of Joni Mitchell's Both Sides now...~

[Scylla Rhiadra]

11 minutes ago, Caerolle Llewellyn said:

But I feel they are non-representative of (and this is what I was trying to avoid saying in the first place) the 'average' or 'general' or 'typical' resident. As I mentioned above, I have never run into anyone in SL who I see in the Forums, and have known anyone inworld who even mentioned them. Honestly, I did not even know the Forums existed until a few months ago, which probably says something about me, but also I think perhaps indicates that the Forum is not important at all to at least the variety of people I have met inworld over the last 12 years. I have known a few people who keep up with SL changes, mostly creators and land owners, but never heard anyone mention the Forums.

Oh yes, totally. We're a mostly irrelevant little sub-subset here.

There is one thing, though. I think that LL does actually pay a little attention to what gets said here, especially when there is something controversial. An example might be the decision to roll back the changes to group slots for non-premium residents: while I'm sure that this is not the only place that LL uses to gauge resident reactions to changes, I imagine it's an important one. In that sense, the forum probably does have a somewhat out-sized importance.

But mostly? Yeah, we're in our own little Cloudcuckooland here.

/me nestles in