Downturn in the SL Economy?

[Love Zhaoying]

10 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

The answer is of course NEW PEOPLE.  :D.  

Need new people to keep making Soylent Green.

[Sassy Kenin]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Need new people to keep making Soylent Green.

 

[Chic Aeon]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Need new people to keep making Soylent Green.

Oh no!!!!!!!!

LOL.

[Qie Niangao]

8 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

I haven't been buying much in the way of tattoos or skin effects because they just won't work with our current onion layer system. 

I wonder how many people even realize how ugly stuff gets. Do makeup creators, for example, never enable Advanced Lighting Model, so they don't see their products under projected lights? Or maybe they still have attached lights enabled and wear six facelights at all times?

Or hmm, maybe users avoid ALM because it makes them hideous when wearing makeup, tattoos, or anything else with blended alpha.

[Tarani Tempest]

23 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I wonder how many people even realize how ugly stuff gets. Do makeup creators, for example, never enable Advanced Lighting Model, so they don't see their products under projected lights? Or maybe they still have attached lights enabled and wear six facelights at all times?

Or hmm, maybe users avoid ALM because it makes them hideous when wearing makeup, tattoos, or anything else with blended alpha.

First off, Blush is referring to our current issue when trying to layer textures using the onion layer system, that mesh bodies use.  That is...that we run into the annoying alpha sorting problem. ALM had nothing to do with her comment.

I always have ALM on.  I make cosmetics for mesh heads.  It doesn't make them look hideous.  I spend most of my time in SL working with textures and onion layers...hours of looking at them.  Now, things can look wonky depending on what sort of windlight one might use.....but really, a mesh head can look dreadful w/out make-up under some windlighting and in some daytime lighting.  Actually, basic system avatars look just as dreadful under those circumstances. And that can happen with or with out ALM.

So, I am not sure how you got to the idea that ALM makes anything with blended alphas look hideous.  I am sincerely surprised by that. As that is definitely not my experience.

[Qie Niangao]

It's a function of colored projected lights, which is why it only appears with ALM. The effect is very dramatic, and cannot be fixed while achieving acceptable rendering speed -- similar in that way to alpha-sorting, I guess, but a completely different problem visually. I made a whole thread about it at one point in one of the technical forums, I'll see if I can dredge it up and edit-in a link. (As I recall, Whirly recognized it immediately of course, which is why I sorta assumed everybody knew about it.)

ETA: Ah, here we go. It was actually Lexbot, not Whirly, who recognized the problem and pointed me to the relevant jira.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Qie Niangao

[Klytyna]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Or hmm, maybe users avoid ALM because it makes them hideous when wearing makeup, tattoos, or anything else with blended alpha.

Do you pay any attention to what actually happens in SL, at all ?

Your claim that ALM makes anything using alpha blend ugly can only be described as...

"Clueless Tech-Illiterate Olympic Gold Medal Standard Rubbish"

[Callum Meriman]

Nipplez!! \o/

[Tarani Tempest]

30 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

It's a function of colored projected lights, which is why it only appears with ALM. The effect is very dramatic, and cannot be fixed while achieving acceptable rendering speed -- similar in that way to alpha-sorting, I guess, but a completely different problem visually. I made a whole thread about it at one point in one of the technical forums, I'll see if I can dredge it up and edit-in a link. (As I recall, Whirly recognized it immediately of course, which is why I sorta assumed everybody knew about it.)

ETA: Ah, here we go. It was actually Lexbot, not Whirly, who recognized the problem and pointed me to the relevant jira.

What you have pointed to here, seems to be some sort of ...bug?  I can see that is does in fact exist and some have run into it.  Bugs do exist through out SL, through out many games. And much smarter people than I are working to figure out how to fix them.

But, as someone who uses ALM ....I have yet to encounter it.  It may exist, but it does not seem to be a problem for me at this point.  The fact does remain, that I and others do have ALM enabled and don't have any problems viewing alpha blended textures.

There thousands of Flickr pics by many many SL  bloggers, designers and hobbyists that show a zillion examples of ALM in use, while wearing appliers aplenty.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Tarani Tempest

[Callum Meriman]

Just now, Tarani Tempest said:

But, as someone who uses ALM ....I have yet to encounter it.  It may exist, but it does not seem to be a problem for me at this point.  The fact does remain, that I and others do have ALM enabled and don't have any problems viewing alpha blended textures.

Mostly it only happens with projected lights, and it's very easy to demonstrate it. Neck faders show it most noticably as a very dark line.

It's a bug that isn't fixable, and it's pretty ugly. Careful lighting design helps somewhat, and as a person who does a lot of dance events, that is something I always try to take care of.

[Theresa Tennyson]

6 minutes ago, Tarani Tempest said:

What you have pointed to here, seems to be some sort of ...bug?  I can see that is does in fact exist and some have run into it.  Bugs do exist through out SL, through out many games. And much smarter people than I are working to figure out how to fix them.

But, as someone who uses ALM ....I have yet to encounter it.  It may exist, but it does not seem to be a problem for me at this point.  The fact does remain, that I and others do have ALM enabled and don't have any problems viewing alpha blended textures.

There thousands of Flickr pics by many many SL  bloggers, designers and hobbyists that show a zillion examples of ALM in use, while wearing appliers aplenty.

The problem is that with projectors an alpha blended texture will be rendered differently than the same texture that doesn't use alpha blending. It won't be as  noticeable with an item that uses only one or the other but with things like hair or neck blenders that mix alpha blending and opacity/alpha masking while trying to maintain the same appearance it can be quite noticeable.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Theresa Tennyson

[Love Zhaoying]

17 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Nipplez!! \o/

Kittenz love nipplez, because mama’s milk! Creepy Bro lion concurs.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Love Zhaoying

[Qie Niangao]

Just now, Tarani Tempest said:

But, as someone who uses ALM ....I have yet to encounter it.

Yes, but if you go to the right clubs (or anywhere with enough projected lights), wearing any creator's blended-alpha makeup, you'll see the effect, and as you can see from that thread, it's glaring.

It's kind of a bug, but it's like the alpha-sorting problem: it's not going away any time soon -- but it will completely disappear when alpha-blended makeup is baked onto the non-alpha surface of a BoM avatar, which is why I thought it germane to BoM as a possible economic stimulus.

I suspect there may be a workaround, but it would be a hideous kludge. If one wore a facelight that emits black from six sources closest to the affected surface, I think it might defeat the non-ALM point lighting of the blended alpha surface. I'm not entirely sure this would work, though, and anyway it could only apply in viewers with attached lighting enabled, which must be a minority at this point.

[Tarani Tempest]

Well, I have definitely learned something new today Thank you all for taking the time to clarify.  It seems it is something happening under specific lighting/circumstances, if I am understanding correctly.

ALM is still very much capable of allowing users to view alpha blended textures as they were intended to be viewed, for the most part. 

So, now I wondering, will BoM ....circumvent this, as it does the problem of alpha sorting?

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

It's kind of a bug

Parsing words..Phil, is that you?

[Theresa Tennyson]

26 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Here you can see an alpha blend materials layer over an alpha blend tattoo layer on a mesh body, viewed under ALM...

It's possible for two alpha-blended layers to appear correct on top of each other.

It's also possible for a series of coin flips to come up "heads" or "tails" in the exact order you need them to. The more flips, though, the less likely that this will happen.

Alpha-blended layers will only play together nicely if the rendering engine has a solid idea of what's in front of what, and with a complicated curved shape like a body or hairstyle it simply can't make that determination quickly and easily. For instance, sometimes (not all the time) you can fix the common glitch-thru of a mesh hairstyle over an alpha-blended wearable if you right-click the hairstyle to make the rendering engine change the order it considers them as, but it doesn't always work and in any event there's  no guarantee anyone else seeing you will see things the same way.

[Qie Niangao]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Parsing words..Phil, is that you?

Phil does have a habit of saying nice things about me. It would be a shame if that were ... reflexive.

[steeljane42]

34 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

It's a function of colored projected lights, which is why it only appears with ALM. The effect is very dramatic, and cannot be fixed while achieving acceptable rendering speed -- similar in that way to alpha-sorting, I guess, but a completely different problem visually. I made a whole thread about it at one point in one of the technical forums, I'll see if I can dredge it up and edit-in a link. (As I recall, Whirly recognized it immediately of course, which is why I sorta assumed everybody knew about it.)

ETA: Ah, here we go. It was actually Lexbot, not Whirly, who recognized the problem and pointed me to the relevant jira.

Ah, that would expain why some of my home projectors caused some of my hair to look as bad as they did. Thankfully hair are mostly mod and changing a few linked parts from being alpha blended to alpha masked fixed it. Sadly it doesn't look too good for everyday usage, but for a static picture it was okay.

 

As for the actual topic. Nope, don't see BoM causing a big boost to SL fashion economy. Not everyone wears a tattoo in general and especially with clothing appliers, like lingerie (which is also better in mesh, if done right). I have yet to encounter an applier issues when it comes to mixing makeup too (and yes, I use ALM 100% of the time). Mesh wise it changes nothing. And the only thing I personally use when it comes to "clothing" appliers won't work with BoM at the start at least, since apparently it doesnt support materials.

And I don't think any mesh head/bodies makers will charge for BoM updates either, in fact one major brand of mesh heads already released a completely free BoM ready update a few weeks ago, so I'm sure others will follow soon enough if they didn't already, I don't exactly follow those other brands too much.

[AyelaNewLife]

Reason #389 why I can't wait for BoM:

[Selene Gregoire]

3 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Reason #389 why I can't wait for BoM:

That looks more like the alpha on the hair is causing that issue. I have noticed this is a problem with some of the mesh hairs I have (the ones that are part mesh, part flex are the worst). Choosing a different hairstyle usually takes care of the problem.

Of course, YMMV.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Selene Gregoire

[Rhonda Huntress]

1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said:

That looks more like the alpha on the hair is causing that issue.

But when the tattoo is baked on, it won't be a problem any more and you can wear any hair you want.

Of course it will still make any shear top you have on completely see through but tattoos will be never be a problem any more

 

[AyelaNewLife]

6 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

That looks more like the alpha on the hair is causing that issue. I have noticed this is a problem with some of the mesh hairs I have (the ones that are part mesh, part flex are the worst). Choosing a different hairstyle usually takes care of the problem.

Of course, YMMV.

Yep. I made the pose and lighting with one hair, realised that the braid was defying gravity, and swapped to this one, missed the overlap issue until after I'd taken the shot. Luckily this was taken on my old land and I'd left all the stands and lighting up, so I can reshoot, but... ugh. Annoying.

[Selene Gregoire]

6 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

But when the tattoo is baked on, it won't be a problem any more and you can wear any hair you want.

Of course it will still make any shear top you have on completely see through but tattoos will be never be a problem any more

 

The problem I was having wasn't with tattoos as I don't wear them in SL. I have them in RL. 

Rather I couldn't help but notice that some of the long hair I use alpha-ed out the mesh clothing I was wearing. I don't think BoM is going to cure that problem. 

Of course, that assumption is based on what little I know about BoM so I may be missing something.

[MoiraKathleen]

23 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I couldn't help but notice that some of the long hair I use alpha-ed out the mesh clothing I was wearing.

Sometimes, if the hair is modifiable, you can carefully change the problem faces from alpha blending to alpha masking (with maybe a 100 cutoff value to start with). Sometimes the hair will still look OK, sometimes not - but you can change it back if you don't like it.

I don't know if BOM will help this or not - I've been trying to follow along with all I see posted about it, but I think it's something that I won't fully understand until I can try it and see it for myself. 

[Selene Gregoire]

1 minute ago, moirakathleen said:

Sometimes, if the hair is modifiable, you can carefully change the problem faces from alpha blending to alpha masking (with maybe a 100 cutoff value to start with). Sometimes the hair will still look OK, sometimes not - but you can change it back if you don't like it.

Yup. Problem is, it's no mod. So that leaves changing hair style. I'm ok with that. After all, the universe isn't perfect.