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WingalingDragon

Why do people support sellers that do no mod?

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1 minute ago, Alyona Su said:

So true and sometimes the truth hurts. LOL As I've previously stated, for me, I couldn't care less about the modify permission unless it's something I want or need to modify, in which case then I vote with my dollars. In my above "choice" example, I suppose my real point was this: I spent more for the modifiable version, but if that modifiable version didn't exist I would have spent zero.

I have always and still see the modify option as a contextual scenario: it doesn't really matter unless you have a need or desire to actually modify something.

True and it will be quite different from person to person as well.

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1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

There are so many No-Mod items because - wait for it - the average consumer does not care about the item permissions.

That's it.

There's no market force at work here, no creator/merchant catering to any particular clientele on this (despite some here claiming otherwise) .... That's it, that's all.

Argue about it, protest it heck even get upset about it until the cows come home - it won't change that simple fact.

I think if we repeat it every page or so people will finally understand that.

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1 hour ago, Pamela Galli said:

The point is, they don’t need to understand or accept it. No one needs to do anything just because someone else wants them to. Creators are free to make things with whatever perms they want, people are free to either not buy or buy and complain in the forum, we are free to repeat some version of this sentence. All ad infinitum. 

I wish people would grant each other the right of freedom in the way you've stated, but I'm not sure we're all so separated out as you're describing here -- creators need customers and customers need creators, and so it gets a little messy as they sort out who gets what. Freedom is seldom given to anyone in society unless there is a reason for granting it. All sorts of examples in RL demonstrate this dynamic. While SL has differences from RL, I think it still holds that if one side doesn't see a reason for granting certain freedoms they tend to think the other side is taking something away from them and so try to limit freedoms on the other side.
I don't see a way out of this unless both sides understand each other better and so become more tolerant of each others needs/preferences -- see a reason to grant freedoms to the other side.

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1 hour ago, Pamela Galli said:

Oh it is? Well in that case I will get busy making no mod versions of my thousand + products, so everyone can have a choice. Actually I will need to make four versions so no one is left out:  c m , c, ct, and t

haha, I don't know what it is about this thread but I am now itching to make a bunch of no-mod stuff!

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1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

IF an item can be bought from a variety of sources with them all being basically interchangeable,

THEN it is a commodity.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/commodity.html

 

The "just buy a modify one" argument will only be appropriate for things that are essentially commodities, and that argument is coming from the creators.

If a creator sells an item as no-mod they do not intend for it to be a commodity -- they intend for it to be unique -- and it is usually the texturing of the mesh that makes it unique (the form, not so much if at all).

If a customer sells their item with mod permissions they are providing a commodity, or at the very least not caring if the customer treats it as such.
In other words, it is what the customer does to the item, how they change it through retexturing, that actually turns it into a commodity.

So if a customer wants to retexture an item just buy the commodity version. Why buy the nicely textured non-commodity one if you're just going to retexture it and ample versions exist with mod permissions where you can fiddle with it all you want!

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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

If a creator sells an item as no-mod they do not intend for it to be a commodity -- they intend for it to be unique -- and it is usually the texturing of the mesh that makes it unique (the form, not so much if at all).

If a customer sells their item with mod permissions they are providing a commodity, or at the very least not caring if the customer treats it as such.
In other words, it is what the customer does to the item, how they change it through retexturing, that actually turns it into a commodity.

So if a customer wants to retexture an item just buy the commodity version. Why buy the nicely textured non-commodity one if you're just going to retexture it and ample versions exist with mod permissions where you can fiddle with it all you want!

Many of the reasons to want modifiable clothing don't involve re-texturing it, or even changing its appearance at all. It's entirely possible to be completely satisfied with how the merchant textured the item but want it to be modifiable to add or subtract scripts, link it to other items, etc.

There's this concern coming from some merchants that a customer will see their unique creation, buy it and immediately swap out their handcrafted texture.

Hmmm...

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Re-texturing isn't all there is to modding a purchased item.

Perhaps I'd like to link the ottoman to the chair so when I move them they move together and can be re-positioned. Unlinked, you have to spend twice as much time moving and positioning. Sorry, you can't save your self time (which you have less and less of as you grow older) and effort because a creator says you can't because they're afraid you're going to ruin the furniture.

Perhaps I'd like to add some animations to an item or adjust the script a bit to more accurately fit*. No, I'm stuck with the ones already there that having me sitting too high or too low and are just not intended for shorter avatars.

No mod tosses "your world, your imagination" right out the window. 

 

*True, not everyone should be dinking around with scripts. There can be some really horrific unintended results.

 

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5 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Many of the reasons to want modifiable clothing don't involve re-texturing it, or even changing its appearance at all. It's entirely possible to be completely satisfied with how the merchant textured the item but want it to be modifiable to add or subtract scripts, link it to other items, etc.

There's this concern coming from some merchants that a customer will see their unique creation, buy it and immediately swap out their handcrafted texture.

Hmmm...

Well yes, I'm speaking to retexturing and not modifying through scripts or linking. I do think retexturing is the most common way people modify...at least it has been so with my customers.

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8 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Many of the reasons to want modifiable clothing don't involve re-texturing it, or even changing its appearance at all. It's entirely possible to be completely satisfied with how the merchant textured the item but want it to be modifiable to add or subtract scripts, link it to other items, etc.

You beat me to it. lol

Quote

There's this concern coming from some merchants that a customer will see their unique creation, buy it and immediately swap out their handcrafted texture.

Hmmm...

Exactly.

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8 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Perhaps I'd like to link the ottoman to the chair so when I move them they move together and can be re-positioned.

Is there a lot of no-mod furniture? I'm really not familiar with furniture or clothes so don't know all the issues here.

I'd suggest buying the best though, Pamela's -- all her creations are mod..

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As always, the entire point being made goes right over some user's heads ... Examples are being given, these examples are not meant to reflect what may or may not actually be happening - they are meant to demonstrate the bloody point.

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Some of us are on very limited, low incomes and can't afford to spend thousands of Ls to replace everything we already have or made ourselves. I suppose we shouldn't be allowed in SL since we have so little money to spare. 9_9

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3 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Some of us are on very limited, low incomes and can't afford to spend thousands of Ls to replace everything we already have or made ourselves. I suppose we shouldn't be allowed in SL since we have so little money to spare. 9_9

Yes I was thinking exactly that, Selene -- only the wealthy need be in SL!   /sarcasm

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44 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

If a creator sells an item as no-mod they do not intend for it to be a commodity -- they intend for it to be unique -- and it is usually the texturing of the mesh that makes it unique (the form, not so much if at all).

I don't actually think any of this is correct, but even if it were, it would absolutely not mean that the same item, set modifiable, is somehow more a commodity. An item does not gain value by being crippled by its creator, destined never to become any more interesting nor innovative than that creator's view of its potential.

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

If a creator sells an item as no-mod they do not intend for it to be a commodity -- they intend for it to be unique

From a logical perspective, this makes little sense, Luna.

How does using no mod perms to ensure that something is replicated across the grid in (potentially) hundreds or thousands of completely identical copies make that item "unique"?

It's a bit like saying that your Big Mac is "unique" because it tastes, looks, and smells exactly the same anywhere you can purchase it.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 It's a bit like saying that your Big Mac is "unique" because it tastes, looks, and smells exactly the same anywhere you can purchase it.

But you have to admit: wherever you buy it, it has the same unique disgusting BigMac taste =^.^=

Edited by Fionalein
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15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:
1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

If a creator sells an item as no-mod they do not intend for it to be a commodity -- they intend for it to be unique

From a logical perspective, this makes little sense, Luna.

How does using no mod perms to ensure that something is replicated across the grid in (potentially) hundreds or thousands of completely identical copies make that item "unique"?

Haha, you remind me of an old college instructor who said "Luna, can you elaborate a little more"? :) 
The word 'unique' is not the right word, and I'm not sure what is. I would say that someone who creates a no-mod mesh and textures it sometimes feels that the form and texture flow together so well, exist in such balance, that it should not be separated. Maybe the word is 'harmony' -- yes, they intend for it to maintain its harmony.

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33 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:
1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

If a creator sells an item as no-mod they do not intend for it to be a commodity -- they intend for it to be unique -- and it is usually the texturing of the mesh that makes it unique (the form, not so much if at all).

I don't actually think any of this is correct, but even if it were, it would absolutely not mean that the same item, set modifiable, is somehow more a commodity. An item does not gain value by being crippled by its creator, destined never to become any more interesting nor innovative than that creator's view of its potential.

Crippling or no, sometimes a creator just wants to keep something as they designed it.

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The funny thing is, rather than being 'selfish' as some proclaim the creator of a no-mod item to be, when I create something I don't want to be changed, I feel I did not create it at all. Something else did, and so this must be preserved if possible.

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14 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Haha, you remind me of an old college instructor who said "Luna, can you elaborate a little more"? :) 
The word 'unique' is not the right word, and I'm not sure what is. I would say that someone who creates a no-mod mesh and textures it sometimes feels that the form and texture flow together so well, exist in such balance, that it should not be separated. Maybe the word is 'harmony' -- yes, they intend for it to maintain its harmony.

You're the second SL acquaintance who has commented that I sound like a professor in less that 24 hours. Ugh. Don't!

There's a consensus here that it is the creator's right to choose the perms for the items that they make and sell. And I entirely get that someone might be so pleased with and proud of what they produced that they don't want it messed with.

A consumer might feel otherwise though. I might value the integrity of your artistic vision more if it were something I was framing and hanging on my wall. But for objects of personal adornment, my house, my furniture . . . well, not so much. These things I choose because they are supposed to say something about me, about my taste, not yours. And so I'm much more likely to buy something that will serve as a canvas for me to express myself. Most often that is quite simple: mixing and matching clothing, for instance. Sometimes it's more involved.

As a creator you can object to that and limit it with perms. And that's fine: your choice. But you're less likely to win me as a customer if you do. Really, it's as simple as that.

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2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

There's a consensus here that it is the creator's right to choose the perms for the items that they make and sell.

I'm not entirely sure there's any argument at all that there is anything wrong with that. I think the points some are trying to make is "By offering only no-modify content, you are likely leaving money on the table". At least, that's the main gist I get from the overall direction of the conversation. And it's always true: You are always "leaving money on the table" unless you cater to as many purchaser desires as possible.

People who create clothes and don't include Tonic are leaving money on the table. People who leave Venus out of their Belleza selections are leaving a lot of money on the table. This just happens to be a thread about someone whining about modify permissions, and I do mean whining. because where there is an item with no-modify permissions, there is a similar item by another creator that likely does have modify permissions.

I don't think there's really much of a debate on this and I don't believe (or hopefully in this case) that anyone is actually trying to change anyone else's mind here. That would be spinning wheels and going nowhere really fast, forever. LOL :)

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

A consumer might feel otherwise though. I might value the integrity of your artistic vision more if it were something I was framing and hanging on my wall. But for objects of personal adornment, my house, my furniture . . . well, not so much. These things I choose because they are supposed to say something about me, about my taste, not yours. And so I'm much more likely to buy something that will serve as a canvas for me to express myself. Most often that is quite simple: mixing and matching clothing, for instance. Sometimes it's more involved.

As a creator you can object to that and limit it with perms. And that's fine: your choice. But you're less likely to win me as a customer if you do. Really, it's as simple as that.

 

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

No mod tosses "your world, your imagination" right out the window. 

uhhuh.gif.8437cd81436af969dce9a24da71848d8.gif

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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1 minute ago, Alyona Su said:

People who create clothes and don't include Tonic are leaving money on the table. People who leave Venus out of their Belleza selections are leaving a lot of money on the table.

No they usually don't. They first have to sell enough items to those two usergroups to justify the extra rigging cost... most simply won't.

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13 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

No they usually don't. They first have to sell enough items to those two usergroups to justify the extra rigging cost... most simply won't.

Surely. Though that cost is really just time an effort. Though those that do support those other bodies seem to be doing very well, Blueberry and GAS for example and GAS supports Tonic, too - and amazingly very inexpensive and 95% perfect fit for all my bodies (meaning: very nice quality). So their average price being 200L a "fat-pack" and still doing Tonic and Venus as well as the "standard three" and even a couple more...

You see, there's this thing called high-volume, low margin versus low volume, high margin. But you know that already. LOL

I have several mesh bodies, though my favorite is Venus. So it's no skin off my nose because I just spend my money at GAS, Blueberry Baii Maii (well, their older stuff that still includes Venus) and so on. Of course, smart creators have a way of knowing which body version of their wares are actually being used after purchase. Otherwise, they're not very good business people (or simply don't care.)

BUT, that's clothing, which is its own major drama-fest. LOL Modify versus no-modify permissions is a simple check-box, no rigging required. That's where there is a LOT of money being left on the table - and I don't mean clothing, but especially in the vehicle's market. Clothing... modifiable... ? I truthfully cannot think of a reason I would care about modifiable clothing because without the UV map to create a new texture properly it's a moot point. Otherwise I can;t think of any other way to modify other than genuinely killing scripts as mentioned before.

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2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Many of the reasons to want modifiable clothing don't involve re-texturing it, or even changing its appearance at all. It's entirely possible to be completely satisfied with how the merchant textured the item but want it to be modifiable to add or subtract scripts, link it to other items, etc.

There's this concern coming from some merchants that a customer will see their unique creation, buy it and immediately swap out their handcrafted texture.

Hmmm...

The bright HMMM signal illuminates the sky. Upon seeing it, one man - The Hmmm Translator - leaps into action! He grabs the text, scans it, picks up his megaphone, and announces to the anxiously-gathering citizens of Gothmmm City the true, hidden meaning that they might have missed behind the words:

"The people who are yelling about this are putting s**tty self-made textures on their stuff, and they know it."

He puts down the megaphone and goes back to bed, muttering, "Jeez, if you people ever decide to just say what you're actually thinking, or that forum's censor ever stops working, then I'm gonna be out of a bloody job!"

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