Easy-to-access optional "Shoulder View Camera" on the default viewer might give new users a better experience, another thread

[lucagrabacr]

I'm aware this has been suggested a few times in the past, and has been done on a 3rd party viewer which is Black Dragon, and can be done on most viewers too through the debug settings. But still, I think there should be an easy-to-access solution for anyone who wants to have this camera preset that they can do with the click of a button (through toolbar button or a setting in preference, for example)

I'm not suggesting changing the default SL camera of course, as most of us are used to it already and I'm sure it's the way it is for good reasons. But it would be neat for both old users who want to swap between camera presets easily and new users who might find this camera preset more preferable. It does increase immersion by quite a lot, and probably much more suitable for people who prefer it to be that way.

I have personally seen new users and people reviewing SL saying how "weird" the default SL camera is, so maybe having this option would be beneficial for everyone. What do you guys think?  

Edit: I think the reason LL hasn't implemented this yet is because many seats' default camera is set for the SL's default camera, which kinda break or changed when the camera preset is changed, but still, if that problem can be overcome (or simply let creators adjust to the new optional preset) it would be a nice addition to the default viewer.

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by lucagrabacr
typo, adding stuff

[Lucia Nightfire]

File a feature request at https://jira.secondlife.com

[Phorumities]

why not just use mouselook for the ultimate immersion experience?

[Fionalein]

honestly I think this would be plain weird. SL's camera does not look off to me. GTA, Tomb raider, Elder scrolls all had a similar camera perspective...

[Janet Voxel]

One of the reasons I use Firestorm instead of Black Dragon is because it doesn’t do 3rd person behind perspective natively. You have to go through a process just to get it like that.

Its a great viewer it’s just super technical.

[Rhonda Huntress]

My camera "default" is alt-click and flying all over the place

I have been re-playing some RPG lately and going between any two always leaves me with the feels the camera is off.  Especially when the view angle's perspective is different.  It just depends on what you are used to and unless it is infuriatingly restrictive it only takes a moment to adjust.

Second Life has me spoiled with its free camera.  That said, if a few different camera positioning alternatives added to the camera control would help some people feel more comfortable then I am all for it.

[Clover Jinx]

Niran is working on infinite camera presets you can set up in Black Dragon.

[Coby Foden]

4 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

I have personally seen new users and people reviewing SL saying how "weird" the default SL camera is, so maybe having this option would be beneficial for everyone. What do you guys think?

Personally I have always considered the SL default camera location to be weird. Years back when I learned that it's possible to change the camera location in DebugSettings I immediately did so. And I have been happy ever since with my setting.

The default camera location is especially weird when you are inside buildings and houses. The perspective it gives is not a nice one to look at.
There really should be quick way to change the default location with few alternative views. It's mystery to me why it hasn't been done even yet.

New users most likely have no idea at all about DebugSettings so they are stuck with the default camera location, until they might learn about the settings later, or perhaps never.

[Callum Meriman]

I'd add another button to the camera floater for a second & better overshoulder, plus reorder them so current default is first and not third.

Mouselook is tricky to exit for a beginner, so I'd add a little chat message saying "roll your mousewheel to exit mouselook" that appears the first 10 times it's pressed.

[Donna Underall]

Wasn't there something like this a while back when Oculus was working with SL?

[animats]

9 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

The default camera location is especially weird when you are inside buildings and houses. The perspective it gives is not a nice one to look at.
There really should be quick way to change the default location with few alternative views. It's mystery to me why it hasn't been done even yet.

Hm. Default camera behavior tries to move the camera to give you a usable view when there's an obstacle. It's not 100% successful, but it's not bad.

Outside a low-ceiling small house. Default camera settings.

Inside. Default settings. Viewer automatically moved the camera position in. Atop the head and looking downward, which is not too great.

Did you want something like this when there's an obstacle blocking the normal view?

That might be an improvement. There are a few problems. If you have an outfit with lots of shoulder stuff, the view will be blocked. Steering from an off-center viewpoint tends to be hard.  Atop the head and looking foward is an option, but you look over people's heads and can't see nearby furniture.

Get too close to the head and you have problems with the "near plane", the closest thing you can see, and see through the back of the head. (This last is a graphics hardware limitation.) If you get really close, it's time to go first person, like mouselook.

The biggest trouble with the current default is that you're looking downward. Walk into a large room with a realistic ceiling height and you can't see across the room. That's arguably a bug. 

[Coby Foden]

6 hours ago, animats said:

Did you want something like this when there's an obstacle blocking the normal view?

What I don't like about the default view is that the camera is way too high looking downwards from there. The result is strange perspective with all vertical lines being tilted, like in your first picture. In the default view the avatar proportions get distorted too, the avatar looks shorter than it actually is.

In RL we don't get that feeling about verticals. Even if the eyes actually would see them tilted, the brain will correct that information "oh no, the verticals are always vertical". So we will perceive the verticals correctly. Looking at 2D display things are different. If verticals are tilted that's how we will perceive them. Just like in photos. We see that something is not right.

Here are examples of the the default view and my preferred alternative view.

View with default camera location


View with lower camera location (my preference, more natural perspective)


I have noticed that with the lower camera location it's more comfortable to move in small rooms than it would be with the default camera location. And naturally the distance from the avatar is easy to adjust with mouse scroll wheel when needed. But in my default view I want to see the whole avatar (what's the point of buying nice clothes if you don't see the whole avatar).

[EnCore Mayne]

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/BEHOLD-Designs-Camera-View-HUD/14975155

[Callum Meriman]

Trouble I find with the camera HUDs is that they block you double mouse walking.

It's much easier to use the debug settings, and double mouse isn't blocked.

[Rolig Loon]

8 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

in my default view I want to see the whole avatar (what's the point of buying nice clothes if you don't see the whole avatar). 

That's why it's hard to agree on what the default should be.  I doubt that we could ever get a consensus about what's "best".  Personally, I don't care about seeing my whole av.  I know what I look like, after all.  I want to see what's in front of me and to a reasonable distance on either side, so I set my own view position about 3m behind me, 1m to the right, and 1m above me.  It's been there for probably 12 years now.  Mouselook is nice at times, but its field of view is too narrow for my liking (and it makes me nauseated if I am moving quickly).  I think the best solution is to just make it fairly easy for each user to set her own preference (as Firestorm does), and stop worrying about the default.

[EnCore Mayne]

9 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

Trouble I find with the camera HUDs is that they block you double mouse walking.

It's much easier to use the debug settings, and double mouse isn't blocked.

not sure if yer referring to my hud, but as far as i've observed you can still use double click to walk on any view my hud provides.

[Callum Meriman]

26 minutes ago, EnCore Mayne said:

not sure if yer referring to my hud, but as far as i've observed you can still use double click to walk on any view my hud provides.

Not double click. Press both buttons at the same time.

All camera huds I have tried block the ability to press both mouse buttons at once, which is the way I prefer to walk.

LMB+RMB = walk

If you try that with a camera hud on you don't walk, instead you get the RMB menu.

I'd love to find one that doesn't block it.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[Paul Hexem]

The default camera view is why we have houses with 25 foot tall walls, and 18 foot tall doorways into living rooms.

[Callum Meriman]

10 minutes ago, Gadget Portal said:

The default camera view is why we have houses with 25 foot tall walls, and 18 foot tall doorways into living rooms.

and 3 meter tall avatars

[EnCore Mayne]

9 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

Not double click. Press both buttons at the same time.

All camera huds I have tried block the ability to press both mouse buttons at once, which is the way I prefer to walk.

LMB+RMB = walk

If you try that with a camera hud on you don't walk, instead you get the RMB menu.

I'd love to find one that doesn't block it.

hmmm, interesting... never knew about this. my hud fails in this usecase too. plenty fun when the debug's focusoffset is tweaked from the default's extreme settings.