Bellisseria Choo-Choo Train Thread

[Nika Talaj]

Abnor has been busy laying more green proto-track & building bridges!  The map hasn't quite caught up to what he did.  You may have to squint to see the new dark green track and gray bridges in the pic below, I tried to goose it but the green background obscures things a bit. The bright green segment exists on the land but isn't showing on the map yet.  Basically, new track extends from Randelsham Forest up to SSPE1195!  The short aqua line connecting the existing northern track to the new railway bridge does not exist as yet. 

The climb from Dos Hermanos up to the bridge to Randelsham will be quite dramatic!

The Mountain Line crosses Big Bird Lake 3 times in these new segments:

• > green proto-bridge at Dos Hermanos
• > railway bridge in SSPE 1130
• > railway bridge at the southern edge of Wazoo

 

[Nika Talaj]

OMGAWD just found this!  LOOKEEE LOOKEE!!!! The Mountain Line will extend all the way to the east!!!!!!

The bright green lines, as well as the dark green ones, already exist on the ground, tho the map hasn't quite caught up.

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Nika Talaj

[Nika Talaj]

15 hours ago, Nika Talaj said:

The short aqua line connecting the existing northern track to the new railway bridge does not exist as yet. 

 

Abnor has just laid the aqua portion of the track.

[Nika Talaj]

And Abnor goes on ... the east extension now curves past Grampas, following the curve of the coastal mountains, actually going through a pass at one point to run along the ocean for a couple of regions, then back inside the mountain range to run straight north up through the line of SSPE regions right next to the already released Log Home regions, until it runs out of land next to Faraday.

[Nika Talaj]

If anyone cares, Abnor has extended both the east and west legs of the Mountain Line so that they are brought to an end at the raw northern edges of the subcontinent.  They do not have terminating blocks, though, so it is reasonable to assume that when regions become available again, those edges will be finished with more LogLand regions.  This is SSPE1111, the other leg ends at SSPE1217.

 

Perhaps the two legs will be joined so as to form a big loop?  That would be nice!

 

[Daniel Voyager]

This is the new railway extension marked on the map in red and in blue. On the map it's marked as a green line while the Moles continue to complete the new railway track.

Possible New Stations - the railway line expands in these sections!

• http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SSPE1193/168/132/52
• http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SSPE1129/76/241/66
• http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SSPE1127/139/247/65
• http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SSPE1124/89/226/66
• http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SSPE1119/142/158/69
• http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SSPE1116/16/180/66
• http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SSPE1111/15/189/66

It's expected more railway tracks and new stations will placed down heading up north once Second Life is moved to the cloud estimated to finish later this year. 

It's going to be awesome once the logs home continent is finished. 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Daniel Voyager

[animats]

Are the signals, switches, and passing tracks usable yet? Are there enough rez zones yet? It's nice having all the track, but it's hard to use it.

[Nika Talaj]

32 minutes ago, animats said:

Are the signals, switches, and passing tracks usable yet? Are there enough rez zones yet? It's nice having all the track, but it's hard to use it.

No.  In Logland, itt's not actually track yet, it's green prim slabs just to show where the track will go.  See my pic above.

[arabellajones]

I have been trying for a while to figure out how to get some sort of "current" scripting for trains. The old SLRR scripts have options that just cannot work on the Bellisaria lines because of the different land permissions. I know one or two people have been trying other ideas. We don't really need a fully-working rail system, but I do get a feeling that some details are no more than decoration. Will some of the passing loops ever work?

The newest section, marked red on some of the maps above, does suggest a possible east-west connection to form a closed loop. I know there has been talk of a connection to the north east, linking to that huge set of continents, but I do wonder if it will be ever worth it. Even a water link would need more coastal waterway along the continent edges, and, after some poor experiences of existing roads in the finished areas of the Loglands, it doesn't feel like much fun driving them.

But, assume road or rail to Satori, as a long term prospect. Could a rail system ever be built for Satori? The road system is fragmented. There are places on all continents where short new road connections are possible but will it ever happen? Can an existing continent ever be more than an unconnectable dead end? So many ways of using Second Life have been developed, variations have been tried, yet we seem trapped with mistakes such as roads crossing region corners.

[Prokofy Neva]

So I got a Bellissaria camping spot and saw a raildroad track and at first I was excited, I thought I would get out some trains and ride them. Contrary to what some people imagine, I actually like railroads, bought lots of land on the Moth Continent near them, once had a building contest related to them (which the Lindens then pre-empted by making a railroad station building contest), and I like to ride them now and again. In fact, in Grote and nearby sims, I had either given right of way or sold at a cheap price land that was needed for a resident-run RR, which I supported.

For my trouble, I was rewarded with a giant concrete overpass that blighted the view for everyone on two sims. It was fun to ride along that rail and look down fleetingly as you went by on the nice pond and builds people had made, but it was not fun looking up at that concrete overpass all the time. And that is the essence of Mainland. My land next to this concrete monster did not rent or sell and got abandoned, as did other people's land. Finally, that person went away and took their RR with them. Then some gadflies who don't own very much land began to lobby the Moles to re-build this RR along this Linden "Right of Way". In the ensuing years, the Lindens had sold part of their "right of way" on the auction. A land baron bought some of it; I bought it from him; I got my abandoned land back; I made a nicer area. These lobbiest began to concoct a fable about how I had somehow "forced myself" on to Linden land (which they themselves had sold, whether intentionally or not is not my problem). Michael Linden began building along this right of way and some of us complained -- why should we a) have to give up our land possibly again b) more to the point, have an ugly high-rise? The Lindens had abandoned land all over hell's half acre -- they could re-route their SLRR in a different area even with overpasses and not destroy a pond, already suffering from Linden parceling that enabled a person who owned the middle of it to block everybody. 

Anyway, I decided to read up on the new SLRR in Bellissaria and it's a good thing I did because I found that it had these rules:

o You can't jump on it anywhere, this would upset its switching. Since I only found out this rule accidentally by reading the forums, and there were no signs or anything, I do wonder how the Lindens can enforce this as they build out Bellissaria.

o You had to wait at any red traffic lot, even if it was 10 minutes, or there would be derailments. Again, no signs telling you to do this, at least not yet.

Well, that was a disappointment and a mystery. On the old SLRR, you could jump on anywhere. In fact the green spam buses/train cars go on there all the time, as do various enthusiasts in rail clubs and single people using freebies or trains they bought. (Sadly my Hellraiser engine is lost in an inventory loss).

I wonder if this is a temporary thing, but it's annoying if permanent. I realize the old SLRR had its problems, I would ride up in the air and turn around or crash accidentally but it worked for years. In any event, I went dutifully to one of the two rez stations given, which was kind of scrappy, but that's ok, I realize it's still under construction. I had a nice ride and then had to stop. I waited probably 10 minutes then I abandoned ship. Well, if there is only one rail that's what you have to do I guess.

I wonder if it is possible to lay track right next to the Linden roads. That would be on easements that people have come to take for granted so many not. In any event, I look forward to learning whether these rules are eternal and what comes next. I was inspired to investigate this by Daniel Voyager's post about a new tunnel which I did not find yet but will.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Prokofy Neva

[Daniel Voyager]

On 9/24/2020 at 5:53 AM, Prokofy Neva said:

So I got a Bellissaria camping spot and saw a raildroad track and at first I was excited, I thought I would get out some trains and ride them. Contrary to what some people imagine, I actually like railroads, bought lots of land on the Moth Continent near them, once had a building contest related to them (which the Lindens then pre-empted by making a railroad station building contest), and I like to ride them now and again. In fact, in Grote and nearby sims, I had either given right of way or sold at a cheap price land that was needed for a resident-run RR, which I supported.

For my trouble, I was rewarded with a giant concrete overpass that blighted the view for everyone on two sims. It was fun to ride along that rail and look down fleetingly as you went by on the nice pond and builds people had made, but it was not fun looking up at that concrete overpass all the time. And that is the essence of Mainland. My land next to this concrete monster did not rent or sell and got abandoned, as did other people's land. Finally, that person went away and took their RR with them. Then some gadflies who don't own very much land began to lobby the Moles to re-build this RR along this Linden "Right of Way". In the ensuing years, the Lindens had sold part of their "right of way" on the auction. A land baron bought some of it; I bought it from him; I got my abandoned land back; I made a nicer area. These lobbiest began to concoct a fable about how I had somehow "forced myself" on to Linden land (which they themselves had sold, whether intentionally or not is not my problem). Michael Linden began building along this right of way and some of us complained -- why should we a) have to give up our land possibly again b) more to the point, have an ugly high-rise? The Lindens had abandoned land all over hell's half acre -- they could re-route their SLRR in a different area even with overpasses and not destroy a pond, already suffering from Linden parceling that enabled a person who owned the middle of it to block everybody. 

Anyway, I decided to read up on the new SLRR in Bellissaria and it's a good thing I did because I found that it had these rules:

o You can't jump on it anywhere, this would upset its switching. Since I only found out this rule accidentally by reading the forums, and there were no signs or anything, I do wonder how the Lindens can enforce this as they build out Bellissaria.

o You had to wait at any red traffic lot, even if it was 10 minutes, or there would be derailments. Again, no signs telling you to do this, at least not yet.

Well, that was a disappointment and a mystery. On the old SLRR, you could jump on anywhere. In fact the green spam buses/train cars go on there all the time, as do various enthusiasts in rail clubs and single people using freebies or trains they bought. (Sadly my Hellraiser engine is lost in an inventory loss).

I wonder if this is a temporary thing, but it's annoying if permanent. I realize the old SLRR had its problems, I would ride up in the air and turn around or crash accidentally but it worked for years. In any event, I went dutifully to one of the two rez stations given, which was kind of scrappy, but that's ok, I realize it's still under construction. I had a nice ride and then had to stop. I waited probably 10 minutes then I abandoned ship. Well, if there is only one rail that's what you have to do I guess.

I wonder if it is possible to lay track right next to the Linden roads. That would be on easements that people have come to take for granted so many not. In any event, I look forward to learning whether these rules are eternal and what comes next. I was inspired to investigate this by Daniel Voyager's post about a new tunnel which I did not find yet but will.

The new tunnels are located here http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SSPE1461/121/82/41 - head northeast for the other one  

[Prokofy Neva]

On 9/26/2020 at 6:25 AM, Daniel Voyager said:

The new tunnels are located here http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SSPE1461/121/82/41 - head northeast for the other one  

Thanks a lot!

Do you know if 

a) these rules I have cited are true and

b) they are permanent?

[Squeaky Mole]

17 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Thanks a lot!

Do you know if 

a) these rules I have cited are true and

b) they are permanent?

There are no "rules" for the railroad.  However we do have some suggestions.

You are correct on the matter that we recommend not to rez outside official sllr  rez zones. I'll explain below why.

It is also strongly recommended to not bypass red signals. Both of these are because of simple reasons.

The Linden Homes railroad as you may have noticed is only one track for both directions. This is because of space and land impact limitations.

What this means is that we had to create a custom SLLR system, the Linden Homes system works based on section control. The tracks detect when a section is being used and turns the signals red/unavailable.

If someone bypasses the red signals or rezzes outside of the designed sections the track will not know what directions trains are coming from and it may result in you crashing head on into another person.
 

That said, there's also safety trigger on each section so when people "cheat" it will reset within a few minutes and do no real damage. So no, there's no rules.
 

On that note: as the railroad mole I can confirm not everything is working yet as I haven't had much time to keep up but I'm chasing the decor crew daily. You can often easily spot unfinished sections by the lights. Orange or blinking means it's not completed yet. I also noticed some older scripts have bugged out since traditional and I'm working on fixing that too.
 

If you spot anything broken fee free to contact me directly or contact Linden Lab through support ticket and they will let me know.
 

More railroad fixes are coming soon!

 

[animats]

Delay in block. Somerville, southbound.

After passing about four sidings with good signal behavior, I reached this. Red on both branches. Waited 10 minutes, no change.

That looks incorrect. Both the main line and the siding are empty. If the signal system has detected an oncoming train in the block ahead, it should put me on the siding and hold me there until the other train reaches the siding and clears the block ahead. For that I should get a red leaving the siding. This indication means the signal system detects the siding as  full, I think.

[Squeaky Mole]

Delay in block is correct. Though to simplify it in Second Life I rather say sections so hopefully everyone understands it.

I will look at those issues this week but if you can please directly IM me in world with the slurl. It would be easier for me to jump and fix something quickly.

[animats]

IM sent as requested. Red/Red signal is at http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Timpson/246/249/32

[arabellajones]

22 hours ago, Squeaky Mole said:

Delay in block is correct. Though to simplify it in Second Life I rather say sections so hopefully everyone understands it.

I will look at those issues this week but if you can please directly IM me in world with the slurl. It would be easier for me to jump and fix something quickly.

I know a little bit about RL block section working (some of it gossip when I was in RL hospital a few years ago) as it's been the standard in Britain for a really long time. Single line working has some extra complications over tokens (and special machines were developed to allow multiple tokens, only one in use at a time). What I have seen, signals and such, suggests an imperfect model of a British prototype.

 

This movie shows how you should do it.

 

[Squeaky Mole]

5 hours ago, animats said:

IM sent as requested. Red/Red signal is at http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Timpson/246/249/32

Thank you, I'll see if I can take a look at that today.

[AlettaMondragon]

On 9/28/2020 at 2:03 AM, Squeaky Mole said:

There are no "rules" for the railroad.  However we do have some suggestions.

You are correct on the matter that we recommend not to rez outside official sllr  rez zones. I'll explain below why.

It is also strongly recommended to not bypass red signals. Both of these are because of simple reasons.

The Linden Homes railroad as you may have noticed is only one track for both directions. This is because of space and land impact limitations.

What this means is that we had to create a custom SLLR system, the Linden Homes system works based on section control. The tracks detect when a section is being used and turns the signals red/unavailable.

If someone bypasses the red signals or rezzes outside of the designed sections the track will not know what directions trains are coming from and it may result in you crashing head on into another person.
 

That said, there's also safety trigger on each section so when people "cheat" it will reset within a few minutes and do no real damage. So no, there's no rules.

 

In my experience while riding through the railroad on Belli for fun and to see new developments (and new or fixed trouble spots) occasionally, one thing is 100% sure: anything that is sensor-based works unreliably at best.

This starts with the crossings. Apparently, most crossing signals get activated by their respective sensor from only one direction, or the sensor is too close to the crossing, and in a laggy region you already pass the crossing by the time the signals get activated. Either way, most of time you already passed the crossing when the barriers go down.

The same appears to be the problem with this automatic section control system. Especially since there are stations and junctions with manual switches, which make it more complicated, but are necessary. (And, to be honest, a mostly manual system would be easier and better for most people.) So when I'm approaching a loop, and there is no other train on the line after the loop, I should be able to stay on the main line, without being forced onto the siding. However, based on direction, this is what happens on most loops. If you approach from the "opposite" direction of the apparent "preferred" direction, the system forces you to the siding, no matter there isn't another train not only on the section you'd proceed onto, but on whole Bellisseria at the time. So this is either a programming issue, or the respective sensors don't work properly, but it doesn't make any sense. It would only make sense if there was indeed a train approaching from the opposite direction, so that you would have to wait for it to pass.

At some switches, including Chippewa Junction station, where you can manually set the switch, but there is some kind of this same automatic control, no matter you set the switch to either position, you will be quite randomly routed to either line, and while at the station it doesn't mean any kind of issue other than being annoying, at the switch in Mountebank though, you would want to stay on the line that doesn't break at the river, so the unreliable switch is quite problematic.

There's also the signal bridge in Deermoor that is accidentally named "Guide" and makes most locomotives shift up into it and get stuck, but you already know about that one. (Right?)

I haven't focused on the particular issues at each site, especially not with the sensors, crossing signals and switches, but if it helps, I can collect more specific details.

[Eirynne Sieyes]

I am not clear why it matters so much if there is a collision. I have had trains pass through me in Belli if one of us was going faster than the other. At least this was true a few months ago.

And if two trains on the same track are going in opposite directions, don't they just pass through each other? 

[Rabid Cheetah]

6 hours ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

I am not clear why it matters so much if there is a collision. I have had trains pass through me in Belli if one of us was going faster than the other. At least this was true a few months ago.

And if two trains on the same track are going in opposite directions, don't they just pass through each other? 

No, this creates tremendous problems, requiring the Moles to build new tracks around the two stuck trains.

[Eirynne Sieyes]

46 minutes ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

No, this creates tremendous problems, requiring the Moles to build new tracks around the two stuck trains.

No trains have ever gotten stuck. They have just passed through each other, so I still don't get it.

[Squeaky Mole]

15 minutes ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

No trains have ever gotten stuck. They have just passed through each other, so I still don't get it.

A lot of full time rail fans would get very annoyed by being run over while their trying to role play. 

As an example while building new tracks or working on fixing parts I have multiple slow down and stop in front of me role playing someone is on the tracks.

Everyone sees things differently and we can't make it perfect for everyone but we aim for the best solution of both worlds.

In the end the railroad is mostly build for railroad role players. Same for boat docks, roads and everything certain residents may role play. But of course it's free to use for everyone including casual explorers.

Some parts of the tracks are still not working and we know about this. Fixes get made when time allows. 

(Send from phone so sorry for any stupid auto corrections :p)

[AlettaMondragon]

7 hours ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

I am not clear why it matters so much if there is a collision. I have had trains pass through me in Belli if one of us was going faster than the other. At least this was true a few months ago.

And if two trains on the same track are going in opposite directions, don't they just pass through each other? 

 

I think most SLRR vehicles work as non-physical, and it also allows them to be set to phantom, since they won't fall through the tracks for example. The non-phys operation means they won't collide with other non-physical objects. This isn't even especially important with oncoming trains, but the really tight corners with rocks and things, if you have a real-sized loco, that won't clear any of them, and being physical (and solid) would make it crash into all the rocks all the time.

A non-physical train is also absolutely solid, if not set to phantom, because it can't be pushed away. It will, however, brutally push away physical ones, so you don't want to encounter one head-on.

If all trains move non-physically, they can easily "go through" each other without any problem. If at least one of them is non-phys and phantom, it's still fine. There's the possibility of at least one being physical, so in that case yes, they would collide. I also like the idea of making the system somewhat realistic, so the block control is fine. As I explained above, it's the current implementation that doesn't work well.

 

1 hour ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

No, this creates tremendous problems, requiring the Moles to build new tracks around the two stuck trains.

 

Ah, now I see clearly, along with the video Arabella posted above, the issue is that the system isn't overcomplicated enough! We humans love to do that, so it should be done on the new SLRR too! LL should consider hiring a lot of full-time SLRR workers, like Station Masters, Signalmans, Switch Operators, and Pilotmans, and everything would work properly, while filling and signing tons of forms. Sign me up for the Pilotman job, it looks fun!

[Eirynne Sieyes]

OK, now it makes sense. But, I make sure all my trains are phantom so I don't have to worry about this stuff. Isn't that a better solution than this business about waiting at lights, going in the same direction, etc?

ADDED: I just read @Squeaky Mole's post on rp that I missed earlier. That had never occurred to me. Now it makes more sense. Thank you.

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Eirynne Sieyes
clarity & more