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A brief note on pricing changes, which ran long.

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Just now, sourapplepie said:

No the 900 is not added to that. In the country my friend lives in if a person is earning more than a certain amount of money per month they do not qualify for government help.

you were stating it as it was you, why you bring your friend in? or are you living with your friend and the total income is above that amount, in that case it would be fair you mention the whole income and not just yours.

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2 hours ago, Fox Wijaya said:

whát is different about the conditions for premium members?

you didn't answer that in your previous post either, but to clarify there is NO difference.

The way I understood her, is she was talking about the continent with the new Linden homes not being completed, and most of us who are premium not being able to obtain one as of yet.

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Just now, Fox Wijaya said:

you were stating it as it was you, why you bring your friend in? or are you living with your friend and the total income is above that amount, in that case it would be fair you mention the whole income and not just yours.

The answers to the questions were from my friend. I clearly stated that I am not a creator and all answers were from my friend. I make no money from SL.

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Just now, JenJen Sommerfleck said:

The way I understood her, is she was talking about the continent with the new Linden homes not being completed, and most of us who are premium not being able to obtain one as of yet.

yes i know, but that doesn't make high premium and low premiums ... all are the same

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3 minutes ago, NODNOL Jameson said:

You mean LL is enforcing a 333% raise since January 2018 based on what? Venezuela's inflation variation? I am talking about fees going from 1,5% to 2,5% (66%+) and then going up to 5% (333%+ over the initial fee).

1.5 x 3,33 = 4,99

That's not right with us creators. That's all.

Which is an actual reduction of income of 3.5%.

Cost of private region, January, 2018 - $295.00

Cost of private region now - $229.00

Actual reduction of land expenses: 28.8 %

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1 minute ago, sourapplepie said:

Although I in theory disagree with you... if this was the case there should then be a specific "creators premium" at a lower price as many creators use SL primarily for business and have no want or need for the extra things that come with such a high price.

in any real life business you have overhead costs.,rent, business licenses, insurance, advertising fees, ect ect..its not rocket science LL is a business but everyone wants it for free...that's how our world is these days give it all to me and i dont wanna pay attitudes

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Just now, Sweet Valentine said:

in any real life business you have overhead costs.,rent, business licenses, insurance, advertising fees, ect ect..its not rocket science LL is a business but everyone wants it for free...that's how our world is these days give it all to me and i dont wanna pay attitudes

I believe there already multiple fees like this in SL. Rent costs money, advertising on Seraphim or other news blogs costs money, paying L$10 per image upload and $L20+ per item upload depending on complexity. Not to mention how much programs cost, I've seen people spending $500+ per year on Photoshop, Substance Painter, Maya, etc, just to be able to create. Making stuff for SL isn't free by any means.

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Posted (edited)

Personally, I wish more creators would use subscribers - and likewise customers *join* those - they're more reliable at sending news than groups anyway (groups rarely actually send group notices to all folk).

Likewise, I wish creators would have one official group (and subscriber), for THEM and their products, and an additional group for spam from other merchants who do products *for* the main product / brand.

Personally I end up stopping group notices due to the multitude of spamverts, so miss any actual update news. If I want to join the spamvert group - I can.

Edited by FreyasFashions
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6 minutes ago, Sweet Valentine said:

if you are a business and profit at all in SL  you should have to be premium...SUPPORT this opportunity LL gives us

Until now, there was nothing of value for me in being Premium. I do pay tier on four full sims, and pay hundreds a month in other fees, so I don’t feel any obligation to further donate a premium fee to LL. But the new capping policy makes the Premium fee worth it. 

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8 minutes ago, sourapplepie said:

Please don't call creators who have issues with this "whiny". For a lot of people this is their job and they have every right to be upset, confused and concerned about this. Customers complain when prices are "too high" so creators want to keep prices as low as possible or risk alienating customers. If you want to keep track of all the creators who have an issue with this then I hope you have a big piece of paper because I can't image many creators are like "oh good! 5% of my income is being taken away now!"

I don't expect anyone to be "oh good" but I expect them to pull up their big girl panties and deal with this in a mature way that doesn't involve cussing out LL and understanding and accepting that costs increase. LL is a real world company with real world costs and real world employees who are also trying to make ends meet. Those real world costs increase just like costs do for every single person or business everywhere. SL isn't some magical land where things that affect the real world don't bleed into it. 

I understand that everyone is having knee-jerk reactions but I would implore them to take some time to calm down before going on the attack like I've seen so many doing. 

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4 minutes ago, Sweet Valentine said:

in any real life business you have overhead costs.,rent, business licenses, insurance, advertising fees, ect ect..its not rocket science LL is a business but everyone wants it for free...that's how our world is these days give it all to me and i dont wanna pay attitudes

Free? I pay my premium per year, private region fee each month and LindeX fee, Cachout fee, Marketplace fee, events fee…  And what do I have for it? Just a platform ? 

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59 minutes ago, Kat Linden said:

Hi! So, I am very afraid of pitchforks - please be gentle.

I just wanted to briefly address groups maths. It's true that the groups of Basic accounts are being lowered by 7, and the groups of Premium accounts are being raised by 10 - and if you look at that math alone, it might not seem to add up. However, most residents have at least one alt. Technically, you can have up to 5 alts, and many residents are not entirely limited by that technicality. But let's you had one Premium Membership and 4 Basic alts - the number of groups you could have on your main account would go up by 10, but the total number of groups you could be a member of would go down by 18. This is important because all members of groups contribute to lag, even inactive group members. This is especially true for group chat. There are residents who have a lot of alts that they have not used in years that are still part of groups, and they are slowing those groups down. Lowering the number of groups for Basic accounts will not be a quick fix for this issue, but reducing the number of groups Basic members can join could help keep it from building further as we go forward.

decreasing the group does not take the inactive accounts out of the groups. it affects those who are active. For creators it's the main advertising tool. Now it will be even harder for especially new creators to bring people into their groups to get the word out and to bring more content to SL. As a premium myself I would rather not have more than 60 groups and therefore the basic accounts maybe could keep theirs. As @Blueberryxx already mentioned, maybe there is a way to fix those group issue as many jiras have been filed. The impact on cutting groups is tremendous for SL population 

I also would suggest to have different levels of premium memberships. having a basic cheap one up to a more expensive one with more perks that will allow some who can't afford full premium to at least have a more basic version of it and LL would still get a small fee for it. 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

When people say "2.5% is too much or is going to ruin creators!!!" it sounds ridiculous, because it implies a lot of ridiculous things.

Wulfie, the squeeze is on....more and more is being taken from content creators. Presently, with 5% MP fees, 4.5% conversion fees, and now 5% cashout fees it comes to 14.5%. How much higher will it go?

What you're not understanding is that once a full-time creators income in SL drops below a certain point they can no longer pay their RL bills and have to find another job. This other job then takes all their time and energy and they don't have the time/energy to create in SL.
So yes, each additional increase LL decides to mine from creators will force some to close their SL business.

*Apparently the conversion fees are up to 4.5%, so amended the amount.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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I'm probably going to be boo'd out of this thread with my comments, but here goes anyway. Groups have been a problem for a long time. Using them for advertising has become the norm but should they be? I don't think so. It would be better to use a subo system, as has been suggested in this thread. I personally think that not only the basic accounts but premium accounts as well should have a lower limit placed on groups. I also think that we need different types of groups where some features, like group chat, are not permitted.

I am a very small time merchant. Will the additional fee hurt? Yes, but does that mean I don't agree with the need for Linden Lab to impose these additional fees? No, I do. We need a healthy Linden Lab or Second Life goes away and with it the very income I make from this platform. So it's time for me to tighten my belt and deal with it! I'm a retired person and have an extremely small pension. So small it barely pays my RL rent. So, believe me I understand the stress this brings, but it's life and you learn to deal with it. Complaining or stomping your feet about it won't change anything.

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17 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

Yes, we get that it costs money to run a business. But a lot of people aren't happy with these changes, and they are very fair about being unhappy.

I was looking at the quotes in those FB screenshots... People can be unhappy and maintain a sense of dignity. I'm not seeing a lot of dignity there. 

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47 minutes ago, Blueberryxx said:

@Kat Linden could you guys meet us in the middle and at least take a couple months to discuss a different way to handle the group problem without penalizing the basic members? 

Group issue penalizes creators too. For reasons I mentioned earlier and Apple Fall explained even better. Group chat/notices is easily 75% of how we sell and it's 90% of being able to run a successful main store business without having to participate in events. We really need you all to reconsider this.

Yes

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15 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Since I have heard a lot of complaining from creator friends over the cashing out fee increase, I suspect  there would be the same backlash here as in Sansar over an increased Marketplace fee.  I honestly don't know any creators that are making MORE profits these days than in the recent past. There are certainly  some I suspect, I just don't know any of them. So for many, profits are already down and increasing Marketplace fees might be the last straw.  On the positive side, 'I" would be happy to see more inworld shopping like the old days -- much like the new community aspect of the new Linden Homes. Some things have been lost along the way. 

The way i see it: LL have opted for the cashing out fee increase instead of the much discussed Marketplace fee increase. A wiser choice, too (from LL's perspective), because this way everybody's paying, not only Marketplace shop owners. Of course, i might be waaaaaaaaaay too optimistic here, and the Marketplace fee increase is still coming up as well, on top of this new 5% cashout fee. That won't surprise me at all. Nothing LL does surprises me anymore. They like to shoot themselves in the foot.

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4 minutes ago, FreyasFashions said:

Personally, I wish more creators would use subscribers

Agree. I don’t have a store group. I have a subscriber at my main store landing point. People add or delete themselves. There is no chat, I just send out notices of gifts, updates, tips, new releases periodically. 

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1 hour ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Most creators will eat the cost, as they have before. Raising prices is not something we can do without consequences.

This is what low self esteem in SL merchant sector looks like.

Kyrah. You make beautiful, hand crafted, unique, and very specialist items and you've been doing it forever. If your sales drift, it will be market trends, not that you had to put prices up by a few L$. An extra 2.5% on prices wont make the slightest difference .. neither would an extra 10%.

If I'm shopping in your store, I'm not there because of the price. 

This goes for most of the things I buy in SL that I actually want.

The only price increases that bug me are gatchas at the arcade, because I am literally buying crap and I don't need and almost certainly don't want.

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Just now, Blush Bravin said:

I'm probably going to be boo'd out of this thread with my comments, but here goes anyway. Groups have been a problem for a long time. Using them for advertising has become the norm but should they be? I don't think so. It would be better to use a subo system, as has been suggested in this thread. I personally think that not only the basic accounts but premium accounts as well should have a lower limit placed on groups. I also think that we need different types of groups where some features, like group chat, are not permitted.

I am a very small time merchant. Will the additional fee hurt? Yes, but does that mean I don't agree with the need for Linden Lab to impose these additional fees? No, I do. We need a healthy Linden Lab or Second Life goes away and with it the very income I make from this platform. So it's time for me to tighten my belt and deal with it! I'm a retired person and have an extremely small pension. So small it barely pays my RL rent. So, believe me I understand the stress this brings, but it's life and you learn to deal with it. Complaining or stomping your feet about it won't change anything.

Booooo... Nah, I think your points are valid and definitely agree with groups. Subscribers or other systems are definitely the way forward for stores at least and allow loads more flexibility, and don't get me started on group chats!

Complaining or "stomping feet" wont change anything but LL specifically here say they want to hear feedback and hear things from others perspectives so people pitching in and sharing their thoughts is a great way of doing that and it's good that you shared yours.

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6 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I don't expect anyone to be "oh good" but I expect them to pull up their big girl panties and deal with this in a mature way that doesn't involve cussing out LL and understanding and accepting that costs increase. LL is a real world company with real world costs and real world employees who are also trying to make ends meet. Those real world costs increase just like costs do for every single person or business everywhere. SL isn't some magical land where things that affect the real world don't bleed into it. 

I understand that everyone is having knee-jerk reactions but I would implore them to take some time to calm down before going on the attack like I've seen so many doing. 

Okay, that's the thing. You are expecting them to shut up, and just take it. You really don't understand the implications this has. Some people use their SL jobs to Maintain their RL. So cashing out, is pretty pertinent to them. And when you start stacking costs, like if they are not from the US you gotta factor in exchange rates, and if they are in the EU VAT will be added on. There is so much that goes on in the background for creators, that yeah they have a right to be perturbed. 

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1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

I'm probably going to be boo'd out of this thread with my comments, but here goes anyway. Groups have been a problem for a long time. Using them for advertising has become the norm but should they be? I don't think so. It would be better to use a subo system, as has been suggested in this thread. I personally think that not only the basic accounts but premium accounts as well should have a lower limit placed on groups. I also think that we need different types of groups where some features, like group chat, are not permitted.

 

I have turned off chat in my groups, not least because they are free to join groups, and while ever folk fall for the altervista phishing links, they're just too much hassle.

Groups were (way back) primarily used for rezzing abilities when you rented somewhere, not so much advertising. That has been a drastic shift in recent years.

 

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Maybe people who haven't subscribed would be more enthusiastic if the result of a missed payment were not a frozen account. I simply cannot take the risk that something will go wrong with my payment and I will be locked out of the commitments I have inworld, that's an OP negative for me. Busted back to freebie account? Sure, I can work with that. Frozen out? Nope.

Why can't I earn and pay for my subscription with Linden dollars?

And if you were at the other end of the world from the Cool Kids, maybe you'd appreciate the importance of IMs more. Some of us need them to work. Same with groups, so the groups that will lose me are the ones I joined to support, so I can keep the ones I work for. No wonder they're annoyed.

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3 minutes ago, xxSaltandPepperxx said:

For creators it's the main advertising tool. Now it will be even harder for especially new creators to bring people into their groups to get the word out and to bring more content to SL. 

 

What??? All ads now are on FB,Flickr etc... who really need the groups to promote ? sounds funny

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, sourapplepie said:

They continue below:

"While it's unlikely the majority of creators and people on SL in general it still affects some people and these people are valid and need to be listened to. I will give an example of my cashing out. I made 900 Euro last month, meaning my process credit fee was 22.5 Euro. Going up to 5% credit fee would have meant that last month my process credit fee would have been 45 Euro which is a food shopping bill for me. Granted last month was a rough month for me with cash outs (usually I make around 1,750 Euro which would mean my credit fee would be 85 Euro). It all adds up. Losing another 40 - 50 Euro a month may not seem like a huge amount but when you're just about getting by as it is then that money really matters"

Thank you. Since you're also in the EU, what about your welfare systems? Don't they supplement your income if you make that little?

41 minutes ago, Blueberryxx said:

For someone living off of 2,000$ a month $50 makes a significant difference. Please remember to be kind. Some people would rather live on less money but work a job they love doing, and for those people this is a big change.

I live off of less than about $600 for essentials (rent/food) per month. One-person apartment. Anything beyond that I save for a bad day.

11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Wulfie, the squeeze is on....more and more is being taken from content creators. Presently, with 5% MP fees, 3.5% conversion fees, and now 5% cashout fees it comes to 13.5%. How much higher will it go?

What you're not understanding is that once a full-time creators income in SL drops below a certain point they can no longer pay their RL bills and have to find another job. This other job then takes all their time and energy and they don't have the time/energy to create in SL.
So yes, each additional increase LL decides to mine from creators will force some to close their SL business.

You're right, I don't understand. If you're using SL as your tool to survive, I would imagine you'd start scouting for possible jobs before you're at the very limit of what you can do. Even $60 is a lot, I know because I very often put off buying games because $60 is more than I'll probably get out of it and I don't want to take that risk. So I save that $60 so I can live a little more comfortably and these decisions stack up. Soon I'll find I've saved a lot of money over the month, each month, and I have a healthy buffer between my balance and 0.

If I was steadily losing money or hovering near 0, where a $60 monthly loss is putting me into a panic, I would be looking for as many ways as I can to make more than I do now. Sure, the thought of "how high will they go" is scary, but if you take a realistic look at your financial situation right now and determine that you can't take, say, a move from 5 to 7%, I would make preparations now and not wait for it to happen. And if it never happens? At least you have a safety net.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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