Why do people support sellers that do no mod?

[Theresa Tennyson]

4 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

The bright HMMM signal illuminates the sky. Upon seeing it, one man - The Hmmm Translator - leaps into action! He grabs the text, scans it, picks up his megaphone, and announces to the anxiously-gathering citizens of Gothmmm City the true, hidden meaning that they might have missed behind the words:

"The people who are yelling about this are putting s**tty self-made textures on their stuff, and they know it."

He puts down the megaphone and goes back to bed, muttering, "Jeez, if you people ever decide to just say what you're actually thinking, or that forum's censor ever stops working, then I'm gonna be out of a bloody job!"

I did not say that.

I didn't even use scare quotes around any of the words I used.

[Pamela Galli]

I once visited a customer who had colored her copy of my Italian villa dark purple and black. I was a little puzzled, since the textures are at least half the value, but it didn’t bother me.  But I can see why some creators don’t like their name on monstrosities. In any case I really could not care less what perms anyone puts on anything, any more than I care what my neighbor is having for dinner. 

 

ETA Isn’t it interesting every time we have this argument over perms, how many different ways we can find to repeat ourselves? 🤓

Edited March 27, 2019 by Pamela Galli

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I might value the integrity of your artistic vision more if it were something I was framing and hanging on my wall. But for objects of personal adornment, my house, my furniture . . . well, not so much.

I will frame and evelop you with my landscape and hang you on a fairy park bench is what I'll do  ;0
But seriously, I mostly do full, themed landscapes -- entire custom regions or skyboxes that take up an entire sim (smaller sizes too as prefabs) -- and they are fully modifiable and copyable so people can customize to fit their particular needs.
They are however, 3D landscape paintings and I pay close attention to every element that one should pay attention to when making a RL flat, non-3D landscape painting. Some people modify these and make something beautiful, while others create complete disasters.

I actually enjoy seeing what people come up with sometimes, or how they utilize them in role play, business, or as a personal living space. Most likely I would not sell much if I didn't make them mod as people do live in them and want to rearrange at least a bit...scoot over my plants for a house at the very least, for example.
So seeing how people use them, and being able to sell them...these are the 2 reasons I make almost everything mod.
But there are some items...items where I learned a lot or for some reason just find the harmony between form and texture beautiful...that I never want to see changed...those I do not make mod. They do sell as well, and I really don't care if they don't sell as much as they would should I make them mod.

I just like nature -- don't really like houses or home elements. I totally get your perspective though, and I'd feel the same about my house if I had one. Actually, there are elements on the MP I'd love to be full perm, as I sometimes use other people's creations in skyboxes or regions I design. I can remember lusting over a couple items (SOMEBODY PLEEASE GIVE ME A FULL PERM JOSHUA TREE FOR MY NEW DESERT SKYBOX)......but would I ever call the creator "selfish" or accuse them of "crippling me", or saying they are "scum", or that their "silly little artiste visions are petty and undeserved"....all because they didn't give me the perms I wanted???  That would never enter my mind.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Luna Bliss

[Skell Dagger]

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

I did not say that.

I didn't even use scare quotes around any of the words I used.

No, you didn't actually say those words. But you heavily implied them.

When someone makes a statement about what others are doing or saying and finishes their statement with "Hmmm..." it implies that they are pondering something fishy about those others' actions and words; that there is something else behind them. When that statement also includes the subtly-sarcastic use of phrases such as "their unique creation" and "their handcrafted texture" then scare quotes are not necessary.

[Qie Niangao]

 

2 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

ETA Isn’t it interesting every time we have this argument over perms, how many different ways we can find to repeat ourselves? 🤓

If we keep trying, despite ourselves, we might actually learn something.

It occurs to me that some of the disputation here is a "clash of cultures" between "coders" and "artistes". Those of us who are steeped in the hacker culture will naturally value how widely our creations can be reused for purposes we could never envision ourselves. Those who see their creations as singular works of art will want to make sure they're appreciated with as much aesthetic fidelity as possible to the original intended expression.

Well, and then there are the folks from the MBA culture who are cranking out content to maximize profits. They'd really rather we not talk about such things and just get on with commerce.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Qie Niangao

[Pamela Galli]

14 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

 

If we keep trying, despite ourselves, we might actually learn something.

It occurs to me that some of the disputation here is a "clash of cultures" between "coders" and "artistes". Those of us who are steeped in the hacker culture will naturally value how widely our creations can be reused for purposes we could never envision ourselves. Those who see their creations as singular works of art will want to make sure they're appreciated with as much aesthetic fidelity as possible to the original intended expression.

Well, and then there are the folks from the MBA culture who are cranking out content to maximize profits. They'd really rather we not talk about such things and just get on with commerce.

The two groups I find most relevant are those who have an opinion about what perms every merchant should use, and those who don’t. 

[Da5id Weatherwax]

I make stuff, I script stuff, I texture stuff. Mostly for me. For example, the guitars I made aren't "for sale" they are exact copies of my RL guitars (even to the slight damage on the headstock of one of them thanks to an inept baggage handler) for me to use on stage in SL. I also buy stuff. Some things, I don't give a rip whether it's mod perm or not. A piece of clothing that fits right and looks how I want, well, that I'm usually going to neither need nor want to mod it. I would love to make my own clothes as well as purchasing them but getting hold of the dev kits for the bodies I wear is, shall we say, a bit of a challenge so it's way less hassle to find something "good enough" on the market. Clothing that's heavily scripted I'd prefer to be able to mod. Other stuff that is attached as part of my avatar I definitely DO want the option to mod. One of the bodies I use has a tat layer that I will never apply anything to so to me it's useless geometry. I delinked it and got rid of it on the copy I wear day-to-day. If I couldn't have done that, I wouldn't have bought that body. I haven't done - and wouldn't do - a thing to the creators artistic vision, just permanently disabled a feature that I will never use. Nobody will see the difference, except perhaps in their framerates. "Props" etc, I'm hugely biased towards mod perm but it's not necessarily a deal breaker if I can't tinker with it. Likewise buildings and furniture.

But I'm not a "typical SL consumer" in any sense of the word. (If such a thing even exists) I know what I want from products and buy accordingly, each decision made on its own merits. Other folks have different criteria. If they are a particular creator's target market and I'm not, that's fine by me. There are enough creators out there that make good products that fit my criteria to keep me happy. Just as there are enough customers out there for creators with a different philosophy to suit them too.

[Ample Clarity]

I sell no mod furniture and here's why:

I enjoy the challenge of seeing how far I can take a mesh to 1LI so my furniture is typically 1.49LI. Therefore, if you resize it larger, LI shoots up exponentially.

Adding animations, changing the menus, adding props, adding a rezzer, adding security, and creating sequences (even if they are not your scripts) takes too much time for the average person. It takes too much time even for the creator. Most SL users don't have the knowledge or expertise to do so. Why not create a product from the start that anticipates the customer's wants, needs and desires? That is what I do.

Dozens if not hundreds of texture options? ✓

Tint, full bright, shine adjustments in the menu? ✓

Hundreds or even thousands of animations? ✓✓✓

Other issues when you sell modifiable furniture: 
-link it to another object and you are no longer seen as the creator
-if they apply an ugly texture to it, now the object no longer looks the way you designed it. My textures are all baked using PBR shaders in professional 3D programs. Each texture is 100% custom and the shading is baked in.
-they link or unlink it and break it. 
-link it, LI goes up.
-rename it and they no longer see the name of the object which you created.
-resize it, LI goes up, rezzed props are no longer in their proper positions, animations invariably lose their adjustment. In other words, no pose system in SL dynamically adjusts to resizing furniture.

I will lose customers by selling no mod but I am perfectly fine with that. I am an artist and I have imagined my art to look a certain way. SL has given me the ability to express it in a way that allows me to prevent others from altering my art. There's no one size fits all approach. There's so much amazing content out there that's mod, full perm, downloadable .dae meshes, you name it. It's a beautiful thing!

Edited April 4, 2019 by Ample Clarity

[Resi Pfeffer]

1 hour ago, Ample Clarity said:

Dozens if not hundreds of texture options? ✓

Tint, full bright, shine adjustments in the menu? ✓

Hundreds or even thousands of animations? ✓✓✓

Thats what makes the difference. Quality and a detailed menu.
I usually dont buy no mod, but i bought your "basket" because i dont need to mod anything in this case. Its perfect for me the way it is.

[Qie Niangao]

3 hours ago, Ample Clarity said:

-resize it, LI goes up, rezzed props are no longer in their proper positions, animations invariably lose their adjustment. In other words, no pose system in SL dynamically adjusts to resizing furniture.

That's true, and it's kind of hopeless for a pose system to do better without incorporating what amounts to a model of how the animation moves the avatar and of the geometry of the space in which it moves. A furniture maker could supply the latter, but the former is a pretty deep limitation in what information about an animation is exposed to the server and thereby to scripts.

That said, though: you sell no-mod furniture? So... if I want to customize a pose position and rotation suited to my particular avatar and save it persistently... in normal furniture I could just burn a new notecard. How does that work if the user can't edit the object's contents? I could imagine that theoretically every avatar's individual custom pose data for every instance of every item could be saved to an external server, but... yipes. Am I missing something?

[Da5id Weatherwax]

3 hours ago, Ample Clarity said:

I sell no mod furniture and here's why:

<SNIPPAGE>

I think, Ample, your reasons for selling furniture no-mod are all good ones. They are the reason that a lot of the "equipment" I used to sell was also no-mod, particularly the technical ones about resizing, linking, retexturing.

These days I probably wouldn't sell as much of my stuff no-mod, even with those concerns. Part of it is that I've decided that when I get back into the market I'd much rather sell everything with copy perms. So if they break it messing with it they can trash the pieces and start over. In fact the business of copy perm is what it boils down to for me as a former, and potentially future, seller. If I'm going to sell something no-copy, and my customer can't unpack a fresh one in the event of "SL happens" then I probably should sell it no-mod so a product they can't replace can't be inadvertantly broken. Copy perm, however, let 'em use it however they want which means mod perms. If in the process they break it, well, there's a fresh one right there in their inventory and maybe they will find a use for or learn something from the pieces of the busted one.

Not saying this is how YOU should think, of course - just saying where I got to from where you currently are

[Blush Bravin]

15 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

That said, though: you sell no-mod furniture? So... if I want to customize a pose position and rotation suited to my particular avatar and save it persistently... in normal furniture I could just burn a new notecard. How does that work if the user can't edit the object's contents? I could imagine that theoretically every avatar's individual custom pose data for every instance of every item could be saved to an external server, but... yipes. Am I missing something?

I can't think of a single piece of furniture I own that does not have an adjust feature in the menu for selecting animations. That adjust feature has both rotation and position so I can easily adjust the animations to fit my avatar and then save the personal setting. I will not buy a piece of furniture that does not have that adjust ability. Also, it's rare that I will buy any furniture that is no mod but it does happen from time to time if the furniture is so well made that it fulfills all my needs without having to mod the item.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

I want to be able to take the bloody scripts out.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

23 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

That's true, and it's kind of hopeless for a pose system to do better without incorporating what amounts to a model of how the animation moves the avatar and of the geometry of the space in which it moves. A furniture maker could supply the latter, but the former is a pretty deep limitation in what information about an animation is exposed to the server and thereby to scripts.

That said, though: you sell no-mod furniture? So... if I want to customize a pose position and rotation suited to my particular avatar and save it persistently... in normal furniture I could just burn a new notecard. How does that work if the user can't edit the object's contents? I could imagine that theoretically every avatar's individual custom pose data for every instance of every item could be saved to an external server, but... yipes. Am I missing something?

With a little ingenuity and script-fu that's workable around, but the designer would have to plan for it and you'd need to get a little crazy - like have one tiny part of the combined whole rez the rest and then propagate the config. You could then have this tiny trivial part be mod perm but what it rezzed not be.

[Qie Niangao]

34 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

With a little ingenuity and script-fu that's workable around, but the designer would have to plan for it and you'd need to get a little crazy - like have one tiny part of the combined whole rez the rest and then propagate the config. You could then have this tiny trivial part be mod perm but what it rezzed not be.

Kind of a hyper-local version of an external server, I guess. One could also squirrel-away a few settings in the object's usual hiding places for persistent data -- although those of us who've been around a while can remember times when the Lab broke stuff when they limited size or content of at least a couple such places, so that wouldn't be best practices at this point.

To be fair, with a no-mod product, there'd be no way for the customer to reset the scripts anyway, so "persistence" within script variables is probably good enough for what must be, ultimately, disposable furniture. (There may be scripted provisions for resetting other scripts, perhaps, but that would be fraught with another whole level of vulnerabilities.)

It all seems the long way 'round the barn just to avoid letting folks mod the product.

[Ample Clarity]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

So... if I want to customize a pose position and rotation suited to my particular avatar and save it persistently... in normal furniture I could just burn a new notecard. How does that work if the user can't edit the object's contents? I could imagine that theoretically every avatar's individual custom pose data for every instance of every item could be saved to an external server, but... yipes. Am I missing something?

You can adjust the rotation and location of your poses through the menu and save those settings without having to save it to a notecard. Custom pose data is saved in a script.  However, the data for my pose system is actually saved on my RL server so I can go beyond the script memory limits in second life. In other words, my pose system doesn't use notecards. AVsitter is limited to around 150 animations per sitter. By storing the pose data in an external database, I can have unlimited animations (unlimited textures, menus, etc). I can also make changes to menus, textures, animations instantly through my server without having to send a 'physical' update. 

1 hour ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

Part of it is that I've decided that when I get back into the market I'd much rather sell everything with copy perms.

Everything I Sell is available in copy or no copy permissions. If the 'no copy' customer loses the furniture, I take a couple of minutes to help them recover the object. 50% of the time they find it (along with lots of other items they were missing from other creators!). If they can't find it, I send them a replacement. It's basically no copy with insurance.

[Fionalein]

I like to add tail animations to my sits... mod stuff lets me do that with avsitter plugins - I recently decided I'm to lazy to click a fitting sit anim from my tail AO every time.

[WingalingDragon]

On 3/27/2019 at 5:59 PM, Skell Dagger said:

No, you didn't actually say those words. But you heavily implied them.

When someone makes a statement about what others are doing or saying and finishes their statement with "Hmmm..." it implies that they are pondering something fishy about those others' actions and words; that there is something else behind them. When that statement also includes the subtly-sarcastic use of phrases such as "their unique creation" and "their handcrafted texture" then scare quotes are not necessary.

I think we'd all be better off here if we didn't assume what others were implying   That's caused plenty of argument so far, and is the cause behind a bunch of the posts that many are finding to be repeated sides of overdone arguments. 

 

2 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

I can't think of a single piece of furniture I own that does not have an adjust feature in the menu for selecting animations. That adjust feature has both rotation and position so I can easily adjust the animations to fit my avatar and then save the personal setting. I will not buy a piece of furniture that does not have that adjust ability. Also, it's rare that I will buy any furniture that is no mod but it does happen from time to time if the furniture is so well made that it fulfills all my needs without having to mod the item.

 

Those menus are nice for sure, and thankfully common, but adjusting poses is only one of the many reasons no-mod furniture is problematic.  Biggest example for me that I don't think too many know about:  In my home plot we use a scene rezzer to switch between multiple scenes without needing to replace everything every time we want to go back to a previous one(suuuuper handy!).  Using this is basically mandatory because we don't own an entire sim or even close, so this is the only way we can keep creating within our prim/size limits without essentially deleting our previous creations.  The thing is, you need to put a script inside an object in order for the rezzer to be able to pick it up and replace it where it needs to be, and you can't do that with a no-mod furniture item. 

 

 

 

Overall, the purpose of this topic was fulfilled, at least a bit, so thank you guys   I learned a few understandable and reasonable causes for no-mod items, and I learned that others are so set in their no-mod ways that they actually get insulted when someone asks about it, yikes!  Hopefully the many people here who have put the thought out there that they are much more likely to buy modify items(as well as listing some good examples of why it's important) is enough to encourage some sellers at least, as the base concept of making your product desirable to more people is rather simple, especially when it doesn't actually require extra effort to widen your audience.  Those sellers who view their creations as art that should not be modified and should be displayed as they personally wanted it to be, respectfully I think you may be in the wrong place for that(as far as profit is concerned).  Apart from rare occasions, generally artists who only pursue their own visions and do not do any form of commissioned work are not making lots of money doing so.   There's nothing wrong with that, don't get me wrong, but you have to understand that the artist who is willing to create for the masses instead of themselves is simply going to have a significantly larger potential to profit.  I'm not saying that's selfish either to create for yourself, I know I couldn't put that much time and effort into something that I wasn't personally interested in, but some can, and since they can reach a much wider range of tastes, they're going to have more potential customers.  The same goes for no-mod. 

Sorry to those who think this thread is just a re-hash!   I'm glad it got some attention and thought though, and even more glad that there are some informative and reasonable posts here to explain a bit on each side of the issue. Thanks to everyone who provided those, and thanks as well to everyone who didn't come in here with hostility, no matter what you posted

Edited April 4, 2019 by WingalingDragon

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, WingalingDragon said:

I think we'd all be better off here if we didn't assume what others were implying   That's caused plenty of argument so far, and is the cause behind a bunch of the posts that many are finding to be repeated sides of overdone arguments. 

I assume you’re implying that our arguments are not valid!

[Ample Clarity]

5 minutes ago, WingalingDragon said:

Biggest example for me that I don't think too many know about:  In my home plot we use a scene rezzer to switch between multiple scenes without needing to replace everything every time we want to go back to a previous one(suuuuper handy!).

Most no mod furniture creators--myself included--will gladly drop the rezzer scripts in for you. We do this all the time.

[Selene Gregoire]

7 hours ago, Ample Clarity said:

Other issues when you sell modifiable furniture: 
-link it to another object and you are no longer seen as the creator
-if they apply an ugly texture to it, now the object no longer looks the way you designed it. My textures are all baked using PBR shaders in professional 3D programs. Each texture is 100% custom and the shading is baked in.
-they link or unlink it and break it. 
-link it, LI goes up.
-rename it and they no longer see the name of the object which you created.
-resize it, LI goes up, rezzed props are no longer in their proper positions, animations invariably lose their adjustment. In other words, no pose system in SL dynamically adjusts to resizing furniture.

All of which is on the customer, not the creator. Having to deal with people who don't know what they are doing is part of owning a retail business in SL and RL.

One of the completely unneccesary and LI increasing things done by furniture creators that I am constantly having to remove to reduce LI are freaking shadows. Some pieces even have two shadows, one floor, one wall for an additional 1-2 LI. That adds up pretty darn quick. Especially when the prim allowance is low. I had to move recently because 40 prims just was not enough and 75 really isn't either. At least I can use the items I've purchased because they were mod and I was able to remove the shadows. Those items that are no mod aren't being used, which is no skin off the creator's nose since they already got their money. They aren't the ones left holding the bag.

 

[Blush Bravin]

8 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

They aren't the ones left holding the bag.

You bought the bag knowing it was no mod. That's not the creator's fault.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Blush Bravin

[Blush Bravin]

6 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I am constantly having to remove to reduce LI are freaking shadows.

Funny, I actually find myself adding shadows to some furniture that do not have them. I also use shadows in my viewer. Guess I'm a shadow lover!

[Selene Gregoire]

3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

You bought the bag knowing it was no mod. That's not the creator's fault.

Not always. There have been times when I bought something that was supposed to be mod but was no mod. Like the curtains I bought just a day or two ago.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/EV-CURTAINS-LIGHTS/10604323

[Blush Bravin]

3 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Not always. There have been times when I bought something that was supposed to be mod but was no mod. Like the curtains I bought just a day or two ago.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/EV-CURTAINS-LIGHTS/10604323

That's beside the issue. Your issue is with a particular item that is either advertised incorrectly or the perms were set wrong and you should have recourse with the seller. That's not what we're talking about in this thread. I hope you have contacted the merchant and get satisfaction.