Why do people support sellers that do no mod?

[Blush Bravin]

5 hours ago, Nextio said:

Modifying the various aspects of the product could also potentially hurt sales if others see it in a distorted modified state.

There is another aspect to this. I wear an old flexi hairstyle most of the time. I get lots of compliments on that hair even in this day of mesh hair with flexi constantly being put down. I have modded the heck out of that hair. I've made it shorter, I've changed the parameters of the flexi in every strand of hair, so essentially the only thing that really looks like the original is the textures. A lot of people message me and want to know where I got the hair, so much so that I wonder how many are just checking on their own and not asking me. The problem is should anyone go buy that hair thinking it's going to look like the one I wear they are going to be disappointed because it truly is not the same. Now do I have a problem with that, of course not, and I assume the creator doesn't either as she sold the hair mod. But it still stands to reason that customers who want that hair are going to be disappointed and wonder why the hair they try on at the store is so different from what they saw me wearing. I just hope they don't message the creator and complain about it. 

By the way, when someone does message me I do tell them where I got the hair but I also tell them to demo carefully because what they see on me is not what the actual hair looks like.

[Marianne Little]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

Unfortunately, I think this kind of belief probably prevents people from even contacting the creator thinking that they won't get any kind of response. 

When I buy something, no matter if it's a used gacha or a 1000L furniture, I never really believe there will be support. Call it prejudice.

I think: Do I want this enough to buy it, even if the creator will not give me any support? (and I have seen some horrible profiles) Most times the answer is yes, I buy it, even if it is no copy.

I have had some positive experiences. But not many enough that I want to ask for things like this. No reply makes me feel smaller. I write it off as a loss if I destroy a no copy. Maybe we ask different creators for help, maybe I can't write a notecard well enough. Maybe they are more eager to help a fellow creator. I don't know.

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by Marianne Little
added a word

[Blush Bravin]

5 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

Maybe they are more eager to help a fellow creator. I don't know.

I really am a small time creator. I doubt the ones I've contacted even knew I was a creator. I'm much more visible now as Debi than I ever was as Blush, and it wasn't until very recently that the Debi/Blush connection was even visible, so I seriously doubt that this had anything to do with their responses.

6 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

maybe I can't write a notecard well enough.

My approach is that I know they don't owe it to me, but I'd be ever so grateful if they could help me. And then I explain my needs, and thank them for considering my request. I never approach any creator as though they owe me anything. I really think this is the reason I nearly never have a poor response from a creator. Also, I don't contact them for trivial things. It's really got to be important to me to make the effort. 

[Selene Gregoire]

 

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

19 hours ago, Cinos Field said:

Creators are not inherently better at making appealing designs than modders.

Like I said, if you feel this way, then buy full perm mesh from full perm sellers so you can make your own designs. If you want to make your own designs because you don't like mine, then do it. But that doesn't change my decision to protect my work and declare my copyright on it. I do not allow derivative works. Full stop. You not liking that doesn't change that choice.

[Alyona Su]

2 hours ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

I do not allow derivative works. Full stop.

It is only a derivative work if redistributed. Until then it is only private customization. Just saying.

As to the thread topic; I personally don't have an issue with the modify/no-modify scenario. Clothing? Sure, no-modify is no big deal. A boat or plane, or other vehicles, etc.? Absolutely must have modify permissions or no sale. I see it all as context-based; what will it be used for and how will it be used. Clothing with a texture-changer is just fine for me, but if it's something that I rez then I take into consideration whether I will want to attach anything to it, change the scripts inside it, etc.

Threads like this phrased the way the OP phrased it actually make me chuckle. Just vote with your dollars, shut-up, and move on. It's the same rule with modify/no-modify for me as it is with presale demos: no demo=no sale. I don't gripe about it; I just make the decision to buy or not.

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

17 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

It is only a derivative work if redistributed. Until then it is only private customization. Just saying.

That's not really how copyright law works.

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

17 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

It is only a derivative work if redistributed. Until then it is only private customization. Just saying.

That's not really how copyright law works.

[Qie Niangao]

21 hours ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

Like I said, if you feel this way, then buy full perm mesh from full perm sellers so you can make your own designs. If you want to make your own designs because you don't like mine, then do it. But that doesn't change my decision to protect my work and declare my copyright on it. I do not allow derivative works. Full stop. You not liking that doesn't change that choice.

You can restrict your products however you want, that's true. That does however restrict your market to those who want only exactly what you produce. Maybe in your case that's okay, I don't know what you create, but in a very large number of creators' cases, it's a lethal limitation.

This is particularly true at the higher-end of the clothing market: If I can't tint an item by a few degrees K, it's going to end up in my Trash sooner than later. It needs to fit with other stuff, and one creator's white light is never the same as another's. Sure, there are buyers who just can't see the difference, but they're probably not buying the good stuff anyway.

A bigger problem right now, though, is no-mod scripted mesh clothing that doesn't permit full removal of scripts (even if maybe their hacky resizer script comes with a Delete option). There are threads all over the Server forum right now about how script-laggy the sims have become since mesh bodies, hair, heads, and clothing have grown in popularity. There are a bunch of reasons that's happened, even some we may not yet understand, but it's a dead certainty that a significant share of it is down to scripts stranded in no-mod mesh clothing that can't be removed.

(Don't even get me started on how bad many of those scripts are.)

[Fionalein]

38 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

A bigger problem right now, though, is no-mod scripted mesh clothing that doesn't permit full removal of scripts.

Has anyone ever tried filing a Jira for allowing us to remove/disable scripts in no mod items? I know some creators will cry out in pain if something like that ever happened - but it is their fault it had to come to it.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

This is particularly true at the higher-end of the clothing market: If I can't tint an item by a few degrees K, it's going to end up in my Trash sooner than later. It needs to fit with other stuff, and one creator's white light is never the same as another's. Sure, there are buyers who just can't see the difference, but they're probably not buying the good stuff anyway.

A bigger problem right now, though, is no-mod scripted mesh clothing that doesn't permit full removal of scripts (even if maybe their hacky resizer script comes with a Delete option). There are threads all over the Server forum right now about how script-laggy the sims have become since mesh bodies, hair, heads, and clothing have grown in popularity. There are a bunch of reasons that's happened, even some we may not yet understand, but it's a dead certainty that a significant share of it is down to scripts stranded in no-mod mesh clothing that can't be removed.

(Don't even get me started on how bad many of those scripts are.)

Most clothing creators make tops and bottoms in set so the colors match. What are you trying to match it to? Also, do you buy clothing in RL and dye it to match something else? 

I have been trying to figure out in this whole thread what script for clothing, aside from a color/texture HUD or the auto alpha, you guys could be talking about. I cant come up with anything. So, why would you want to kill the color/texture HUD or auto alpha script? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of buying a hudded clothing? A single HUD script in a dress is a tiny drain. More likely its the hundreds of scripted animals and vendors that are lagging things out. 

[Qie Niangao]

3 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Most clothing creators make tops and bottoms in set so the colors match. What are you trying to match it to? Also, do you buy clothing in RL and dye it to match something else? 

I have been trying to figure out in this whole thread what script for clothing, aside from a color/texture HUD or the auto alpha, you guys could be talking about. I cant come up with anything. So, why would you want to kill the color/texture HUD or auto alpha script? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of buying a hudded clothing? A single HUD script in a dress is a tiny drain. More likely its the hundreds of scripted animals and vendors that are lagging things out. 

I don't care about my appearance in RL -- in fact, I'm rather proud of not caring about that -- so I'm fine with buying stuff off-the-rack. In SL I have much different expectations, otherwise I wouldn't buy the stuff at all. I expect, for example, to be able to make as many copies of a thing as I want and store them in "outfits" I can swap instantaneously. I can't do that in RL either, but if I couldn't do it in SL, I just wouldn't buy much. And I really don't think it's all that much to ask of creators to show a little forbearance and just not flip the permissions bit that deprives us of an ability inherent to the medium.

It's unclear how anybody who actually wears SL clothes could ask why folks want to remove scripts. For one thing, one makes copies of fatpack items with the texture settings as desired, rather than linking to the same copy in multiple outfits which would entail re-texturing them each time they're worn in a different outfit from the last time. Once a copy is set, there's no reason to use the scripts in that copy again.

I've been attending the user groups lately: there is no such thing as a "tiny drain" from any script that's set running, even if it has no active event handler at all. We scripters (and maybe the Lindens) are only beginning to appreciate how much overhead is in the scheduler, now that there are so very many scripts to be scheduled. They're planning to investigate if that overhead might be reduced in future, but it's approaching crisis in many sims now, with a diminishing percentage of scripts run per frame.

Oh, right, the auto-alpha thing: More often than not, the alpha cuts set by these scripts are valid only for the "extra medium" avatar shape, over a limited range of animations. This isn't really the fault of the creator: mesh clothing can be only so precisely fitted to a mesh body. What is the creators' fault is not realizing that the settings that look great in their studio on their fitting model can never be adequate to everyone who wants to use their products in every situation.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Most clothing creators make tops and bottoms in set so the colors match. What are you trying to match it to? Also, do you buy clothing in RL and dye it to match something else? 

I have been trying to figure out in this whole thread what script for clothing, aside from a color/texture HUD or the auto alpha, you guys could be talking about. I cant come up with anything. So, why would you want to kill the color/texture HUD or auto alpha script? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of buying a hudded clothing? A single HUD script in a dress is a tiny drain. More likely its the hundreds of scripted animals and vendors that are lagging things out. 

1) You sometimes want to wear a top from one place with a bottom from another, or, thinking of two extremely popular clothing manufacturers, deal with the fact that their colors don't match from one set to another even if the color  names suggest that they should.

2) I work in the theatrical costume design field. We buy things to dye all the time.

3) After I changed an item to the color I wanted, why would I ever want to wear that script again?

4) Your faith in autohide scripts is charming, but many have found it to be misplaced.

 

ETA - although I will acknowledge that no-mod does have one valuable trait - if a piece of clothing is using a copyrighted or trademarked character (like, say, Sanrio's Hello Kitty), it does make it clear who the responsible party is.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Theresa Tennyson

[Alyona Su]

5 hours ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

That's not really how copyright law works.

Cite your source. My RL work requires me to know copyright inside and out.

[Qie Niangao]

3 hours ago, Fionalein said:

Has anyone ever tried filing a Jira for allowing us to remove/disable scripts in no mod items? I know some creators will cry out in pain if something like that ever happened - but it is their fault it had to come to it.

Yeah, there are several in fact, going back a ways. Here's one from 2010. (I think that's old enough that it's visible to all.) If memory serves, that's after Mono, the introduction of which caused an earlier script load crisis because at first attached Mono scripts gobbled up enough memory to cause serious thrashing as the sims paged RAM to disk and back. To get through that, I'm not sure whether they added more memory to the sim hosts or changed the Mono implementation -- I suspect both. But that jira was never closed out, and there are others.

I doubt they'll ever get much attention, though, unless the situation gets even worse -- as it may, if no-mod clothing keeps accumulating unremovable scripts.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Most clothing creators make tops and bottoms in set so the colors match. What are you trying to match it to?

Well, potentially lots of different things. Mix and match is a way of creating unique looks for oneself, and making one's wardrobe stretch further by creating new outfits from a variety of sources. So, this top with that skirt, with those shoes. Arguing that we should be happy to wear, without modifying or changing things up, whatever creator puts together as a complete outfit is a bit like suggesting that we don't really need customizable mesh bodies and heads, or a choice of skins, because the creator has already put together something that "looks nice."

2 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Also, do you buy clothing in RL and dye it to match something else?

Yes, sometimes. Or take it in, let it out, remove elements I don't like, or even add things I do. And unlike Theresa, I'm not even in theatre. In addition to just ensuring that something looks good on one's one uniquely shaped body, it's a way of creating one's own style -- in SL as in RL.

2 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So, why would you want to kill the color/texture HUD or auto alpha script? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of buying a hudded clothing?

Qie and Theresa addressed this already. I get the sense that you don't put your outfits together the way that most -- or many, at least -- people do. When I choose to wear a saved outfit, I don't want to then have to mess around changing colours, textures, or (where applicable) sizing, so I save a copy of each of the things I'm wearing that has already been tailored to fit the look of that particular outfit.

And autohide is just a pain: as often as not, it glitches and hides parts it shouldn't, and it seldom does a good job of matching my particular shape. I have it disabled on my body HUD. I don't need it because, like the clothing for an outfit, I save a copy of my body to which the desired alpha cuts have already been applied, so that I don't have to spend two or three minutes customizing it (or open my mesh body HUD to do it). All of those scripts are not merely unnecessary: they are an annoyance.

None of this necessarily implies that creators should be compelled to make things mod so that scripts can be removed, but the clever ones will realize that mod goes hand in hand with copy, and that, at the very least, they need to add a "remove scripts" button to their HUDs. It is a factor I consider when I buy things.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 hours ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

That's not really how copyright law works.

Yeah, it kinda is, actually.

If I buy a tee shirt, I can dye it, cut it up, rip it, add stuff to it, or use it as a dishrag. It's only an issue if I decide to start redistributing reproductions of it.

Also, most copyright law has a provision for the artistic reuse and reproduction, within limits, of copyrighted images, words, ideas, and objects.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

1) You sometimes want to wear a top from one place with a bottom from another, or, thinking of two extremely popular clothing manufacturers, deal with the fact that their colors don't match from one set to another even if the color  names suggest that they should.

 

55 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, potentially lots of different things. Mix and match is a way of creating unique looks for oneself, and making one's wardrobe stretch further by creating new outfits from a variety of sources. So, this top with that skirt, with those shoes. Arguing that we should be happy to wear, without modifying or changing things up, whatever creator puts together as a complete outfit is a bit like suggesting that we don't really need customizable mesh bodies and heads, or a choice of skins, because the creator has already put together something that "looks nice."

So, how do you go about tint matching a textured patterned piece of clothing? Primary colors i can get behind, but realistically, how many blank pieces of clothing do you have? No pattern at all? Even if its a blue texture, you still have to try and match the color by tinting an already colored texture. 

One thing that keeps popping up in these threads is the complaint that merchants make primary colors only. Have any of you tried asking a merchant for a specific color? I have had customers ask for a specific hex code color of an outfit. I made it for them with no extra cost. Its just good business. They would NOT have been able to tint it that way. it had a pattern running down the side.

Try asking nicely. Also, dont make you first purchase something you had to ask for a specific color for. If some random person out of the blue says, "Hey can you make this outfit in ______ color?" More than likely I will say no if they have never bought anything of mine before. Or i will charge them for custom work. Regular customers, i will do free work for. They already support me. More than once i have done custom work taking hours of time to make to the letter what someone asked for only to have them say "That is perfect but, I changed my mind.." 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Qie and Theresa addressed this already. I get the sense that you don't put your outfits together the way that most -- or many, at least -- people do. When I choose to wear a saved outfit, I don't want to then have to mess around changing colours, textures, or (where applicable) sizing, so I save a copy of each of the things I'm wearing that has already been tailored to fit the look of that particular outfit.

And autohide is just a pain: as often as not, it glitches and hides parts it shouldn't, and it seldom does a good job of matching my particular shape. I have it disabled on my body HUD. I don't need it because, like the clothing for an outfit, I save a copy of my body to which the desired alpha cuts have already been applied, so that I don't have to spend two or three minutes customizing it (or open my mesh body HUD to do it). All of those scripts are not merely unnecessary: they are an annoyance.

None of this necessarily implies that creators should be compelled to make things mod so that scripts can be removed, but the clever ones will realize that mod goes hand in hand with copy, and that, at the very least, they need to add a "remove scripts" button to their HUDs. It is a factor I consider when I buy things.

Well, as a creator i have a huge enough inventory as it is.. Aside from that, i think i only have two things that are Hudded clothing, a Tux and a kilt. The tux i dont mind changing with the hud. and the kilt is pretty much just for the belt. 

I was honestly asking as i dont make Hudded clothing or even use the auto hide as it can bork out and some people just dont need it. 

3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

4) Your faith in autohide scripts is charming, but many have found it to be misplaced.

I have no faith in anything SL related. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 3/24/2019 at 6:36 AM, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

Like I said, if you feel this way, then buy full perm mesh from full perm sellers so you can make your own designs. If you want to make your own designs because you don't like mine, then do it. But that doesn't change my decision to protect my work and declare my copyright on it. I do not allow derivative works. Full stop. You not liking that doesn't change that choice.

In saying that, you're saying that nobody can take a picture of an avatar wearing a piece of your clothing.

Which you can't.

What you can do, and are doing, is use the Second Life permissions system to keep an end user from modifying things they buy from you.

Thereby protecting the artistic vision of items like this:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Kids-Crew-Neck-Tee-Ribbed-White/9888752

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So, how do you go about tint matching a textured patterned piece of clothing? Primary colors i can get behind, but realistically, how many blank pieces of clothing do you have? No pattern at all? Even if its a blue texture, you still have to try and match the color by tinting an already colored texture. 

It's highly dependent on the texture and the need. Some textures -- generally those that are light or (better still) have high contrast -- tint better than others. Tinting can also wash out the underlying texture if you aren't careful. It's very much trial and error: sometimes it works well and sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, I scrap the attempt. Also, in my experience this is more applicable to hair than to clothing.

Just to demonstrate that it can work, i should mention that i have a couple of pieces of clothing and at least four hair styles that include not only conventional colour/texture HUDs, but also colour picker HUDs. So retinting is built into the product.

To be clear, I don't retint a lot. It's a matter of need coinciding with opportunity. If for some reason I want to modify the colour of something that is mod, then I'll try it. I would do it more often if I had more clothes and hair styles that were mod, but it's still not something I would do for fun.

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Have any of you tried asking a merchant for a specific color?

Nope, I never have. Maybe I should one day.

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

16 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

In saying that, you're saying that nobody can take a picture of an avatar wearing a piece of your clothing.

Which you can't.

What you can do, and are doing, is use the Second Life permissions system to keep an end user from modifying things they buy from you.

Thereby protecting the artistic vision of items like this:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Kids-Crew-Neck-Tee-Ribbed-White/9888752

Context is a funny thing. Yes, I made a plain coloured shirt. Would you like a gold star for noticing that? And since that is your only example, I'm going to assume you didn't bother to check my store to see anything more than that.

I do not allow derivative works. Full. *****ing. Stop. Why is that so hard for you to understand? I don't care what your reasoning is for wanting to deface my work, and frankly do not care. If you want to make yoir own clothes, then make your own clothes. I'm sick of this petty witch hunt from people who aren't even my customers.

[Solar Legion]

Oh for the love of ...

The entire point went right over your head. Not very surprising either.

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 hours ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

I do not allow derivative works. Full. *****ing. Stop. Why is that so hard for you to understand? I don't care what your reasoning is for wanting to deface my work, and frankly do not care. If you want to make yoir own clothes, then make your own clothes. I'm sick of this petty witch hunt from people who aren't even my customers.

You don't understand what a derivative work is. Why is that so ha...

 

Oh, wait...

Anyway, the owner of an item also has rights to their legally purchased property. Your tattoo artist can't tell you where you can take your shirt off even though you'll be "displaying their work", for instance...

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/the-first-sale-doctrine.html

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/can-i-alter-or-make-art-from-books-prints-other-copyrighted-works-without-getting-sued-for-infringement.html

Edited March 26, 2019 by Theresa Tennyson

[Fionalein]

2 hours ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

I don't care what your reasoning is for wanting to deface my work, and frankly do not care.

So as I see in your opinion the only person entitled to deface your "artistic" work is Y O U ! Congrats! By falling back to swear words you do a good job at it right now  

 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Fionalein