Is there still a reason for not being able to purchase homesteads with no full estate?

[Seba Serpente]

Giving the recent changes on Second Life server handling.... is there any reason still for this?

[Fox Wijaya]

8 minutes ago, Seba Serpente said:

Giving the recent changes on Second Life server handling.... is there any reason still for this?

just a  few ; riots and loosing estate owners, support overload

[Jules Catlyn]

Yes probably a commercial one. I also think that it would give LL a lot of administrative hassle from people getting them at will and then realizing they cant afford them. But hey, you can always rent one!

 

[Seba Serpente]

1 minute ago, Jules Catlyn said:

Yes probably a commercial one. I also think that it would give LL a lot of administrative hassle from people getting them at will and then realizing they cant afford them. But hey, you can always rent one!

 

But you can bet i'll get them some good profits only with the fees.. is a win anyhow!

[Qie Niangao]

One might think the Estates wouldn't care if the Lab offered standalone Homesteads to non-Estate owners at or above the average rent the Estates charge for the product.

I've never heard them explain it. Maybe Homestead renters eventually graduate to full-sim renters, which is presumably a higher margin product.

(But now that I think of it, I don't understand the Estate sim rental business at all. Why would I ever rent a full sim from an Estate when I can buy one and pay the fees directly to the Lab? Maybe Estate managers provide some value to renters who aren't equipped to do it all themselves? Or could it just be that initial outlay, which the Estates presumably amortize over months or years of rent?)

Edited June 4, 2019 by Qie Niangao

[Jules Catlyn]

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Why would I ever rent a full sim from an Estate when I can buy one and pay the fees directly to the Lab?

Because for that you need to have a premium account and some don't want to invest in that for whatever reason they have.

 

[Qie Niangao]

Are we maybe talking about different things? It's my impression that one can own a one-region Estate without paying Premium membership. (Right?)

The upfront cost of acquiring an Estate region exceed the Premium subscription fee, so maybe it's not a practical distinction anyway?

[Parhelion Palou]

56 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Are we maybe talking about different things? It's my impression that one can own a one-region Estate without paying Premium membership. (Right?)

The upfront cost of acquiring an Estate region exceed the Premium subscription fee, so maybe it's not a practical distinction anyway?

You're right -- there's no need for premium membership to own any number of private regions. The reason to rent a region is generally to avoid the upfront cost of buying one because you don't plan on using it long-term or you can't come up with the initial cost.

[Sasy Scarborough]

@Qie Niangao yes you can own a region without premium but there was a time when it was believed that you could not and that still holds for many, which has meant that many have doubled down on paying for a lot of years because they believed it to be true. In 2006 I know everyone thought that and did it that way. 

[Victorian Magic]

Last time they let people buy stand alone homesteads some people overloaded them HORRIBLY  and since homesteads are berthed -what 16 -to a server a lot of owners complained their new dream home/store was a mud pit.

Many dreams died and great creators/builders left because of this when they had to close up because the tier was raised. It was heartbreaking.

The new homestead owners were 99% existing tier paying residents so it impacted private estate owners-losing large parcel renters.

Standalone homesteads berthed at , say 8 to a server, for a higher tier, would be great, but would still impact private estates.

 

[Fox Wijaya]

On 6/5/2019 at 2:18 AM, Jules Catlyn said:

Because for that you need to have a premium account and some don't want to invest in that for whatever reason they have.

 

you don't have to be premium to own a full sim, only for mainland.
[ok edit... should read donw more...nr 3 telling it now ]

Edited June 6, 2019 by Fox Wijaya

[Qie Niangao]

8 hours ago, Victorian Magic said:

Last time they let people buy stand alone homesteads some people overloaded them HORRIBLY  ...

Was there in fact a time when one could own a standalone Homestead -- bought directly from Linden Lab, not rented through an Estate -- without first owning at least one full-prim Estate sim? That's not my recollection, but I could be mistaken. Rather, I thought the Homestead fee debacle arose on Estate rentals (sometimes one region per tenant, sometimes many rented parcels per region) and yes, much overloaded, before the Lab imposed practical limits on the product and very substantially and abruptly raised the fees.

[Mollymews]

5 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Was there in fact a time when one could own a standalone Homestead -- bought directly from Linden Lab, not rented through an Estate -- without first owning at least one full-prim Estate sim?

yes you are remembering right.  Was about April 2006 that the then Open Space regions were first available. They were only on sale to estate owners. To be an estate then needed to have a full region.  Had to buy 4 Open Spaces as 1 purchase. As in those days it was 1 full region per core, and 4 open spaces per core. 4 open spaces were the same tier as 1 full region

in about March 2008 when the then open space regions were changed to homesteads ( 3 per core at that time -  at an increase in price)  and void (the new open space) regions (still 4 per core at that time - at a reduced price). The homesteads could be bought as singles but the estate rule still applied

 

 

[Alyona Su]

1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

yes you are remembering right.  Was about April 2006 that the then Open Space regions were first available. They were only on sale to estate owners. To be an estate then needed to have a full region.  Had to buy 4 Open Spaces as 1 purchase. As in those days it was 1 full region per core, and 4 open spaces per core. 4 open spaces were the same tier as 1 full region

in about March 2008 when the then open space regions were changed to homesteads ( 3 per core at that time -  at an increase in price)  and void (the new open space) regions (still 4 per core at that time - at a reduced price). The homesteads could be bought as singles but the estate rule still applied

 

 

You may be misremembering somewhat, but otherwise correct.

It was 2007 or 2008 when LL introduced Homestead regions, which could be purchased stand-alone. But then sales of full regions tanked as people opted for Homesteads and broke the rules (they were specifically designed for light-weight use, not commercial use at all). Then a few weeks (months?) later they introduce the OpenSpace regions and initially, those were available ala carte but must own a full region first. I owned about 5 regions back then, so I remember it well. They were roleplay regions and another estate owner wanted to attach to my main region and we decided to plop an OpenSpace between us as forest land (but they over-filled to the laggy junk from Botanical - ugh).

I only vaguely remember when they changed the policy that you must own a full region before you can buy a Homestead region, those I do better remember when they said Open Space regions were only in a bundle of four.

I am sure I am misremembering some things, mostly dates, but I clearly remember how it "unfolded". LOL

If they allowed purchasing a Homestead region ala carte again, I'd jump on one, because I simply *refuse* to "rent* from another user. I pay to LL and only LL, ever.

[Qie Niangao]

Okay, well now I'm totally confused.

Here's an ancient archived forums discussion thread about Jack Linden's announcement about the fee rise, back when what we call "Homesteads" were still called "Openspaces" (which must have been before they renamed "void sims" to be the new "Openspaces" ?), in case it jogs anybody's memory.

In the quoted announcement (first post of that thread) I'm seeing something about how the original buyer and the monthly payor at one time could be different, so maybe that was how there could be "standalone" Homesteads at some point??

[Alyona Su]

45 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Okay, well now I'm totally confused.

Here's an ancient archived forums discussion thread about Jack Linden's announcement about the fee rise, back when what we call "Homesteads" were still called "Openspaces" (which must have been before they renamed "void sims" to be the new "Openspaces" ?), in case it jogs anybody's memory.

In the quoted announcement (first post of that thread) I'm seeing something about how the original buyer and the monthly payor at one time could be different, so maybe that was how there could be "standalone" Homesteads at some point??

That's possible (separate buyer/payer) - it's all foggy in human RAM right now LOL But I remember Homesteads being limited to 21 or 23 avatars (I seem to remember 21 as it was an odd number) and then they introduced the "voids" sims as openspace, which was even more limited; I recall the specific intent was for open water or forest, etc; mostly decoration as Sailing was just really starting to take off around that time (and some of the mini-continents were started around that time, I think)

But all of that fuzzy memory is almost moot, to answer the OP: to prevent everyone from buying Homesteads instead of full regions (as that's what happened in the beginning, the way I recall it) - it's to prevent cannibalism on full regions.

[Prokofy Neva]

I think the reason isn't so much server overload as it is customers grabbing huge bunches of these cheaper products and then re-renting them by chopping them up,

so that they, not the Lindens, get the tier from them, and don't even have the compensation of one island.

This is just the law of physics and human nature -- the cheapest product that can be flipped will be until the Lindens stop it (as they did with "First Land" when bots on endlessly spawned new accounts bought land meant for actual newbies and then flipped them).

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 6/6/2019 at 10:59 AM, Qie Niangao said:

Okay, well now I'm totally confused.

Here's an ancient archived forums discussion thread about Jack Linden's announcement about the fee rise, back when what we call "Homesteads" were still called "Openspaces" (which must have been before they renamed "void sims" to be the new "Openspaces" ?), in case it jogs anybody's memory.

In the quoted announcement (first post of that thread) I'm seeing something about how the original buyer and the monthly payor at one time could be different, so maybe that was how there could be "standalone" Homesteads at some point??

Remember when void sims were described as merely "a stretch of water". And were actually used as such by Anshe Chung and others with huge empires -- I think they are the ones that convinced Lindens to make these cheaper open sims.

To my recollection, "void" was separate from "open space" -- void had even less capacity in terms of prims and avatars. The open-space became "homestead".

There were standalones, but the Lindens ended this when bunches of them sold and were immediately flipped to say, 16 renters of chopped space, creating revenue for users, not Lindens, yet the same CS headaches or more, as no-show landlords who turned over management perms to renters would then complain to LL about lag and griefing.

[Garnet Psaltery]

On 6/4/2019 at 9:35 PM, Qie Niangao said:

(But now that I think of it, I don't understand the Estate sim rental business at all. Why would I ever rent a full sim from an Estate when I can buy one and pay the fees directly to the Lab? Maybe Estate managers provide some value to renters who aren't equipped to do it all themselves? Or could it just be that initial outlay, which the Estates presumably amortize over months or years of rent?)

The initial cost can be a deterrent but I think renters are perhaps also mindful of their freedom to leave a rented parcel on a whim.  A region owner has to take care of tenants, or, if they have none, still have to deal with the possibility of getting a poor deal if they sell up.

[Yhishara Cerise]

When I first started Second Life I wanted my own parcel where I paid Linden Labs directly.   I would still really like to do it but the costs of having to maintain a full region plus the costs related to a homestead is too much.  Considering that gives me two full regions that is also way too much land for what I want or could possibly even use.  I could find renters but that is a hassle.   Which leaves renting from someone else.   After nine years here,  I have found good rental companies (such as the one I am renting from now) but the bad ones are what make me want to get land directly from Linden Labs.   It's too bad one can't do that through a direct purchase of a homestead which could come directly off a payment plan like the subscription fees.  A homestead was perfect.   A homestead PLUS one full region was too much.

[Crim Mip]

At one time it was allowed. The problem was people abused the heck out of it and rather than using them for private low traffic purposes, set up clubs and such on them. This more or less overloaded the servers they were using and any other homesteads on that same CPU would be lagged out. Nowadays, it's mostly a commercial. The problem is that if they offered homesteads without needing an estate, it would effectively kill a lot of the value of full sims and the large landholders would be (understandably) upset. Think about how many would abandon their mainland areas to get one given that the tier on a Homestead is less than for half a mainland sim. Sure you get fewer prims to use, but most places now don't use anywhere close to their limit. This would be detrimental to LL's bottom line and I think to SL as a whole as people would have less reason to be social and explore.