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Why do people support sellers that do no mod?

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Just now, Fionalein said:

IBTL? 

Considering the tone some have taken when responding? 

One can only hope. 

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I just popped back in and read the last few pages, the retail customer is always right stuff, nope, usually the only customers that ever try and use that line are the very ones that know they are very much in the wrong and have no basis for whatever fit they are throwing. This is RL I am speaking of, because I have so many years Working, Managing and Owning businesses to base this on. There is a very big knack to turning that around and you can if you are wanting to actually support the customer and the products you stand behind, but that is just RL stuff. Nothing more satisfying than having any negative situation like that turned around, but I also find that face to face situations differ greatly from internet interactions.

I mentioned earlier on that I am always on both sides of this conversation, because I understand why some pieces have some no mod needs, and others it seems trite. @Fionalein mentioned earlier also that many in SL do not have the experience of running a business and for those of us that work alongside them or for them, or just are watchers of the goings on this is very true, truer than many would think. So they emulate the people that came before them, and one of the biggest ways that happens is permissions.

I could bet that if you asked a 100 random creators why they set their perms the way they do, a rather large percentage would not know, it would be because the stores they shopped at when they started did the same. You see this a lot in SL and have done for over a decade now, that creators will do things that other stores do and they think it is standard, and are not even realising in some cases they are taking original ideas. They do what others do and until someone tells them it is wrong or why they should do otherwise they don't know. Hair for example I have seen no mod more and more often now, based on the theory that it is rigged and mesh and they cannot resize it or move strands anyway etc... forgetting someone may just want to tint it slime green for a fun halloween witch look, or they may want to set it to glow for a space night, or turn the alphas to none if clipping with hairbases and so on. They often do not know this is something people want to do, and do do, so they just lock the gates.

Sometimes though you find that there is a very big misunderstanding in information provided by something else they use that leads to it. SL is English speaking when it comes to just about everything communicated, that makes it very hard on those that it is a second language.

Example 1 : the scripts they use say to make sure no mod before selling so that the scripts are safe - turns into everything needs to be no mod

Example 2 : NOTICES > Make sure you have full permission before sending (this was the info set in the notices dialogue for groups in the SL viewer in the past I do not know if it is different now)  the message was meant to mean that you are the owner of the items you are sending, that you are not sending someone elses products without their permission..... this actually lead to people sending their items through groups FULL PERMS!  - one hair fair a non english speaking creator did this and sent her whole release through the demo group, she was heart broken, lucky for us that those that realised actually came and bought everything from her and ditched the items, and we flooded the group so that her send was removed.

There are so many situations I have encountered over the years with creators and customers that honestly baffle me at first but then when re-looking through their eyes realise, what they did, what they assumed was almost reasonable based on what was already evident. 

My own by default notecards are created NO MOD, why because I lived through the using peoples notecards to create scandal or worse use the notecards in stolen items to allude to the person being the thief etc. I also know from experience that some people do not know how to actually create a new notecard, and will use other peoples to write over and send to someone else, then leave out their name and you end up IMing the wrong person, and have to check transactions to see who may have sent it. 

Then you have that packing issue, making sure the box something comes in is no mod, so that nothing can happen with that if SL loses its mind.

Or what about the fact that so much of SL creation and selling is double working, if you sell clothing wearables etc, you make demos, well the demos have to be NO MOD right, so then the creator has to use the same exact mesh with the same exact set up (depending on their demos) and make sure it is all MOD again, that just leads to mistakes being made, because often you set a perm and the perm changes, again I have been privvy to being sent full perms or wrong perms items by creators and caught it early enough for them to fix. 

Then you have gatchas on top, they send to bloggers maybe or in group to share and they have to reset all those perms to make sure that they cannot sell them, but can use them, so again chance of perms getting messed up somewhere.

It is understandable that some just say NO MOD works for my workload, and if someone does have an issue, they can IM me, but that end part is often not communicated, and customers are often more used to getting no reply from creators about such things that they end up assuming they never could get that help or assistance. 

So creators if you do want to let people have mod options, but not make your items mod from the get go, maybe add a notecard of that, or let someone know, hey I am busy, really busy, but if you have a shade you prefer or a texture type IM me, I cannot promise you anything, but it never hurts to IM me, as I mentioned earlier, if a store does events that do recolours and the like, why not throw it in their IM that if they ever consider selling this item in one of those events, that you would love it in ___________ colour and include the colour example, again you lose nothing from doing so than the few minutes to do the IM.

I rambled again, sorry not sorry :P

 

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I should point out that I'm not saying and haven't said that anyone has a "right" to modify items in Second Life, nor that a merchant in Second Life "should" or "must" make their products modifiable.

However, if someone uses real-life copyright terms to justify their Second Life positions and their arguments aren't based on how those real-life laws work, I will point that out, repeatedly if necessary.

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6 hours ago, Sasy Scarborough said:

It is understandable that some just say NO MOD works for my workload, and if someone does have an issue, they can IM me, but that end part is often not communicated, and customers are often more used to getting no reply from creators about such things that they end up assuming they never could get that help or assistance. 

I've tried messaging creators, many times. Very very rarely there's a reply, and of those, a very very few are more than "take it or leave it" even though I've spent a tidy sum on a fatpack. I have gotten mod-perm versions this way, and those creators win repeat business from me, but really it's so rare it's almost misleading to even mention it.

Buyers who are satisfied with no-mod items, god love 'em, and the creators who cater to that market are just never going to understand why others of us are so dissatisfied being unable to adapt what we buy to our specific needs. It seems impossible to explain it in a way that gets past some impenetrable barrier.

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2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Buyers who are satisfied with no-mod items, god love 'em, and the creators who cater to that market are just never going to understand why others of us are so dissatisfied being unable to adapt what we buy to our specific needs. 

Because we don’t understand why you would buy no mod things then be dissatisfied you can’t mod them.

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2 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Because we don’t understand why you would buy no mod things then be dissatisfied you can’t mod them.

No, no, we mostly don't buy no-mod things, obviously. But in this thread we are repeatedly encouraged to do exactly that, and then beg the creators to let us mod them. Or give us some specially hand-crafted version of their stuff. I'm pointing out that this almost never works, so it's not entirely helpful to keep telling us to do it.

On the other hand, when I do buy a no-mod item and it contains a faulty auto-alpha script that cannot be removed (and these really cannot be readily detected in a five minute demo) I think I'm due a refund or a fix -- and that hardly ever works either.

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12 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

No, no, we mostly don't buy no-mod things, obviously. But in this thread we are repeatedly encouraged to do exactly that, and then beg the creators to let us mod them.

There are so many choices on the MP for any particular item one would want -- why wouldn't you seek out the version that can be modified and purchase that one?

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5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

There are so many choices on the MP for any particular item one would want -- why wouldn't you seek out the version that can be modified and purchase that one?

I can't tell if you're serious. Creators certainly imagine themselves adding more value than merely vending commodities. As much as I think SL creators tend to self-aggrandize, I'm apt to grant them the claim of some individual creativity now and then. Otherwise I'd just clothe myself from the Library folder.

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8 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:
16 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

There are so many choices on the MP for any particular item one would want -- why wouldn't you seek out the version that can be modified and purchase that one?

I can't tell if you're serious. Creators certainly imagine themselves adding more value than merely vending commodities. As much as I think SL creators tend to self-aggrandize, I'm apt to grant them the claim of some individual creativity now and then. Otherwise I'd just clothe myself from the Library folder.

I am serious.

But it's interesting you brought up the idea of creators being "merely vending commodities" because whenever I see this issue being argued over that's how I feel some customers view creators here. I think some would even be in favor of eliminating a creators ability to sell items in no-mod form if they had that ability. As you probably remember, it escalated to the point on another forum where they were calling a creator 'scum' and the like for wanting to sell her stuff no-mod.

We really shouldn't call people names or trash them by pointing out some item they created might not be worth much (as Teresa did with the white t-shirt) in order to make a point.

I respect your viewpoint, and actually most of my items are mod, but I don't see you attempting to understand  the person who wants to make no-mod items.

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36 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:
39 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

No, no, we mostly don't buy no-mod things, obviously. But in this thread we are repeatedly encouraged to do exactly that, and then beg the creators to let us mod them. Or give us some specially hand-crafted version of their stuff. I'm pointing out that this almost never works, so it's not entirely helpful to keep telling us to do it.

 On the other hand, when I do buy a no-mod item and it contains a faulty auto-alpha script that cannot be removed (and these really cannot be readily detected in a five minute demo) I think I'm due a refund or a fix -- and that hardly ever works either.

 

Mostly we have said the same thing we always say: don’t buy no mod if you like to mod.

Thats it!  If someone suggests anything else, it’s ways you might get a creator to accomodate your desire to mod some no mod thing you inexplicably bought, which most have no interst in doing.

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29 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't see you attempting to understand  the person who wants to make no-mod items.

The point is, they don’t need to understand or accept it. No one needs to do anything just because someone else wants them to. Creators are free to make things with whatever perms they want, people are free to either not buy or buy and complain in the forum, we are free to repeat some version of this sentence. All ad infinitum. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I've tried messaging creators, many times. Very very rarely there's a reply, and of those, a very very few are more than "take it or leave it" even though I've spent a tidy sum on a fatpack. I have gotten mod-perm versions this way, and those creators win repeat business from me, but really it's so rare it's almost misleading to even mention it.

Buyers who are satisfied with no-mod items, god love 'em, and the creators who cater to that market are just never going to understand why others of us are so dissatisfied being unable to adapt what we buy to our specific needs. It seems impossible to explain it in a way that gets past some impenetrable barrier.

Ditto this.

However, some creators get it, for example, this:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Itos-Oriental-Sampan-drivable-copy/7538152 (L$750 - Copy/No-modify)

Versus this:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Itos-Oriental-Sampan-drivable-copy-mod/12185246 (L$1,250 Copy/Modify)

Now the buyer has a choice. If you really want a modify version, then the extra cost should be worth it to you, right? It was to me (so I could replace the scripts with an AVsitter version - that's it, my only desired mod).

My wish is that more creators would take this approach. I know in the old days, and some still do it, creators would offer two versions of their stuff: a transfer version and a copy version, sometimes the copy version cost more. I always went with the costlier one (and it was worth it to me). If more did what this guy is doing (MP links above) - then I can evaluate the cost-to-benefit ratio and purchase accordingly. The important thing is *I have a choice*. (And, yeah, I did buy the copy/modify version for 1200L - and happy with it; no regrets at all.)

Edited by Alyona Su

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

There are so many choices on the MP for any particular item one would want -- why wouldn't you seek out the version that can be modified and purchase that one?

 

39 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I am serious.

But it's interesting you brought up the idea of creators being "merely vending commodities" because whenever I see this issue being argued over that's how I feel some customers view creators here.

IF an item can be bought from a variety of sources with them all being basically interchangeable,

THEN it is a commodity.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/commodity.html

 

The "just buy a modify one" argument will only be appropriate for things that are essentially commodities, and that argument is coming from the creators.

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

My wish is that more creators would take this approach.

Oh it is? Well in that case I will get busy making no mod versions of my thousand + products, so everyone can have a choice. Actually I will need to make four versions so no one is left out:  c m , c, ct, and t

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There are so many No-Mod items because - wait for it - the average consumer does not care about the item permissions.

That's it.

There's no market force at work here, no creator/merchant catering to any particular clientele on this (despite some here claiming otherwise) .... That's it, that's all.

Argue about it, protest it heck even get upset about it until the cows come home - it won't change that simple fact.

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1 minute ago, Pamela Galli said:

Oh it is? Well in that case I will get busy making no mod versions of my thousand + products, so everyone can have a choice. Actually I will need to make four versions so no one is left out:  c m , c, ct, and t

Oh for .... spare the melodramatics, please?

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9 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

There are so many No-Mod items because - wait for it - the average consumer does not care about the item permissions.

That's it.

There's no market force at work here, no creator/merchant catering to any particular clientele on this (despite some here claiming otherwise) .... That's it, that's all.

Argue about it, protest it heck even get upset about it until the cows come home - it won't change that simple fact.

What they care about is: price. 

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4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I've tried messaging creators, many times. Very very rarely there's a reply, and of those, a very very few are more than "take it or leave it" even though I've spent a tidy sum on a fatpack. I have gotten mod-perm versions this way, and those creators win repeat business from me, but really it's so rare it's almost misleading to even mention it.

Not misleading at all, I would encourage people to do so so that a creator does see it is a want by many, to perhaps rethink their perms, or rethink their colour palette, those that stick to one set of colours for everything may need a shake, not all items work with the same colours. Just as many wont IM a creator when something is wrong, for fear of interupting etc. If they don't know, how can it be fixed. As I said, contacting may never get anything, but there is never harm in respectfully trying. I once blogged that an outfit (system layers) was flattened upper lower, but was a vest over pants, I mentioned how I wished it could be worn other ways, with the vest part its own top. The bottom of vest was flattened to the pants. Then I let creator know of the post, the outfit was amazing no fault, just flattening layers was a thing...within two hours creator had opened PS separated and saved the layers, and she uploaded repackaged sent me new and put in store....I edited post to give her all the praise...that was Izzie's , she had just not imagined the tuxedo style bodysuit to be wanted differently. She is even more amazing now. 

Creators can often be hermits, again if done respectfully once, it could lead to changes down the line, your IM may not cause action, but it may pile on with others that do.

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1 minute ago, Pamela Galli said:

What they care about is: price. 

Most, yes.

Personal example: I recently swapped mesh body systems (daily driver swap, not total swap) for humanoid types. The one I swapped to does not come with its own head/the creator has not made a head for it. The head recommended by the creator costs almost as much as the rent on my PI 4096 plot (5k) whereas the head line recommended on another forum (1k) - guess which one I have gone with?

Do I intend to get the 5k head? Eventually, when I can justify the cost. Until then, it sits in my Wish List.

Perms on the 5k head? C/M/T. Perms on the 1k head? C/M/T.

One is a royal PITA to color match to the body (1k) out of the box where as the other one -supposedly - can be easily matched.

Funny that the more expensive one has more restrictions than the cheaper one ... And no, I do not believe for a single second that the added cost has much to do with added work in this instance.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Sasy Scarborough said:

Creators can often be hermits, again if done respectfully once, it could lead to changes down the line, your IM may not cause action, but it may pile on with others that do.

Creators can often be quite responsive to customer wishes and suggestions. The key word being “customer”.  Some random critic or forumite who has never shown interest in the creator’s products, not so much. (“I am not going to buy your stuff unless you change it to suit me!” has no effect.)

Edited by Pamela Galli
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35 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Oh it is? Well in that case I will get busy making no mod versions of my thousand + products, so everyone can have a choice. Actually I will need to make four versions so no one is left out:  c m , c, ct, and t

Then what are you waiting for, get started. NAO. ~chortles~

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37 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Argue about it, protest it heck even get upset about it until the cows come home - it won't change that simple fact.

So true and sometimes the truth hurts. LOL As I've previously stated, for me, I couldn't care less about the modify permission unless it's something I want or need to modify, in which case then I vote with my dollars. In my above "choice" example, I suppose my real point was this: I spent more for the modifiable version, but if that modifiable version didn't exist I would have spent zero.

I have always and still see the modify option as a contextual scenario: it doesn't really matter unless you have a need or desire to actually modify something.

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