A brief note on pricing changes, which ran long.

[Cain Maven]

1 minute ago, Jo Yardley said:

It might be a good idea for LL to send people an official warning when they haven't logged into SL for say a year that if they don't respond soon their account will be set to non-active meaning their groups vanish, they are automatically removed from groups, they lose land, prims returned, etc.

Are you taking notes, Linden Lab?

[Blueberryxx]

8 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Without knowing your RL situation -- look for another (possibly supplemental) job opportunity.

When people say "2.5% is too much or is going to ruin creators!!!" it sounds ridiculous, because it implies a lot of ridiculous things.

 

I am not against the fee increase in fact I am okay with it and welcome it, but I just want to show you a different perspective. For someone making 2000$ a month, an increase of 2.5% equals $50. That's a bill. For someone living off of 2,000$ a month $50 makes a significant difference. Please remember to be kind. Some people would rather live on less money but work a job they love doing, and for those people this is a big change.

[Cain Maven]

1 minute ago, Blueberryxx said:

Please remember to be kind.

Hear, hear.

[Jo Yardley]

I can't even afford to pay for a premium account annually.
 

[Beth Macbain]

51 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Most creators will eat the cost, as they have before. Raising prices is not something we can do without consequences.

As a consumer, I absolutely expect creators to raise their prices in accordance with the increase. That's how it works. There is a cost to doing business. Expenses increase. Prices increase.

As a consumer, I implore you to raise the prices on your merchandise. Please. 

[Marie Sims]

So, if I understood you well in total it will be 9.5% to sending money to paypal, cuz 4.5% on LindeX per transaction to exchange the L$ before sending money and you doubled it to 5%!!! 

thats sounds too bad for content creators…. looks like the final price of all items should raise too,  why not?? 

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Blueberryxx said:

I am not against the fee increase in fact I am okay with it and welcome it, but I just want to show you a different perspective. For someone making 2000$ a month, an increase of 2.5% equals $50. That's a bill. For someone living off of 2,000$ a month $50 makes a significant difference. Please remember to be kind. Some people would rather live on less money but work a job they love doing, and for those people this is a big change.

I think the biggest issue here is, and I know you can probably agree with this. With all these raise in costs, it means your overhead goes up. Add to that of fees for your land, and if you pay your managers a wage, that all adds up. For the consumer, that may mean we will see a slight price increase. Even though it may be a slight increase, you may see a loss in customers or even profit. I think that Linden Lab needs to step back for a month or two and really rethink their whole strategy. This hurts more than the retailer, it hurts the consumer too.

[sourapplepie]

18 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Without knowing your RL situation -- look for another (possibly supplemental) job opportunity.

When people say "2.5% is too much or is going to ruin creators!!!" it sounds ridiculous, because it implies a lot of ridiculous things.

• Do they only care about every cent and not the platform they're on?
• Are they living on the bleeding edge of their income, struggling every day?
• Why is SL their only income? Are they unable to find another source of income?

While a combination of those things (and others) might apply to some people, I can't imagine it being anywhere as near as big of a majority as people are making it out to be. This is why I'm asking for someone to give some kind of a concrete example. How much are you cashing out? How often? (And most importantly:) How much of a difference does the 2.5% actually make in the total you get into your bank account? I understand these are pretty personal questions, but it's very difficult to relate when all you hear is "the sky is falling, believe me."

I personally don't create in SL but a close friend of mine does and I showed them these questions so I hope these answers help you

Q) "Do they only care about every cent and not the platform they're on?"
A) I care about every cent, yes, and I also care about the platform as it allows me to work from home. It's a difficult balance because I work hard (8+ hours every week day, 4 - 5 hours on weekends) creating items, doing customer service, listing on the marketplace, mainting my store, setting up at events, so it feels like a big kick in the gut having Linden Labs take away even a little bit of the money that I work so hard to earn.

Q) "Are they living on the bleeding edge of their income, struggling every day?"
A) Yes. With my SL income I make just about minimum wage on a good month and in an EU country living on minium wage is very difficult

Q) "Why is SL their only income? Are they unable to find another source of income?"
A) I have multiple mental health illnesses which make it very difficult for me to hold down a job, believe me I have tried. Discovering I can just about live off doing something that not only I love but that I am good at while also looking after my mental health, it makes SL basically my dream job.
 

They continue below:

"While it's unlikely the majority of creators and people on SL in general it still affects some people and these people are valid and need to be listened to. I will give an example of my cashing out. I made 900 Euro last month, meaning my process credit fee was 22.5 Euro. Going up to 5% credit fee would have meant that last month my process credit fee would have been 45 Euro which is a food shopping bill for me. Granted last month was a rough month for me with cash outs (usually I make around 1,750 Euro which would mean my credit fee would be 85 Euro). It all adds up. Losing another 40 - 50 Euro a month may not seem like a huge amount but when you're just about getting by as it is then that money really matters"

Edited May 30, 2019 by sourapplepie

[Kat Linden]

So, I am just a support Linden, and I don't have all the answers - we are adjusting to these changes too. But I know other Lindens will be reading these forums and chiming in as well. And, as Grumpity said, we really are open to feedback.

@Pamela Galli your account type is Basic then, to the best of my knowledge, that will most likely determine your group membership cap as well as your offline IM cap - but you can still receive all of your offline IMs by checking the box to receive IMs via email. If you do not know how to do this, we support folks are happy to walk you through it. And if I receive any information contrary to this, I will be very happy to update you.

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

I think the biggest issue here is, and I know you can probably agree with this. With all these raise in costs, it means your overhead goes up. Add to that of fees for your land, and if you pay your managers a wage, that all adds up. For the consumer, that may mean we will see a slight price increase. Even though it may be a slight increase, you may see a loss in customers or even profit. I think that Linden Lab needs to step back for a month or two and really rethink their whole strategy. This hurts more than the retailer, it hurts the consumer too.

And subtract the amount that your land use fees have been reduced. I'm not saying there aren't people who will be worse off with the changes, but there will be people who will be better off.

[FlightlessAngel]

3 hours ago, Milena Coy said:

Is this really the right decision? Wouldn’t it bring more income for LL to quit the Basic Membership? Aren’t we all interested in a faster (and more reliable) development? Do we really need thousands of never used accounts or ever-noob avatars with empty profiles and no payment info? I know: Some people don’t have a lot of money, and also as a free member they are a nice and important part of the community. But when they are in SL for a long time, is SL really not worth a small fee? For example a fee of 1 US$ for each month you log in. If you don’t login in a month, no fee is charged. So no monthly plan, but a fee depending on your logins. Users could fill a „purse“ of their account in steps of 5 or 10 US$ and the first login in a month would reduce the purse amount. I think everyone could pay this and it would be a way to make land more affordable. Premium members with annual plan have to pay 37,5% more now, do we want this? These are the people who already pay for their SL. And all the designers who create the content we like have to pay a doubled fee now when they want to withdraw their earnings to real life. Do we want this? These are the people who mainly make SL look like it is now. So should the people who already pay pay more or should everyone pay a little? People who never pay need and expect that other people pay, so they can use SL for free - often for years. But is this right? Should this be supported for ever? Shouldn’t LL find a way that the paying people don’t need to pay more and more?

(Yes, I know. SL needs new users and new users never wanna pay without testing. So give them a free month.)

Payment isn’t the problem of SL for getting (keeping!) new users. The reason they don’t return is that SL is too complicate for new users. 1000 settings of the viewer. LL viewer or Firestorm? Default avatar? Or wearing (!) a mesh body and a separated mesh head? Oh, then the default avatar is hidden. So also your skin is hidden. Hopefully you find the same skin applier for body and head or you manage how to edit the tone. Understanding alpha layers. Even different when using the mesh body HUD. Oh forgot: Hands and feet are separate mesh parts too. So buy correct shoes or they won’t match. Yes, there are different mesh generations - rigged, unrigged. No, forget sculpties, they are outdated like so many things here. Different textures for mesh. No, you can’t create mesh with the viewer tools. Yes, you can create system clothes with the viewer. But don’t do it, yes smartass, it’s outdated. Wearing system clothes, mesh clothes or use an applier HUD for textures? Wear or add or need applier? Different mesh systems for hair (don’t use system hair, silly. Just wear a base. Well, that’s a bald of ... ok, sorry, of the system hair.) and especially for apparel. Found a cheap mesh body? Cool! Oh, didn’t find clothes for it? Haha, yes. Omega (Kit? Applier? Relay HUD? Huh?) may work. But you need to buy the right one. “Soon” (tm) we will have Bakes on Mesh, again changing a lot. Open a box? Well, just click it. Oh, or you need to drag (“rezz”, wut?) it to the ground. Not allowed? You need permission for this. Why? Where? How? Why I am shaking my arms like a bird while I am standing? Haha, silly noob AO. Oh, what’s an AO? - And all this is only the start. Still not learned about inventory, outfits and other UI parts, object permissions, maturity ratings, land allowance (buy and/or monthly fee, mainland and private is different), complicated group functions (deed?), gestures, scripts, building, music/media, offline restrictions and much more. How can I find people with the same interests? The search mainly leads me to “sex”-places or “clubs”, no matter what I am looking for, because keyword-spamming rules. And btw: The people who offer inworld help are user support regions or user groups (Firestorm for example), not driven my LL. So maybe somewhere there the problem is “hidden”, why most of new users never return or give up soon? Because SL grew in steps as it did and never was simplified the whole concept of SL is grumpy now. Rebuild it, simplify it, courageously kick old content and structures.

I agree that all of these concepts are hard for new users to grasp BUT I have to say I find that older members find them much harder to grasp because it is not just getting a handle on the game but it is basically relearning a game you feel you already put the work of learning into. New users are more willing to change because they are going in the with expectation of learning a game.

I can tell you that when I had found SL a few years back if I would have seen that I would have had to pay for it I would have kept scrolling and I think a lot of people would. You need a free membership but you also need real incentive for them to switch over. Under no circumstances should you further limit what basic users who have already been here all these years are getting (They are your faithful members and a large amount of them are pouring their RL money into Linden Lab's real wallet). Consider only knocking down what new registering members are getting. People do not take kindly to having things taken away. Be mindful that not all basic accounts are forever-noobs that do not contribute. I have met many residents that did have premium for a period of time and then decided it wasn't worth it to them and they dropped it for a while. Just because someone is not forking up a whole $10 a month (Which really isn't all that much at all.) does not mean they are not putting out much much more than that supporting their own shopping habits. I have watched non-premium members drop $100-$200 or more a month just for shopping and then more for their land.

Of course you can say well we have to raise the prices on things because of new plans being made and new things happening which is 100% understandable but I see people using the new Linden Homes as an example here but be mindful that not all premium users have access to them right now and thus are paying for other users new perks and not their own.

There was an idea somewhere in another post suggesting different levels of premium. Some people really only get premium to make it easier on themselves getting into shopping events. Basic should remain because that is how you get new people to play and a percentage of those new people will become premium.. I am not sure a month free is going to cut it. I think two levels of premium would even suffice, you could have one geared towards your everyday users and then one geared more towards business owners and people who make their RL money from SL more regularly.

[Chic Aeon]

2 hours ago, Cain Maven said:

Fair point -- although I'm not sure how many creators that applies to? I would imagine that those who cash out less than $400 / month may not have a full region, as tier would account for over 60% of revenue. I do agree that it doesn't hit all creators equally, though.

In any event, I'm surprised that LL didn't increase the Marketplace fees first. The current 5% certainly is below "industry standards" and raising it might provide some revenue as well as having the positive side effects of encouraging creators to maintain in-world stores instead of only being on Marketplace.

 

Agreed that there are likely not that many creators that earn less than $400 a month that OWN full regions. Quite a few it seems rent. Quite a few have been downsizing this last year and are on smaller plots.

 

Re the increase in Marketing fees :D.  We were told repeatedly last year by Ebbe that a Marketplace fee increase was in the works. Most of the creators I know were not happy. While never mentioned outright there were some comments (Ebbe) at Town Halls mentioning the 30% number. He NEVER said that was the plan; he just mentioned "industry standard" and "30%" a few times.  Many of us were expecting that to happen last year. 

 

BUT, there were some major upheavals in Sansar which effectively cut creator profits BIG TIME. There were many complaints and a ton of good creators left. Personally (no official comments on this AT ALL) I think that fiasco had something to do with the Marketplace fees remaining the same (for now anyway).  Again, personally -- IF those fees raise proportionally "I" will simply raise prices on the Marketplace and sell products inworld at the old price. (Dakota confirmed awhile back that this is legal now and that old rule of "no cheaper inworld" was leftover from XStreet times (not sure if I remember the old company name correctly).  This means that The Lab would likely get LESS money than before as I sell a good portion of my goods on the Marketplace.  

 

Since I have heard a lot of complaining from creator friends over the cashing out fee increase, I suspect  there would be the same backlash here as in Sansar over an increased Marketplace fee.  I honestly don't know any creators that are making MORE profits these days than in the recent past. There are certainly  some I suspect, I just don't know any of them. So for many, profits are already down and increasing Marketplace fees might be the last straw.  On the positive side, 'I" would be happy to see more inworld shopping like the old days -- much like the new community aspect of the new Linden Homes. Some things have been lost along the way. 

 

And a thank you to Grumpity for the upbeat OP; it always helps to smile. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

And subtract the amount that your land use fees have been reduced. I'm not saying there aren't people who will be worse off with the changes, but there will be people who will be better off.

The point is, this all adds up for a creator. With these fees, land fees, if they pay wages to their managers.  Factor in the upload costs, and if they are in an event. That is gonna add up even more. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by halebore Aeon

[Beth Macbain]

41 minutes ago, Kira Balestra said:

FB is boiling all over now with this, a lot of post about this... and absolutely no one agrees or happy with the LL changes

I do! And I'm also making note of all the whiny creators who don't want to put in the work to change their prices to reflect the increase the same way any other retailer would in the real world. 

It costs money to run a business. It takes work to run a business. From the consumer's side, I'm seeing a lot of really selfish and ugly attitudes from the creators of SL. That is having more of a negative impact on me than LL's perfectly reasonable price increases. 

[Fox Wijaya]

3 minutes ago, sourapplepie said:

 I will give an example of my cashing out. I made 900 Euro last month,

nearly all EU countries have social laws that provide a income from the goverment, the 900 has to be added to that?

[NODNOL Jameson]

5 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

Hi! This started out as a brief clarification on some things causing confusion, and has turned into a long bullet-point list.  Rather than replying to the numerous threads on the forums, I'm going to try to put it all together here.  As long as the conversation remains civil, I'll do my best to respond to questions. Please point the pitchforks away from my eyes though...  

• Land prices:  Full estates get ~$20/mo reduction in price. For the first time we are also reducing GF/BD region pricing.  This is not a frivolous gift to the 1%. This has real and proven effects on the rents many more pay. 
   
• Premium prices are going up on June 24.  Starting June 3 and until June 24,  Premium accounts have 3 weeks to pre-pay an additional cycle of premium at the old rates.  Best deal is, of course, prepaying for annual regardless of your current level. We hope you can take advantage of it. If you’re paying quarterly today, you can continue as quarterly. We will no longer offer it to new premium signups.  With the new prices, VAT will be charged on monthly and quarterly but not annual (of course only in the countries where VAT applies).
   
• We looked. We hadn’t raised premium prices in the history of premium prices in SL. Crazy! A lot of value has been added to premium over the last few years (new Linden Homes, double tier, reduced mainland prices, premium access, more offline IMs, more transaction history, more groups, more animesh, experiences, and yet more to come) and we are raising prices to reflect that.   

• We’re not lowering limits out of spite, groups really are quite a strain on our back end for a variety of painful historical reasons, including overloading group functionality instead of having other tools.  This subject alone is worth a novel liberally sprinkled with tears. So anyway, we don’t hate basic users, and in fact we work hard to retain our free-to-play offering as one of the most generous across many industries. But yes, no big surprise, we do want to nudge active residents to become subscribers, because we think it’s a great value, and - as many have noted - we’re also running a business. But no, we're not shutting our doors to non-premium residents. Rumors of our insanity and villainy have been slightly exaggerated.  

• Fees to process credit are going up, effective June 24.  L$ buy fees are not. Yes, this is another step in rebalancing the economy.  It’s also the right step, because the regulatory climate has evolved dramatically since SL first started out, and in order to continue to offer a platform for creators to actually make money, we have a lot of ongoing work to keep up with those regulations. Compliance is generally no fun (shh don’t tell our compliance people I said so - they’re wonderful and actually think it’s fun!) but it keeps all of us in business and the bad guys out. If we weren't doing this work, we would literally have to stop offering the ability to process credit. 

• We’re making lasting investments into SL in infrastructure, features, and content.  While we set aside some special morsels only for premium members, the work we are doing benefits everyone - region crossings, attachment reliability, marketplace improvements, inventory stability, land auctions - are just a few examples.  No one project will please all of our residents, but we make an effort to address the needs of all communities in turn. We can’t get everything done immediately, but we’re focused and determined to keep SL successful and evolving. It’s a unique and thriving world we work hard to support. 

Look, this is obviously a bitter pill.  We can't keep slashing land prices at the rate we did last year.  We can’t raise other prices and yet keep everyone happy.  But we sincerely believe this is the best path forward - and hope you will come around too. 

P.S. we haven't given up on Last Names either.  

You mean LL is enforcing a 333% raise since January 2018 based on what? Venezuela's inflation variation? I am talking about fees going from 1,5% to 2,5% (66%+) and then going up to 5% (333%+ over the initial fee).

1.5 x 3,33 = 4,99

That's not right with us creators. That's all.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

35 minutes ago, Jo Yardley said:

Groups are the best way to reach the people who visit your sim, come to your shop, are part of your community, if they start leaving our groups because they only have so many they can join, it's not good.

This seems to me an important point, for two reasons. Most people seem to have focused on the impact that the loss of groups for non-Premium residents will have on the residents themselves, but it seems to me that, in the long run, it puts a lot of new pressure on sim owners and creators, who are now going to have to compete harder for new group members. One way to do that might be to lower the cost to join a group (where there is a cost), or increase the benefits, but that's going to cost makers who are simultaneously getting pinched, at least a little, by new transfer fees. So, how does one respond to this?

One of the results from a non-premium resident perspective is that I suspect the priority will now be upon keeping groups centered upon merchants, and losing social groups. So, for instance, I don't think there are currently any benefits, other than updates, events, news, and the social element, to being a member of the 1920s Berlin group? How many current residents will be lost from such groups? And that, in some ways, works against the newish emphasis upon "community" signaled by the way in the new Linden homes have been set up.

Except, of course, those in Bellissaria will not be seeing a reduction in group limits. So, the result will be somewhat less connection among non-Premium residents. Given the disparity in numbers -- non-Premium far outnumber Premium members -- I wonder what impact that will have on the economy.

This doesn't honestly affect me that much. It may mean I reconsider my leaning towards becoming Premium -- that's a pretty hefty price hike (nearly 40%), after all. I can live with fewer groups. In the final analysis, my response to this will be determined by 1) whether it makes SL more financially viable (which, I assume, we all want to see), and 2) how it is likely to impact on in-world culture. I guess we'll see.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra
Cuz extra words

[Beth Macbain]

45 minutes ago, Cain Maven said:

That's exactly right. Even if the direct impact is on the creators, in many if not most cases the extra cost will be passed on to the consumer. That's how it is in any life.

That's how it works. I'm a consumer. Go ahead and raise those prices. You have my permission. Please.

[sourapplepie]

Just now, Beth Macbain said:

I do! And I'm also making note of all the whiny creators who don't want to put in the work to change their prices to reflect the increase the same way any other retailer would in the real world. 

It costs money to run a business. It takes work to run a business. From the consumer's side, I'm seeing a lot of really selfish and ugly attitudes from the creators of SL. That is having more of a negative impact on me than LL's perfectly reasonable price increases. 

Please don't call creators who have issues with this "whiny". For a lot of people this is their job and they have every right to be upset, confused and concerned about this. Customers complain when prices are "too high" so creators want to keep prices as low as possible or risk alienating customers. If you want to keep track of all the creators who have an issue with this then I hope you have a big piece of paper because I can't image many creators are like "oh good! 5% of my income is being taken away now!"

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Beth Macbain said:

I do! And I'm also making note of all the whiny creators who don't want to put in the work to change their prices to reflect the increase the same way any other retailer would in the real world. 

It costs money to run a business. It takes work to run a business. From the consumer's side, I'm seeing a lot of really selfish and ugly attitudes from the creators of SL. That is having more of a negative impact on me than LL's perfectly reasonable price increases. 

Yes, we get that it costs money to run a business. But a lot of people aren't happy with these changes, and they are very fair about being unhappy.

[sourapplepie]

2 minutes ago, Fox Wijaya said:

nearly all EU countries have social laws that provide a income from the goverment, the 900 has to be added to that?

No the 900 is not added to that. In the country my friend lives in if a person is earning more than a certain amount of money per month they do not qualify for government help.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

4 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

It costs money to run a business. It takes work to run a business. From the consumer's side, I'm seeing a lot of really selfish and ugly attitudes from the creators of SL. That is having more of a negative impact on me than LL's perfectly reasonable price increases.  

Eating the fee is selfish and ugly?

Edited May 30, 2019 by Kyrah Abattoir

[Pamela Galli]

1 minute ago, Kat Linden said:

So, I am just a support Linden, and I don't have all the answers - we are adjusting to these changes too. But I know other Lindens will be reading these forums and chiming in as well. And, as Grumpity said, we really are open to feedback.

@Pamela Galli your account type is Basic then, to the best of my knowledge, that will most likely determine your group membership cap as well as your offline IM cap - but you can still receive all of your offline IMs by checking the box to receive IMs via email. If you do not know how to do this, we support folks are happy to walk you through it. And if I receive any information contrary to this, I will be very happy to update you.

Yes, I have been running a large store for eleven years and know how to manage offline IMs. But having them cap means I have to use search to send something to some of the accounts, instead of having them all there in the IM list. Time wasting. I do get Concierge level support, which I value, but until now have not needed any of the other Premium perks. 

[Sweet Valentine]

maybe stop the automatic connecting people to chat when a message in a group is sent ..only the chat portion...some groups that has to open up 5000 or more messages to folks logged in ,in a single group ...make chat in groups something u have to open not auto connect it...huge save on servers right there...please think outside the box Lindens...i don't like that your taking things away from the non premiums.. make it that only new members get lower groups not the ones that already have them, grandfather it cus ur pissin alotta folks off right now with this and many will leave..you want to retain what u have not lose them...other grids have unlimited groups...im fine on the price increases cus well i haven't seen a premium increase in the 15 years i been a user and i rather see land tiers fall than increase....my pet peeve has always been the folks that make money in SL and DO not have premium.. that should be a requirement.. if you are a business and profit at all in SL  you should have to be premium...SUPPORT this opportunity LL gives us

[sourapplepie]

Just now, Sweet Valentine said:

my pet peeve has always been the folks that make money in SL and DO not have premium.. that should be a requirement.. if you are a business and profit at all in SL  you should have to be premium...SUPPORT this opportunity LL gives us

Although I in theory disagree with you... if this was the case there should then be a specific "creators premium" at a lower price as many creators use SL primarily for business and have no want or need for the extra things that come with such a high price.