The Lindens Explain What Happened the Other Day

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

6 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I like watching people freak out over outages and down time. It's one of my guilty pleasures on the forums. I laugh way too much at watching people seemingly go insane. There have been times int he past when it was down for days on end, as in, actually down for ALL, not just some, but all (this last outage didn't actually take the entire grid down at all, it took most of it down, but not all of it, there were still dozens of thousands online the whole time, that doesn't constitute an actual outage, but I digress). People freak out more and more as each outage or "downtime" happens. I can't help but find it hilarious (more so than it probably should be). Back in the day, it was annoying and we all still talked or complained about it now and then, but the freak out factor was way less. Now, someone gets logged out (for whatever reason) and the sky is falling -half the time it isn't even really an outage, lol. 

Usually I post this to threads when people start freaking out over any kind of outage...

We're all headed for a disaster of biblical proportions. Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

It annoys people, and that makes me laugh even more. I really like laughing, it's my favorite

I feel cheated I was not on Friday and missed all the fun.

[Blaise Glendevon]

These are the things I miss while I'm at work, I think.

[Pixieplumb Flanagan]

There was an outage?  oh.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 11/2/2019 at 8:25 AM, Alyona Su said:

They explained that it wasn't their system at all. It was their "telephone provider's" fault. Prok, sometimes you simply tend to over-analyze things. It's okay to plonk me for saying that as you usually do, I still respect you and your purview on things. Even when they can seem outlandish.

They didn't say "telephone provider". They merely said "Vendor". I asked vendor OF WHAT.

To all of your trying to be more hipster than thou in feigning indifference to whether SL is down for eight hours, that you work outside your home all day or part-time and therefore don't follow what is going on in SL (me, too), and all of you trying to prove that you "have a life" and that anyone who complains about this "has no life" or is screaming without their virtual fix for 10 minutes or somehow immature, imbecile, addicted, crazy, or whatever. You're wrong.

Um, it's about customers. Not only that we are customers to SL and they owe us service and explanations, because many of us pay for this service.

It's about *my customers* who assume, every time there is something wrong with SL - with 99% of the time is about either the software itself or lag causes by the user herself -- that this is about "MY land". They click refund, and go to another place they think is "less laggy" and "doesn't have the problems of Prokofy's land". That's why it matters.

It's especially difficult if someone is "closer to Arizona than me" and I can't log on and they can, and they are sending me angry IMs and emails, because they don't read the Grid Status that says don't buy, sell, rez, build or do anything except maybe chat. THAT is the problem.

So people who think it's "my land" or some other island owner's land need to realize it's a larger problem Well, that's fine, if it is true that it is "Prokofy's land", but most of the time it isn't. And they take their lag with them, or they go to another sim where also TPs don't work, or they can't rez things, or mesh bounces, and sometimes they convince themselves it is "better," and sometimes they simply log off or quit SL completely. But it is registered in their mind that the person whom they rent from is to blame. This is ok -- they are not supposed to have PhDs in physics to rent or buy in SL although they one is required to run a sim LOL.

For people whose RL work *is* SL (that would not be me), who make their living in SL, who are creators, merchants, etc. -- service outages affect their livelihood, and so they matter. And the Lindens need to give full reports of them (this was not a full report).

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Bradford Mint]

They don't need to say which vendor.

Read again https://www.lindenlab.com/tos

Specifically section 1.5 aka "Sh*t Happens Deal With It"

[Alwin Alcott]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

They click refund, and go to another place they think is "less laggy" and "doesn't have the problems of Prokofy's land". That's why it matters.

 they are sending me angry IMs and emails,

THAT is the problem.

But it is registered in their mind that the person whom they rent from is to blame.

and how does that feel?

[Alyona Su]

5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

They didn't say "telephone provider". They merely said "Vendor". I asked vendor OF WHAT.

This is actually the type of rebuttal many speak of. I'd give you a pass if you were ESL, but you're not. Anyone as familiar with the English language as you are knows the "telephone provider" bit was not meant as a literal description. This is the angst you wreak, Prok. Other than this first line of yours, the rest is fair and legitimate, but your starting line in that comment is the hole in your Hindenburg that lets out most the air-worthiness of your argument.

[Pixieplumb Flanagan]

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

 

For people whose RL work *is* SL (that would not be me), who make their living in SL, who are creators, merchants, etc. -- service outages affect their livelihood, and so they matter. And the Lindens need to give full reports of them (this was not a full report).

 

snippety snip

 

That would be moi, actually, and I didn't notice.  Perhaps it was night time here and I was asleep, or maybe I was out buying the prosecco, vim and marmite that fuels my meat body (lolz).

Still, all better now, right?

ps. kidding about the marmite, obviously.  Oh, vim is a scouring powder, very good on burnt on stuff and lavatories (I'm told).

[Theresa Tennyson]

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

They didn't say "telephone provider". They merely said "Vendor". I asked vendor OF WHAT.

 

The blog post said "network provider" - they only started referring it to a "vendor" after they'd already said what it was.

Incidentally the KittyCats problems were with a different network/IT provider that KittyCats deals with instead of being with Second Life itself. That was mentioned in the notices from KittyCats.

[Jackson Redstar]

On 11/2/2019 at 7:40 PM, Tari Landar said:

I like watching people freak out over outages and down time. It's one of my guilty pleasures on the forums. I laugh way too much at watching people seemingly go insane. There have been times int he past when it was down for days on end, as in, actually down for ALL, not just some, but all (this last outage didn't actually take the entire grid down at all, it took most of it down, but not all of it, there were still dozens of thousands online the whole time, that doesn't constitute an actual outage, but I digress). People freak out more and more as each outage or "downtime" happens. I can't help but find it hilarious (more so than it probably should be). Back in the day, it was annoying and we all still talked or complained about it now and then, but the freak out factor was way less. Now, someone gets logged out (for whatever reason) and the sky is falling -half the time it isn't even really an outage, lol. 

Usually I post this to threads when people start freaking out over any kind of outage...

We're all headed for a disaster of biblical proportions. Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

It annoys people, and that makes me laugh even more. I really like laughing, it's my favorite

sometimes SL being down is no biggie, but remember people also work and or make plans in SL, often far in advance. Take a wedding, for example. Not to funny if SL is down for a wedding day you have planned on for months

[Bradford Mint]

16 minutes ago, Jackson Redstar said:

sometimes SL being down is no biggie, but remember people also work and or make plans in SL, often far in advance. Take a wedding, for example. Not to funny if SL is down for a wedding day you have planned on for months

Indeed but the crux of it is that the TOS that EVERYONE agrees to, yes even those who fail to read it, is that the service is provided as is with no guarantee.

1.5 The Service is subject to scheduled and unscheduled service interruptions and loss of server data, which you do not own and for which you will not hold us liable.

Linden Lab may on occasion need to interrupt the Service with or without prior notice. You agree that Linden Lab will not be liable for any interruption of the Service (whether intentional or not), and you understand that except as may otherwise be specifically provided in Linden Lab's billing policies, posted on applicable areas of the Service and/or Website(s), you will not be entitled to any refunds of fees or other compensation for interruption of service.

There is no SLA, there is no compensation so like it or not so there's no point even wasting time complaining about it or demanding full answers is just drama for the sake of it and someone who has been here as long as the OP should know this.

[Garnet Psaltery]

7 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's about *my customers*  [...] They click refund, and go to another place they think is "less laggy" and "doesn't have the problems of Prokofy's land". That's why it matters.[...] 'they are sending me angry IMs and emails [...]THAT is the problem. 

Well, that explains it.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Jackson Redstar said:

sometimes SL being down is no biggie, but remember people also work and or make plans in SL, often far in advance. Take a wedding, for example. Not to funny if SL is down for a wedding day you have planned on for months

Yeah, really sucks when your virtual wedding cant happen due to internet interruptions, couldn't possibly reschedule that.. Not like say.. a freaking hurricane.. 

 

[Luna Bliss]

I like witnessing the passion people feel for SL --  a demonstration of how SL matters to them. Perhaps LL should have planned outages so people realize the value of SL...lol.  Do people's emotions go over the top sometimes, well probably so...but I can't be the judge for what matters/doesn't matter for other people and the degree they should experience/express it, though I draw the line at out-and-out fits of Biblical proportions.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Luna Bliss

[Prokofy Neva]

1 hour ago, Bradford Mint said:

Indeed but the crux of it is that the TOS that EVERYONE agrees to, yes even those who fail to read it, is that the service is provided as is with no guarantee.

1.5 The Service is subject to scheduled and unscheduled service interruptions and loss of server data, which you do not own and for which you will not hold us liable.

Linden Lab may on occasion need to interrupt the Service with or without prior notice. You agree that Linden Lab will not be liable for any interruption of the Service (whether intentional or not), and you understand that except as may otherwise be specifically provided in Linden Lab's billing policies, posted on applicable areas of the Service and/or Website(s), you will not be entitled to any refunds of fees or other compensation for interruption of service.

There is no SLA, there is no compensation so like it or not so there's no point even wasting time complaining about it or demanding full answers is just drama for the sake of it and someone who has been here as long as the OP should know this.

You're too young to remember when the Lindens DID IN FACT compensate residents when their service was down. Imagine that! In the earlier days they would be down for as long as two days, and they sent out a kind of stipend when that happened.

It's not about drama; it's about service. You don't take this attitude toward your RL electric company or phone company so there's no need to take it with SL, which is no different. It's a service. Many pay for it -- which by the way, enables the people not paying to enjoy it. 

My original post thanks the Lindens for following through on their promise to do a longer post, but asks the basic question of WHICH VENDOR OF WHAT. We have never gotten a clear statement about "the cloud" for the general public; telling fellow techies in office hours is not telling the public. Yes or no? And what effects does that have? 

I always marvel at the "aggressive, belligerent silent majority" here that will take any amount of mystery and abuse from the Lindens but think their fellow residents who ask basic, normal questions as one would do in RL are some sort of partisan rebels in the forest who should be crushed.

[Bradford Mint]

13 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's not about drama; it's about service. You don't take this attitude toward your RL electric company or phone company so there's no need to take it with SL, which is no different. It's a service. Many pay for it -- which by the way, enables the people not paying to enjoy it.

There is a published SLA for those services.  It's actually pretty rubbish too.  My mobile phone provider was down for 2 days a week or so ago in some parts.  It didn't affect me at all and for those who were affected, the amount was £20...if you claimed...and if it was supported with evidence.

I'm sure you understand the concept of a Service Level Agreement?  I'm not sure that you do, point being (for the third time now) is that SL does not offer one and if you got a stipend back at the beginning of SL, that sounds like just a goodwill gesture to save their new players from leaving.  Those sorts of payment stop when the environment is fully established, just like they have stopped.

Find the part in the TOS that defines the SLA that says that service users are entitled to full reports of service outage, it's probably right next to the part that says how much compensation that LL will pay to every registered account, active on a daily basis or not.

Further, the fact that many pay?  Again, i'll refer you to the part of the TOS 1.5.  No sh*ts given by LL.  I don't consider you a partisan rebel, just someone who appears unclear as to what the TOS actually offers as compensation.  It's clear to me, not worth fussing over.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Bradford Mint

[Luna Bliss]

15 minutes ago, Bradford Mint said:

28 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's not about drama; it's about service. You don't take this attitude toward your RL electric company or phone company so there's no need to take it with SL, which is no different. It's a service. Many pay for it -- which by the way, enables the people not paying to enjoy it.

  Again, i'll refer you to the part of the TOS 1.5.  No sh*ts given by LL.  

"Because the rules say so" is not a good argument in this case. Despite what the TOS dictates, if anything bothers enough residents in SL I'm fairly sure LL would address it in some way. Not that the few outages which occur in recent times would provoke enough people to protest and effect a change -- I'm only saying your premise of "because the rules say so" is not effective in this discussion.

[Bradford Mint]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

"Because the rules say so" is not a good argument in this case. Despite what the TOS dictates, if anything bothers enough residents in SL I'm fairly sure LL would address it in some way. Not that the few outages which occur in recent times would provoke enough people to protest and effect a change -- I'm only saying your premise of "because the rules say so" is not effective in this discussion.

Key point highlighted there which is the subject in question which in this case makes a good argument of "because the rules say so"

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Bradford Mint said:

8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Not that the few outages which occur in recent times would provoke enough people to protest and effect a change -- I'm only saying your premise of "because the rules say so" is not effective in this discussion.

Key point highlighted there which is the subject in question which in this case makes a good argument of "because the rules say so"

So how many people does it have to disturb, and to what degree, before anybody has the right to complain?  How do you determine when the 'complaint level' has been reached?

[Bradford Mint]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

So how many people does it have to disturb, and to what degree, before anybody has the right to complain?  How do you determine when the 'complaint level' has been reached?

That's a question that should be posed to LL.  They set the TOS, not me.  BTW, people always have the right to complain, just that it might confer no rights with regard to remediation, per whatever TOS they've agreed and signed up to.

[Prokofy Neva]

18 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

So how many people does it have to disturb, and to what degree, before anybody has the right to complain?  How do you determine when the 'complaint level' has been reached?

Agreed.

Eight hours is a long time. That's a full work-day. The Lindens did everything they could, it appears. Likely it's not a situation that requires compensation. But this belligerent attitude that the Lindens and their fanz are always right, that no one can ever protest -- it's got to go. It doesn't work that in RL and doesn't have to work that way here. And again, my initial point is that I don't understand which vendor let them down, and why, and whether they moved to the cloud, or not.

It's very, very important to understand for those who take a smug statist view about the Lab that they have changed their TOS over the years many, many times, and sometimes because of major protests from the user base; sometimes from law-enforcement in RL; and sometimes to limit their liability, as any corporation does.  So the user is not required to lie back and do nothing when these things happen, merely because of language in the TOS. 

BTW, a judge ruled that the TOS is a contract of adhesion, Mr. Lawyer. Again, in real life, these aren't good practices.

It used to be that one could invoke the fact that IBM or Sears or Harvard were in SL, that it was time to be grown up and provide roadmaps and explanations better. Did SL move to the cloud? Will it? Is this working or not? What can the user expect? Anyone who wants to invest more in SL would need to know those questions.

But now there's just us chickens. There are no more IBMs or Harvards, so they don't feel they have to pull up their socks.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Tari Landar]

3 hours ago, Jackson Redstar said:

sometimes SL being down is no biggie, but remember people also work and or make plans in SL, often far in advance. Take a wedding, for example. Not to funny if SL is down for a wedding day you have planned on for months

Nope, still funny

Sl was my entire livelihood for a long time (4+ years), as in, paid all of my rl bills, not just my sl play funny money, but real actual cold hard cash to pay my mortgage, utilities, grocery bill, other bills, plus play funny money in sl. I've been just as affected by outages as everyone else, and back in....the year of our spaghetti lord two thousand and eight plus one...it was down for days on end for the whole grid ( this recent one wasn't even a full outage, there were literally 24,000+ people on the ENTIRE time it was down for others) and the entire ordeal actually lasted a month. That was literally a month's worth of next to no income (might as well call it no income-that's really what it amounted to in the end, especially since *I* had to refund people purchases they made and never got, because I'm not a dillweed, but the goods up and vanished). That's a tough pill to swallow

I still laughed while choking it down

If you can't laugh at the stupid ***** in life, you'll make yourself miserable. And as much as I can identify with "rl plans had to be made for pixel events" and "pixel events mean a great deal to me in rl"(I'm not mocking either, I actually do commiserate, especially important events, I 100% understand that feeling), it's still not worth going all chicken little and screaming about the sky falling and going cuckoo over a wee bit of down time. ***** happens, even in rl, that's what backup plans are for. When I see people acting like it's the end of the world, like LL has slighted them, like they're owed something for the incident, I laugh...because why the hell not. I'm not mocking people when I do, it's just something I find overly humorous. I truly enjoy laughing and often find it to be my best medicine. Others' mileage may vary, but no one here can change my mileage, just as I can't change their mileage.

Then again..I'm pretty strange, but I will laugh whenever it tickles my pickle to do so

 

 

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

The grid's been working so much better than it used to, and given the complexity of all the pieces that need to talk to each other to make it all work, the outage left me feeling more impressed than upset. Yeah, I wanted to go inworld and couldn't. But isn't it so very cool that we have this amazing world to go into at all?

That was my reaction, recognition that overall the grid is doing alright.

[Bradford Mint]

31 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Did SL move to the cloud? Will it? Is this working or not? What can the user expect? Anyone who wants to invest more in SL would need to know those questions.

Just to pick up on this piece, why do you think you need to know?

Your service is provided by LL, the cloud provider (if relevant) provides service to LL.  Do you know what material the pipes are made of that transport your domestic water?  Which route they take? What redundancy they have in place?  What their operational plans are for a targeted terrorist attack?  My guess is no.  You pay your water company against an SLA and they in turn deliver you water, in accordance with that SLA (or not).

You're over thinking it and yes, you can complain, you can ask whatever questions but that doesn't mean they'll listen or respond.

[Ardy Lay]

Internet access provider is a vendor.  I see my packets take a different, shorter, less lossy route now.  Saying in public which "vendor" was causing the problem is bad business practice and is likely not permitted by Linden Lab's own rules for how we and they use this forum.