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MP fees raising to 10% per sale. Thoughts?

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4 minutes ago, MeshPromo said:

I remember saw in this forum, the marketplace inflation in comparison  to the inworld store,  is no longer an issue.

If it is true, is it still possible to give 5% discount for customers who buy from the inworld store?

ie: Mention in the marketplace listing that even though the Marketplace price 99L$, if you buy this from my inworld store its only 94L$

That way we can save the increased 5%.

 

I'm not sure if you can mention it in listings or not.  You shoud probably  ask by tagging Dakota Linden for the official stance

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I wonder what Linden Lab think where the money comes from? The content creators, who fill their empty world with content so others feel the need to spend time and money in here, are no employees and don't receive yearly salary increases. So do we magically sell more stuff because LL raises all fees? No? Okay, so we have to do the same like in the real world. We have to raise the prices too to have at least the same at the end. I'm in Second Life since 2006. It is my real life job since 2008. And currently it is very hard to keep it as a job. If they raise all the fees too high, there will be a point where content creators see no sense in continue the work. And with an empty world, Linden Lab will make no money anymore. So maybe they should think about that when they compare themself with Google or Apple appstore. Without us they are nothing. Google and Apple have many other income sources.

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18 hours ago, Tonk Tomcat said:

I wonder what Linden Lab think where the money comes from? The content creators, who fill their empty world with content so others feel the need to spend time and money in here, are no employees and don't receive yearly salary increases. So do we magically sell more stuff because LL raises all fees? No? Okay, so we have to do the same like in the real world. We have to raise the prices too to have at least the same at the end. I'm in Second Life since 2006. It is my real life job since 2008. And currently it is very hard to keep it as a job. If they raise all the fees too high, there will be a point where content creators see no sense in continue the work. And with an empty world, Linden Lab will make no money anymore. So maybe they should think about that when they compare themself with Google or Apple appstore. Without us they are nothing. Google and Apple have many other income sources.

Pretending that there's doom and gloom because of raised fees (to 10%!) is really dumb, especially when the fees have been the same since the beginning. It's even dumber to say "without us, you're nothing" because business is always at least a two-way street. Without Linden Lab, you can't sell anything either. Then what? You both need each other on this platform.

And as personal financial advice -- if your ability to support yourself is threatened by 5-15% increase in cost, maybe you shouldn't rely on that form of income.

18 hours ago, Tonk Tomcat said:

I wonder what Linden Lab think where the money comes from? So do we magically sell more stuff because LL raises all fees?

The money comes from us, not you or Linden Lab. Raising your prices because the cost of doing business has increased is a perfectly valid reason to do so. Go ahead. I'll pay that additional 5%.

18 hours ago, Tonk Tomcat said:

So maybe they should think about that when they compare themself with Google or Apple appstore. Google and Apple have many other income sources.

Linden Lab has more sources of income besides Second Life, especially now that Tilia is up and running. You as well compare Linden Lab's business model to Valve instead. Valve's main source of income is Steam, which is just a platform for others to sell their creations (not just games) on. Steam also takes a 30% cut from all sales.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator

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5 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

...

Well, i'm here since 2006 and what i say is valid to me. It's not the first time they raised fees and what they did with process fees before was a very high increase too. So you are the dumb one if you don't see it all together and in the long term view. But i guess sl is not your rl job and you are not even able to make your living with it, right? Because if you would, you would know what 5% increases means to you, when you're a freelancer and self employed. Nice try anyways. I'm not here to argue, so just go on call others opinion dumb 🙄Really dumd, indeed.

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6 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Pretending that there's doom and gloom because of raised fees (to 10%!) is really dumb

 

54 minutes ago, Tonk Tomcat said:

So you are the dumb one if you don't see it all together and in the long term view.

Ummm, can we leave it to politicians and such to use words like "dumb" to describe their opponents? I'm not criticising since I'm sure I've lost my temper and said similar things myself on the forums but tit-for-tat doesn't really lead to constructive discussions.

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It's an attempt to make merchants shut up - especially those who make a profit. I believe there are many more merchants who would like to express their views but don't want to be subjected to abuse.

And I also suspect a touch of jealousy, because I don't know what else it could be. But it takes hard work, years and years of hard work to make sustainable profit, that one can rely on. That's what we put the time in for. It's an investment. We do it because we take the gamble that the time we put in now will pay off into the future. And when that is eroded away by fees and more fees, then it's time to rethink. Is it worth it, will it pay off? It's a helluva lot of hours, hard work. And that's why many people who try never get there. It's way too hard.

And then people want to know why we are upset. Merchants who work to make a decent sustainable profit  work harder than any LL employee - weekends, late into the night, all night is the norm - 'please don't talk to me, I'm working' that's our SL and RL life. And that's what makes SL - it wouldn't be here if it wasn't for profit driven creators.

 

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7 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

And as personal financial advice -- if your ability to support yourself is threatened by 5-15% increase in cost, maybe you shouldn't rely on that form of income.

That's good advice. Unfortunately that's part of the problem. If all merchants/creators did as you suggested, we would end up with much less new content and a steady stream of new content is one of the main factors that keep SL alive.

 

7 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Pretending that there's doom and gloom because of raised fees (to 10%!) is really dumb, especially when the fees have been the same since the beginning.

As Tonk said, this isn't the first. There have been several increases in various fees and all indications say this isn't the last one.

 

7 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

The money comes from us, not you or Linden Lab. Raising your prices because the cost of doing business has increased is a perfectly valid reason to do so. Go ahead. I'll pay that additional 5%.

That's nice of you but I don't think you speak on behalf of the general SL user here. Generally higher prices mean fewer sales. I think all serious SL merchants have already spent a lot of time and effort finding the right balance there. That balance don't change when the fees increase and if you got it right to start with, you'll loose income if you increase the prices.

The total economy of SL is decreasing. That's an obvious fact and there doesn't seem to be anything neither we nor LL can do to change that. LL wants to keep their share at a steady size and that means there'll be less and less for everybody else. It's simple maths. By now, if LL wanted to get back to the revenue they had ten years ago even a 100% fee wouldn't be enough since the total economy today is smaller than what their share was back then.

With all that being said, it isn't actually the money in itself that worries me the most, it's LL's attidude towards merchants and content creators. They show no appreciation or understanding at all and just assume that merchants lvie the life or Riley and need to be taxed more because it's "fair". And for that reason I'm out.

No, I'm not really out (and yes, I've watched way too mucn Dragons Den recently :P). But every time I'm about to upload or list something I ask my self, is it worth the bother? The answer is nearly always no and I end up spending my time on something better instead. The occasions I actually end up doing something to add new content to SL are becoming rarer and rarer every week.

Edited by ChinRey
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@Rya Nitely I promise it's not jealousy. Any money I make (~6000 L$ per month) is from 10% commissions from things I have scripted for other people. SL isn't my job and I don't want it to be. I don't need anybody to "shut up" either, my opinion is just as valid as yours or anybody else's. And my opinion is this:

Scenario 1:

  1. For example, let's say people spend 1'000'000 L$ on your products on MP.
    The current Market Value for those lindens (259:1) is 3862.5 USD.
  2. LL takes 10% as MP fees, you get 900'000 L$.
  3. You Market Sell all of it. After fees, you have 3225.06 USD.
  4. You cash out. After LL's 5% fee, you get 3063.81 USD.

Scenario 2: Let's back up a bit. What about before?

  1. Same initial scenario, people have spent 1'000'000 L$ on your products.
  2. LL takes 5% as MP fees, you get 950'000 L$.
  3. You Market Sell all of it. After fees, you have 3404.19 USD.
  4. You cash out. After LL's 2.5% fee, you get 3319.09 USD.

That's a difference of about $250, when you're getting over $3000. Sure, losing $250 (or 7.5%) sucks and it doesn't take a genius to understand that, but it shouldn't be catastrophic. If SL was my full-time job and I was living paycheck-to-paycheck (or even 90% of my paycheck), I wouldn't sit on that knife's edge until I get cut. That would be too scary.

I'm also sorry if me calling out dumb behavior offended anybody (maybe the wording wasn't as graceful as it could've been), but I stand by it, because of what I've just explained. (And to further clarify -- smart people make dumb decisions too. Me calling something dumb does not mean I'm calling the person dumb as a whole. That's what Tonk did.)

I also understand that this is the biggest fee increase LL has made. The previous increases were only for processing, from ($1 flat to) 1.5% to 2.5%, which is literally a pittance at any scale. Now we're at 5% and Marketplace was increased for the first time in its history. I'm also expecting that the rate might still go up, and I will still be saying the same thing as I am now. Think ahead and be financially secure, as you should be. If you can't take another 2.5%, you should be looking at other options now, not later. That doesn't mean you need to stop now, but don't let yourself get caught off-guard.

@ChinRey Was it okay for people to pay $300/mo for 256sqm of virtual land? We're at least down to $230/mo now, thanks to the shift in pricing. It's still a pretty ridiculous price at the face of it (ignoring the cost of CPU time), but I don't think that's very "fair" either.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator

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39 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

 

@ChinRey Was it okay for people to pay $300/mo for 256sqm of virtual land? We're at least down to $230/mo now, thanks to the shift in pricing. It's still a pretty ridiculous price at the face of it (ignoring the cost of CPU time), but I don't think that's very "fair" either.

I totally agree, I'm a landowner too, remember.

I think you said womething important here:

41 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Think ahead and be financially secure, as you should be. If you can't take another 2.5%, you should be looking at other options now, not later. That doesn't mean you need to stop now, but don't let yourself get caught off-guard.

That again is very good advice but I want to add that LL is a very good example how not to do it.

The SL boom ended about ten years ago but LL failed to notice and kept operating as if nothing had happened. I wasn't until 2014 we started to see even some minor attempts to adjust the course to adapt to the situation and by then they were pretty much stuck. So for all their recent efforts it's all been too little and too late and as often as not their attempts have done more harm than good.

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6 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

~6000 L$ per month

I pay more than this in my weekly rent for my inworld shop - L$7500/week. And this is a saving of L$500 with Ebbe's 'making land cheaper' plan. So yes I also think land is expensive but he was going to distribute the money from merchants to land owners, that was the plan. So, there hasn't been a significant enough decrease for it to sift down to my rent.

And about your calculation, could you also put in the increased cost of selling L$, and factor in the decrease value of the L$ from 247 to 258. All this has an impact on our profit.

Anyway, as Rey said, we don't know what's coming. So, I don't make new items either. Instead I'm doing it as a hobby, tinkering with scripting and animations. Things I've never tried before. But what if everyone or significant number of creators decided to just tinker (take your advice)? Not bother to focus on profit , what would happen? And the answer some people give here is that 'someone else will take your place' - so the necessity to have profit driven merchants is acknowledged.

And, as for your equally valid opinion - merchants who are actually experiencing this situation have a more valid opinion than those who aren't being impacted. It's like you telling someone experiencing real physical pain or getting over a death of a loved one or anything like that - that your opinion on what they are experiencing is as valid as theirs, although you're not going through it.

 

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1 hour ago, Rya Nitely said:

Anyway, as Rey said, we don't know what's coming. So, I don't make new items either.

no more pretty flowers  :(

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22 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

And as personal financial advice -- if your ability to support yourself is threatened by 5-15% increase in cost, maybe you shouldn't rely on that form of income.

14 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

That's a difference of about $250, when you're getting over $3000. Sure, losing $250 (or 7.5%) sucks and it doesn't take a genius to understand that, but it shouldn't be catastrophic

If being impacted by a sudden increase of 5-15% cost or a 7.5% decrease in income means one should switch jobs, a good portion of the population should quit. People have gone on strikes for a mere 2% pay raise, meanwhile we shouldn't be unhappy/concerned about what amounts to several consecutive and ongoing pay cuts?

Edited by Isilmeriel
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3 hours ago, Isilmeriel said:

If being impacted by a sudden increase of 5-15% cost or a 7.5% decrease in income means one should switch jobs, a good portion of the population should quit. People have gone on strikes for a mere 2% pay raise, meanwhile we shouldn't be unhappy/concerned about what amounts to several consecutive and ongoing pay cuts?

Again, I've never said or implied you can't be unhappy about it. I'm responding directly to the dramatization of "everybody will quit and LL will go out of business because of this."

Pay raise vs pay cut are very different things. Any permanent decrease in pay has the potential to put somebody who's "doing okay" into the "maybe danger zone" or close to it. There are also reasons why some people can't just look for another job. I'm aware of these exceptions, but I'm not talking about exceptions. I'm speaking in general, so anybody's personal situation and feelings are not what I'm talking about.

10 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:
17 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

~6000 L$ per month

I pay more than this in my weekly rent for my inworld shop - L$7500/week. And this is a saving of L$500 with Ebbe's 'making land cheaper' plan. So yes I also think land is expensive but he was going to distribute the money from merchants to land owners, that was the plan. So, there hasn't been a significant enough decrease for it to sift down to my rent.

Why quote what I'm making and responding with what you're paying in rent? 🤔

10 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

And about your calculation, could you also put in the increased cost of selling L$, and factor in the decrease value of the L$ from 247 to 258. All this has an impact on our profit.

I linked the pages that I used for my calculations. The Market Sell page shows the real numbers and includes the fee of selling lindens (3.5%), so of course I included it. If you want to suppose lower rates, feel free to do the recalculation yourself and post it here. I did not alter any rates because I'm pretty math dumb and didn't want to distort the amounts by making mistakes.

10 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

Anyway, as Rey said, we don't know what's coming. So, I don't make new items either. Instead I'm doing it as a hobby, tinkering with scripting and animations. Things I've never tried before. But what if everyone or significant number of creators decided to just tinker (take your advice)? Not bother to focus on profit , what would happen? And the answer some people give here is that 'someone else will take your place' - so the necessity to have profit driven merchants is acknowledged.

And, as for your equally valid opinion - merchants who are actually experiencing this situation have a more valid opinion than those who aren't being impacted. It's like you telling someone experiencing real physical pain or getting over a death of a loved one or anything like that - that your opinion on what they are experiencing is as valid as theirs, although you're not going through it.

Maybe you would be replaced, maybe you wouldn't. I don't mind either way. If your shift to tinkering means you're making the most of the money you could be earning to sustain yourself, I'd say that'd be a good decision for you. Certainly if most people stop producing work, it becomes much easier for others to even accidentally replace you if their rate of "just tinkering" is faster.

But I don't like this emotional narrative that's being weaved. I wouldn't tell someone in physical pain or grieving a death to not do it. However if someone was having a mental breakdown and telling everybody that we're all going to die, I would slap some sense into them (as a figure of speech).

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator

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5 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Why quote what I'm making and responding with what you're paying in rent? 🤔

All the recent fee increases don't have a significant impact on you (because of what you're making), so you have less empathy for those who do feel the impact. But you're not expected to have empathy, just leave it alone. Don't call people dumb, in whatever context, and lecture them about what they should and shouldn't do.

Thanks for the calculations. It's a significant increase as Isilmeriel pointed out, and your response there shows some understanding of the impact on others.

5 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Maybe you would be replaced, maybe you wouldn't. I don't mind either way.

I'm not just talking about myself here. I'm using myself as an example, as others have done. If a situation has an impact on one, then others who are also experiencing it are probably also affected in the same way.

I don't understand what you mean by 'making the most of the money I could be earning'..., and people tinkering faster 😕, tinkering is tinkering. And you don't seem to understand that in SL what gives merchants/creators their drive is profit - make that substantially less and there'll be a lot less desire for anyone to work harder and faster - no amount of fast tinkering will achieve it - it's hard dedicated work, to the point of obsession.

(And Luna would miss me 🙂)

5 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

But I don't like this emotional narrative that's being weaved............However if someone was having a mental breakdown and telling everybody that we're all going to die, I would slap some sense into them (as a figure of speech).

^ emotional narrative

Tonk wasn't having a mental breakdown and telling everybody that we're all going to die, so there was no need for your sense slapping.

Edited by Rya Nitely
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4 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

Don't call people dumb, in whatever context, and lecture them about what they should and shouldn't do.

I'm sorry but there are lots of good reasons to do that. Maybe not in this case since it doesn't really affect others, but I also haven't called anyone dumb; only specific behavior, which is different. You're the one who's mischaracterising me by saying I have no empathy, which I do, but only when I'm talking on a personal level. This is "bigger picture stuff."

The grief/death was an analogy.

"Grieving a death" = "This fricking sucks, I'm no longer able to operate full-time on SL. LL sucks and it's their fault."

"Telling everybody we're all going to die" = "LL is disincentivising creators. Who knows when they'll stop? No one can keep going at this rate and soon there'll be no creators."

One of these I'm completely empathetic to, and wouldn't even think to argue. The other is doomsay.

4 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

I don't understand what you mean by 'making the most of the money I could be earning'

What I meant was "if the increased fees mean that you would rather choose to have another job because it pays more, and only create SL content as a hobby, that's fine and I don't blame you."

On the other hand, this could impact me even if I made 0 L$ per year. If all the prices on MP went up by 7.5% (or even 15%) tomorrow (because the creators want to offset the cost), I wouldn't bat an eye. I would keep buying the stuff I like because I think it's only fair for creators to raise their prices if they want and I'll support them if it's reasonable. (7.5% is.)

I find it very weird that some think that increasing their prices a little bit would cause an even bigger drop in total revenue. Does it work the same the opposite way? What makes one think they've found the one Goldilocks zone for price, and why isn't it the same for everyone? What if a creator improves over time?

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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30 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

but I also haven't called anyone dumb; only specific behavior, which is different.

I was going to comment on that because there is indeed a huge difference. Even the smartest people do something dumb every now and then so that's hardly an insult. It's still risky though because it's easily misunderstood as it was in this case.

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1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

If all the prices on MP went up by 7.5% (or even 15%) tomorrow (because the creators want to offset the cost), I wouldn't bat an eye. I would keep buying the stuff I like because I think it's only fair for creators to raise their prices if they want and I'll support them if it's reasonable. (7.5% is.)

I raised my prices by 25L$ (10 US pennies) around the start of this thread, my sales tanked across the board the day I did this and have remained there since.

Raising prices is something that fills the entire creative community with existential dread, for good reason.

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30 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

I raised my prices by 25L$ (10 US pennies) around the start of this thread, my sales tanked across the board the day I did this and have remained there since.

Raising prices is something that fills the entire creative community with existential dread, for good reason.

Even if I believe that at face value (and I have no particular reason not to), you have a very small store and (I imagine) small target audience as well.

It's hard to definitely correlate why your sales have dropped (could be the new price, could be the season, could be popularity of home types, some LL algorithm, etc.), and I think we can agree that "tanked" is a fairly subjective term. If you're getting 50 sales a month (averaged from the past couple months) and you drop to 40, it's a bit inconclusive compared to going from 1000 average to 800. If your sales have only tanked for a month, there's no real conclusions to make because the sample size (products and maybe sales) and time frame is very small.

There could just be some confirmation bias at play, because like you said, increasing your prices is scary because if people don't like the new prices and you have no customers, what are you going to do? Going back might not bring them back. So because you have these fears in the back of your mind, you perceive any drop in sales to be proof that you were right to be worried.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator

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14 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

There could just be

I think Coffee knows her business better than you're imagining.

And I also think it's time for you to leave the thread and let the serious merchants continue to discuss what concerns them.

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33 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think Coffee knows her business better than you're imagining.

And I also think it's time for you to leave the thread and let the serious merchants continue to discuss what concerns them.

She replied to me.

Maybe you should let her speak for herself? She can handle a conversation.

I also have a store through an alt as well. It made 27'650 L$ this year, 2300 L$ average. 7 listings, 6 of them 50L and one 100L. I'm just as real of a merchant as she is.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator

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34 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 think it's time for you to leave the thread

ah we get the good old Luna back ... was already wondering where she would hide

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43 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think Coffee knows her business better than you're imagining.

And I also think it's time for you to leave the thread and let the serious merchants continue to discuss what concerns them.

No doubt on point one.

Is it OK if us  'not serious merchants' (however you define that) read along if we keep out traps shut? :)

 

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8 minutes ago, mikka Luik said:
53 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think Coffee knows her business better than you're imagining.

And I also think it's time for you to leave the thread and let the serious merchants continue to discuss what concerns them.

No doubt on point one.

Is it OK if us  'not serious merchants' (however you define that) read along if we keep out traps shut? :)

Feel free to read along, and even speak!!  ;0   ....Well that depends though on what you have to say, and how you say it (just please don't say you are right because you are 'logical' vs us emotional dumb people PLEASE!....because nothing triggers me more, and you don't want a triggered Luna believe me...)   

Also, would be good to know how many hours you put in each week, as that's the main criteria for a serious merchant. 

Let's have it    :)    

Edited by Luna Bliss
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50 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I'm just as real of a merchant as she is.

I don't believe this is the only incarnation of CoffeeDuJour...

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1 hour ago, CoffeeDujour said:

I raised my prices by 25L$ (10 US pennies) around the start of this thread, my sales tanked across the board the day I did this and have remained there since.

Raising prices is something that fills the entire creative community with existential dread, for good reason.

I don't think it was your change. My sales have been absolutely horrible lately. I easily made half of what I made in November last year. Lots of maintenance this time of year. If SLMP and the grid is running well, November and December are usually one of the best times of the year for me. And if they are in bad shape, they can be some of the worst (year over year). I have a theory that more people than normal try and use SL this time of year. Winter is starting, they might be busy with holiday stuff but they probably want to escape into another world. And they try to go to SL more than normal and overload everything.

The announcement was very bad timing. They say they will raise commission and then they have lots of problems with the grid and SLMP. If they did something to SLMP and my profits were up I would gladly let them have their 10% commission. I would be glad they took it because it would be clear they were using the money to improve things and make both the Lab and us merchants more money. But honestly I am going through a stage of some of my worst sales every (and oddly enough the old stuff is the stuff that's selling) while they raise commission. And before it nose dived I was getting a very large amount of positive feedback about the quality of my new products. And then profits drop and I start selling really old stuff that's been outdated. Almost like people can't find the new stuff.

SL is a really cool place, and LL built something really cool that allowed a huge amount of people to add even more cool stuff to what they made. And I think their userbase is disappearing and the economy is slowing because people lose faith in SL being reliable. Who will go buy a ton of builder's kits to build on their land if they aren't confident SL will perform and let them build, or if they can even buy everything and not have issues.

Reading some of these other posts, people can  launch products that have potential to make passive income for the next 5+ years. Doing it is a no brainer, yet they are hesitant because they don't want to end up wasting time because they aren't confident the SLMP will be reliable enough to save a listing. I sell a lot of stuff for builders. If they want to enjoy my products and have fun they need to have a place to use them that is reliable and easy to build with. I want people to have fun with my stuff. I want them to build really cool stuff and make something awesome they can really enjoy. And knowing they are fighting SL to try and make what they want is a real bummer. I know it's costing me sales. So is the high cost of land.

I'm trying to get a build in world now, textures keep resetting, prim params keep resetting. Now I have to spend time testing because I'm not confident that what I see in my viewer is what others will see. Could easily end up where it looks textured on my computer and when someone gets it textures are missing.

I really love SL. I am grateful for what the lab has done. But they have serious issues they need to resolve. I would even say SL would be growing today if they had kept it more reliable and gave people confidence. I can only imagine the issues SL instability has caused. "Hey come check out this cool place SL, oh we can't log in today it's down maybe tomorrow", "I can't wait to build this really awesome place! Oh I can't log in or buy things"

 

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