MP fees raising to 10% per sale. Thoughts?

[Chic Aeon]

7 minutes ago, Desudesudesuka said:

Creators need to start moving inworld, but I've seen malls shut down as things go in the opposite direction due to the issues of management and rental. Despite server costs dropping like a rock LL is still fleecing people for renting servers they now rent off the cloud so it's ever cheaper for them. Where's the money going? Gotta be Sansar and champagne.

I think it is champagne. I am "in" Sansar at the moment LOL.

While there may be no need for mannequins (a comment above yours, I just hit the quote button) they are FUN.

 

DID WE FORGET WHAT FUN IS?!?!??!

 

I think many have. 

We used to have manequins (I was one in my first year out of the pod. Earned a little money. Got some free clothes of my choice.)

We used to have lucky chairs (yes, there are still some boards but not as fun as the chairs and certainly not as prevalent).

We used to have camping chairs where you could "earn" products. 

 

There are a LOT of things that we have lost.

 

And  to Lexbot Mollymews is NOT new.   She has many times more posts than you do. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Chic Aeon
spelling

[OptimoMaximo]

On 11/23/2019 at 6:10 AM, Diane Soulstar said:

I am glad that they think of the creators and only raised 5% more just and kept 10%. Please understand, that 30% is industry standards

What standard? They thought of the creators? Here is their thought: let's make them pay for the money we burnt in the development of a fail project aka Sansar, because if we raise the purchase fees the customers will go away and that will be accounted to our fault, since the price per dollar of Lindens has already been inflated much. So we deflate the cash out rate by the same much AND claim a larger slice from them, if prices increase it will be their fault and they will take the hit. 

Well, as Chic stated, I'm going to increase my prices by a significant percentage, making sure to put in clear why. We're at a point for which LL is taking well beyond 40%, the figures posted in a earlier post aren't taking into account the exchange rate that has been manipulated a lot over the last months, before and after the first fee raise. 

Edit to add: their thought of the creators consists in spite and hate because we didn't blindly get on board of Sansar and so, in their minds, it's struggling to take off for our fault. Indeed we pay the consequences while cashing out from DaJoke aka Sansar takes only 1.5% of proceeds. Way to go, LL. 

Second edit to add: the exchange rate went from 247 to the current 256 Linden per dollar. The trend has only seen a inflation of their value in the sell section, overtime, with no significant fluctuations whatsoever, anyone who has been watching the rates can confirm. Now that equals to roughly 3% inflation (its all rough extimation, I'm not sure what the current rate is right now at the time of this writing) if not a tiny bit more, I can't bother at the moment to lay down a proper calculation (but I will, later, when I'll be back home). I don't buy Lindens so I can't shoot numbers, but I've seen a inversely proportional deflation in the buy section as well, let's assume of the same magnitude as seen in the sell section. This all started when the first raise was introduced, and now a second round. So the actual raise is around 8% in the process credit and who knows how much for purchase. Good finding Lexbot, the links loops are a great way to shuffle the decks. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by OptimoMaximo

[Mollymews]

5 hours ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

There is zero need for a store mannequin to demo clothes for me

i agree that store mannequins are not for everyone

personally I would find a rezzer mannequin quite interesting to interact with

[Lexbot Sinister]

10 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

I think it is champagne. I am "in" Sansar at the moment LOL.

While there may be no need for mannequins (a comment above yours, I just hit the quote button) they are FUN.

 

DID WE FORGET WHAT FUN IS?!?!??!

 

I think many have. 

We used to have manequins (I was one in my first year out of the pod. Earned a little money. Got some free clothes of my choice.)

We used to have lucky chairs (yes, there are still some boards but not as fun as the chairs and certainly not as prevalent).

We used to have camping chairs where you could "earn" products. 

 

There are a LOT of things that we have lost.

 

And  to Lexbot Mollymews is NOT new.   She has many times more posts than you do. 

 

 

I was being sarcastic about Mollymews being new.... because anyone who shops clothes in SL (both from the marketplace and inworld) already knows that a mannequin is of no use other than shop decor to remind us of RL stores.  Also, number of posts doesn't signify overall SL experience or who is more new than not... it just shows if you are chatty or not. Anyhow, age is not a competition, it just seemed to me like such a beginner idea, without knowing how clothes in SL work nowadays.

 

Yes, SL used to have mannequins in some few stores, which were mostly a disguise to get people to camp for traffic. They did fill a small purpose of showing clothes off, since this was the time before demos had become commonplace. Hair already had demos, and skins as well, but prim and sculpted clothing didn't, as far as i can remember. Then came rigged mesh clothes, but, rigged only to bones and not adjusting to breast size or body fat etc etc. Needless to say, by then, it was IMPOSSIBLE to say if something would fit your shape, mannequin or not! So then came " standard sizing", on which merchants somewhat agreed what would be a size small, medium and large etc and now also clothing demos.

Since then, no mannequins have been necessary or needed, other than store decor. And as it comes to store decor, there are more fun things to do with the store space than put up mannequins, maybe.

 

It's true that we have "lost" a lot of things that would artificially bloat the traffic numbers, but i'm not too sure those should be missed. These were means to get your store more visible in search results, as traffic counted as a bonus to float your store up to the top of the search results. So the campers were paid to get your venue easier found and visible. This got of course abused to no end. Lucky chairs and group gifts still exist in no shortage.

 

[Lexbot Sinister]

On 11/23/2019 at 6:10 AM, Diane Soulstar said:

I am glad that they think of the creators and only raised 5% more just and kept 10%. Please understand, that 30% is industry standards. They charging way way less. I don't understand why people even complaining. People are using a service. If one not happy on 10% then unlist MP store and be happy with in-world store then. Imagine how Amazon, Google, Apple charge... way way more.

 

LL is not being honest about the "fees" being just 10%, compared to other stores like turbosquid etc. Last time i checked, Turbosquid didn't have any additional fee's to exchange dollars into playtokens to buy items with, or require the merchant to exchange those tokens back, nor do they have any fee for processing credit. So saying that the fee for selling goods in SL is just 10%, is dishonest.

I was trying to make a calculation for how much LL  would get off a customer taking in 10 000 L$, using $40.25, but, i got stuck on the process credit as it's no longer possible to view or read about the charges unless you are verified Tilia account holder (and verify and give them your RL info). If you try to find the fees for process credit, you are sent to a knowledge article, that links you back to the page on your dashboard that linked you to the knowledgebase to begin with.  How very transparent and all!

So i'm not surprised that many will not even realize there is more fees.

 

[Mollymews]

11 hours ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

But you know what store mannequins can increase? Customer complaints to the creator, after not demoing the clothes on their own avatar, and looking at the store mannequin instead.

is not a replacement for demos. Is just a cool thing to make. A 3D vendor machine that gives demos as well, same as a 2D vendor machine

the main reason that 3D vendors have not worked out in the past for store owners is that when rez a mesh garment on a mannequin / stand / or hanger, then the parcel LI cost can be quite high.  When the garments are attached to a bot then the parcel LI  cost is zero

[Lexbot Sinister]

Oh btw, found a post that did the math:

 

 

Quote

I did this calculation:

If I buy 2500L$, it cost me $9.73, and with transaction fee of US1.49 the final cost is US$11.22

If I sell an item on the MP for L$2500, I now get L$2250 for it. (10% LL commission as of Dec 2nd 2019)

When I sell the L$2250, I get US$8.13. (3.5% transaction fee to LL)

When I withdraw the balance to my bank, I get US$7.72 (5% Transaction fee to LL)

So if a SL member buys L$2500 and the merchant cashes it in, we are seeing a transformation of US$11.22 to US$7.72, and LL are effectively taking 31.2% for themselves.

LL say in thier blog post: ”This new rate remains significantly lower than most digital content commissions across the industry. Apple and Google charge a 30% commission on sales in their app stores, as do many other popular virtual worlds, VR and gaming platforms, such as Oculus and Sinespace.”

They refer just to the 10% MP commission, but we see that LL is actually creaming off over 30% if you follow the money from start to finish.

10% MP commission is one thing, but then all the other charges just add up to something that is somewhat unfair.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Lexbot Sinister

[OptimoMaximo]

38 minutes ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

btw, found a post that did the math:

 

That's the post I was referring to too... But as I also noted, nobody noticed the currency value manipulation that was applied in less than one year, since a short time before the first fee raise. The value has been driven down in the sell section by increasing the rate per dollar, BUT the buy rate was driven up decreasing the rate. So how does that sound? To sell these tokens, they're worth less, but they are also worth more when buying? With an inexplicably higher ratio between sel and buy than has ever been? Is currency manipulation legal in RL? I think not. 

[Coffee Pancake]

46 minutes ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

Oh btw, found a post that did the math:

Then factor in taxes ... 

Creators are very loathed to increase prices, ever. They tend to dramatically undervalue their time and work, production times since creation moved exclusively out of SL have skyrocketed, combined with a strong pressure to compete on price and people having an inflated sense of L$ value.

It's all well and good a few people on the forums saying they will happily pay higher prices, but those few do not make up the volume of sales.

Most customers still genuinely feel L$500 is a lot of money and have no concept of the time, tools and skillsets used to bring an object to market.

 

[Minkarue]

Any of you merchants or residents remember Xstreet and OnRez ? , those were the models for the modern day Sl Market Place and in the days prior to Linden Lab buying them out that's where us merchants and residents did our shopping , those two sites were opened up by private residents and they didn't fleece us with these over inflated fees and were very reasonable , I think it's high time to reach out to talented web designers to recreate an alternate avenue for us merchants and residents to sell and buy sl items and create some good old fashioned competition and show Linden Lab that we the people of secondlife are the ones who make it all possible . And my message to Linden Lab is " Read my Lips " ...

Edited November 25, 2019 by Minkarue

[Paul Hexem]

13 hours ago, Desudesudesuka said:

Creators need to start moving inworld, but I've seen malls shut down as things go in the opposite direction due to the issues of management and rental. Despite server costs dropping like a rock LL is still fleecing people for renting servers, which they now rent off the cloud so it's ever cheaper for them. Where's the money going? Gotta be Sansar and champagne. There is such a thing as ripping people off too much when you're trying to run shop a market ecosystem and metaverse. LL sure likes to brag about the work users have done while they undermine it. But it really is their loss, because we'll all be just as skilled and creative when we're forced to move on. LL doesn't create content, there's nothing for them if they chase creators away. And a good way to do that would be reducing the profit margins from a hobby you can barely profit off of to literal slave labour. Doing it solely for fun becomes less viable with the insane land costs and declining amount of people to interact with.

A new creator will have to pay out of pocket to host an inworld store and in my experience the volume compared to the MP is lacking, it won't be worth it.

That's another factor to consider. While they're raising fees, they're not lowering land costs. For less than the cost of a region, I can rent an entire physical server with very good hardware on it. Enough to host 2 or 3 SL regions, easily. 

There's no justification for that kind of markup, plus all the other fees. 

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Minkarue said:

I think it's high time to reach out to talented web designers to recreate an alternate avenue for us merchants and residents....

So .. What did happen to Primbay ?

[Minkarue]

I'm not sure what happened to Primbay but they would be just what we need right about now , when you do a web search for them the most current date referencing anything to them is 2017 , they still have a facebook page and they have a website that doesn't appear to be working ? .

[Tari Landar]

3 hours ago, Minkarue said:

Any of you merchants or residents remember Xstreet and OnRez ? , those were the models for the modern day Sl Market Place and in the days prior to Linden Lab buying them out that's where us merchants and residents did our shopping , those two sites were opened up by private residents and they didn't fleece us with these over inflated fees and were very reasonable , I think it's high time to reach out to talented web designers to recreate an alternate avenue for us merchants and residents to sell and buy sl items and create some good old fashioned competition and show Linden Lab that we the people of secondlife are the ones who make it all possible . And my message to Linden Lab is " Read my Lips " ...

LL refuses to allow third party sites like this. They stopped allowing it when they shut down onrez and took over Slex(which became Xstreet). It won't matter how much we rally, LL will NOT allow this, period. It's been tried several times, LL manages shutting all ideas down before they even get past alpha. LL has big pockets, no one stands a chance at trying to fight this anymore...which is SAD as hell (and makes me angry, I'm sure I'm not alone in that). LL claims it's to reduce potential abuse, potential overcharging of residents, and people skimming off the top but...well...here we are, LL doing exactly what they said they wanted to prevent years ago. 

 

[Dima Plessis]

I am seriously considering removing all current products from MP and using it only for items no longer available in world. I cannot afford to pay 10% commission plus the exchange and cashout fees and I am trying really hard to avoid raising costs for customers.

[Minkarue]

2 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

LL refuses to allow third party sites like this. They stopped allowing it when they shut down onrez and took over Slex(which became Xstreet). It won't matter how much we rally, LL will NOT allow this, period. It's been tried several times, LL manages shutting all ideas down before they even get past alpha. LL has big pockets, no one stands a chance at trying to fight this anymore...which is SAD as hell (and makes me angry, I'm sure I'm not alone in that). LL claims it's to reduce potential abuse, potential overcharging of residents, and people skimming off the top but...well...here we are, LL doing exactly what they said they wanted to prevent years ago. 

 

If this is the case what we have is a prime example of a Monopoly and no not the game . These unfair price hikes and money grabs as outlined in our Antitrust Laws are known as predatory acts . Simply put Linden Lab would be in violation of our antitrust laws . It doesn't take an attorney to google monopoly or antitrust laws and based on what you will read will point a finger at Linden Lab . It's all there in black and white , read it for yourself , and lets hear what you think about this .

[Alyona Su]

27 minutes ago, Minkarue said:

If this is the case what we have is a prime example of a Monopoly and no not the game . These unfair price hikes and money grabs as outlined in our Antitrust Laws are known as predatory acts . Simply put Linden Lab would be in violation of our antitrust laws . It doesn't take an attorney to google monopoly or antitrust laws and based on what you will read will point a finger at Linden Lab . It's all there in black and white , read it for yourself , and lets hear what you think about this .

Like how Cinema theaters will kick you out if you bring your own drink and snacks? Just asking.

[Coffee Pancake]

7 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Like how Cinema theaters will kick you out if you bring your own drink and snacks? Just asking.

That's another superficial comparison.

[Alyona Su]

16 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

That's another superficial comparison.

It was my reply to the insinuated anti-trust bit.

[Paul Hexem]

There may be a case there, actually. They shut down competitor's options while allowing fraud and theft on their own is the angle I'd be discussing with a lawyer, if I had the time and money. 

Which is another issue in itself. 

[Minkarue]

28 minutes ago, Gadget Portal said:

There may be a case there, actually. They shut down competitor's options while allowing fraud and theft on their own is the angle I'd be discussing with a lawyer, if I had the time and money. 

Which is another issue in itself. 

Here is a 10 year old article about Linden Labs acquisition of OnRez and Xstreet . Linden Labs Market Place has no competitors there by cornering the sl online marketing experience . It smells like monopoly to me .....  link >>>     https://kotaku.com/linden-lab-buys-second-life-virtual-marketplaces-onrez-5136087

 

[Tari Landar]

As much as I would love to say that LL is indeed breaking laws, in some fashion, with regards to not allowing third party "sales"..platforms and methodologies...I can't. They may just barely teeter on the edge of legalities, but I have serious doubts that they actually overstep the line.

This might get really confusing...and it's long, and complicated, I may not explain it the best (perhaps someone can clean it up for me and explain it better..I'm having a not fun day)..fair warning.

The main reason that I say this, is because SL is wholely owned by Linden Lab(no s), and under no legal obligation to even allow third party anything (viewers, financial capabilities, marketplaces, etc.). Of course sl is a monopoly, right now, all of sl is a monopoly, as there is nothing just like it anywhere in the world, but monopolies aren't illegal in and of themselves, in fact, most aren't. Antitrust laws aren't designed to punish successful companies who happen to corner a market, especially one that literally has no competition. In order to be illegal the company MUST be run on predatory and exclusionary acts that harm companies with similar interests (which doesn't include marketplace alone..it would have to include the whole of sl as a product..so, like opensim for example, and not a marketplace designed for use in opensim..the WHOLE entity matters, not a singular component). 

Any company could come along and make something just like SL and LL would have no recourse should the other product/company end up dominating over SL (it hasn't happened yet..I won't say it won't happen, but...eh..lots have tried, so..) LL doesn't limit the creation of other products similar to SL. What they limit and disallow is third party creations like the MP-which require explicit use of SL property, and that isn't illegal (anywhere in the world). For it to be illegal, there has to be a legal law in place that disallows it, and there is not. There is no law that says "you have to let people outside of your company provide a product that works within your platform to allow users more choices", because there is no law that says "you have to allow users choices". Unfortunately, antitrust is not what this is. In order to allow the creation, implementation and use of a third party marketplace type solution, LL has to allow a certain amount of access to company (LL's) assets, and that would actually null the legal complaint of monopoly because then that third party solution becomes a partner and/or subsidiary of LL itself..you can't monopolize your own company. 

If they were under legal obligation to allow third party anything, LL would not have been able to stop people from being able to purchase lindens (money) from third party sellers. It is because disallowing third party sellers/offerings of...(insert whatever, marketplace, money purchasing, etc.) is not a legal requirement of LL, that this was possible. It was fought, and it was fought hard when it first started happening (for many years you could purchase lindens in numerous different places-helpful for people that couldn't use the then existing but somewhat limiting methods). There are also US laws-the very specifics of which I do not remember in their entirety, but it amounts to "fraud prevention" and applies to FAR more than just LL and SL...plus, that's even more complicated) . LL was not found to be breaking antitrust laws then...it most definitely won't fly here (I wish it did). 

I am not saying I like it any better than anyone else, or that I think LL should keep teetering just on the edge of things. Nor do I think LL makes the wisest decisions (I think all of their decisions surrounding MP are bad, actually, and getting worse and I WISH they'd relinquish control of it to someone that's more prepared..but I digress..). I am simply saying...this is what we have, this is what we have had for years, and there is nothing that is going to change that, or make it illegal, as it stands now. 

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Tari Landar

[Mollymews]

12 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

 But as I also noted, nobody noticed the currency value manipulation that was applied in less than one year, since a short time before the first fee raise. The value has been driven down in the sell section by increasing the rate per dollar, BUT the buy rate was driven up decreasing the rate. So how does that sound? To sell these tokens, they're worth less, but they are also worth more when buying? With an inexplicably higher ratio between sel and buy than has ever been?

on this part.  not sure what the LindeX buy/sell spread or its volatility is today, but if it gets too far apart then we could see residents coming back into the arbitrage market.  Arbitrage used to be quite a big thing back in the day when the LindeX was volatile and the spread got wide enough

i haven't done any numbers on the current spread tho to see if arbitrage is again viable

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, Gadget Portal said:

There may be a case there, actually. They shut down competitor's options while allowing fraud and theft on their own is the angle I'd be discussing with a lawyer, if I had the time and money.

There may be. There may also be a question of to what degree LL's policies here comply with the laws about False self-employment - or Misclassification of employees as independent as contractors as they call it in the USA. There's a lot of noise about this among YouTube publishers these days and although it's not the same as what we're struggling with, there are some similarities.

But as you say, is this really big enough to justify the expenses of taking legal actions?

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

i haven't done any numbers on the current spread tho to see if arbitrage is again viable

I have and the spread seems to be self adjusting, staying around 10 L$ between highest open sell orders and lowest open buy orders. There are a few Lindens to make that way but not much since LL keeps it down with the transaction limit.