Sad that popular places are turning into Experiences with no option to visit without accepting

[Qie Niangao]

7 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I thought Experiences had to be enabled on the land to work?  or can they be created for a set of scripts or objects and activated anywhere it is rezzed?

In the case of AVsitter: it does need to be enabled on each parcel or Estate region where it will be used.

(More complexity than anybody should want to know: That's because the AVsitter Experience is "land scope" but there's also such a thing as "grid scope" Experiences that are available anywhere they haven't been explicitly disabled for the parcel or region. These "grid scope" Experiences are very rare currently but Ebbe says they'll be available for wider use -- at TBD cost to the Experience developer.)

[Gabriele Graves]

25 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

In the case of AVsitter: it does need to be enabled on each parcel or Estate region where it will be used.

(More complexity than anybody should want to know: That's because the AVsitter Experience is "land scope" but there's also such a thing as "grid scope" Experiences that are available anywhere they haven't been explicitly disabled for the parcel or region. These "grid scope" Experiences are very rare currently but Ebbe says they'll be available for wider use -- at TBD cost to the Experience developer.)

I live on mainland where I believe they are turned off?

[Innula Zenovka]

55 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

It is hard to describe how much I would not want to be forced to look at something, no matter how good it looks.  In any real world ride I have ever been on, I have always had the ability to turn my head in any way I choose.

You do with experience perms.   If you're sitting on something and I want you to look in a particular direction I'll use exactly the same LSL calls I'd use if you were sitting on something that's not part of an experience (and they're granted silently anyway when called the regular way if you're sitting on the object that calls them).   In both cases you can reset your camera by camming round, same as you do when you're walking round, and in neither case does the call have any effect if you're manually pulled your camera over to focus on something.

[Gabriele Graves]

6 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

You do with experience perms.   If you're sitting on something and I want you to look in a particular direction I'll use exactly the same LSL calls I'd use if you were sitting on something that's not part of an experience (and they're granted silently anyway when called the regular way if you're sitting on the object that calls them).   In both cases you can reset your camera by camming round, same as you do when you're walking round, and in neither case does the call have any effect if you're manually pulled your camera over to focus on something.

This is the first time that someone has mentioned that you can still move the camera (and presumably exit mouselook as well?) whilst subject to an Experience.  Thank you for explaining that.  I still have a problem with the presumption that I want my camera controlled in the first place though, Experience or not.
 

[Qie Niangao]

24 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I live on mainland where I believe they are turned off?

At the region level, yes, but each Mainland owner gets to decide which land scope Experiences they want to enable on a parcel, and which grid-scope ones they want to disable. (On Estates they can be enabled and disabled at the region level but I think the parcel level can override those region-level settings.)

13 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

 I still have a problem with the presumption that I want my camera controlled in the first place though, Experience or not.

Probably the most common use of the scripted cam is to put it somewhere in "front" of a piece of furniture so it doesn't get buried behind a wall; most folks probably have no idea it's even happening. But there are more conspicuous uses, too. I give away an attachment from long ago that allows someone to share their cam position and focus with somebody else, so the recipient can see exactly what the sender is looking at. At some point I also made a little "cam training" demo of a game to track the sitter's cam and help them learn how to quickly and accurately mouse-zoom and -pan instead of using the newbie cam control window. (That's all from years before anybody thought of Experiences as a possibility.)

[Gabriele Graves]

8 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

At the region level, yes, but each Mainland owner gets to decide which land scope Experiences they want to enable on a parcel, and which grid-scope ones they want to disable. (On Estates they can be enabled and disabled at the region level but I think the parcel level can override those region-level settings.)

I'll have to check this out when I next log in?

[Selene Gregoire]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Well, a simple and easy example is the basic funhouse ride. Mouselook is required to enjoy it properly, often. But for other rides, moving your camera for you helps you not miss the thing!

And then there are those of us who can't use mouselook due to TBI. It used to freak people out when I would win at jousting because I can't use mouselook and didn't. They'd all insist that mouselook was a must in jousting. I proved them wrong. 

[Klytyna]

17 hours ago, KT Kingsley said:

Yet another piece of script functionality I seem to have missed out on. I'd love to know how it's done.

Attaching objects temporarily to avatars without Experiences works EXACTLY the same way as with, except for asking permission...

llAttachToAvatarTemp()

It's not a particularly good script command, it's a WEAR (rlv @attach) as opposed to an ADD (rlv @attachover), and generally FAILS if there is anything already attached to the target attachment point.

16 hours ago, KT Kingsley said:

Just tried that. It's temporarily attaching an RLV scripted object (using the experience permissions) which does the Windlight changes and which then detaches itself.

And THAT is the sort of thing that has had me say publicly that combining Experiences with RLV is an abomination, that should be punishable by a mandatory perma-ban from SL...

Somebody chooses to use an RLV enabled viewer, but doesn't walk around with a public access relay... Then some griefer-clown parcel owner abuses the Experience system to attach a full auto no safeword relay to you with the Experience you accepted "just for the teleport portals" to every avatar that the script reports as "female" , and that relay then sends you a bunch of "cripple your avatar" rlv commands (no tp out of the hellhole, no im's, no inventory access, windlight blindness, strips your clothing and mesh body/head, etc.), and then sends a folder for a non temp rlv attachment that if you use FS and set it up a certain way is automatically accepted, then attaches that folder, and hey presto, you are wearing some rlv griefer bastard crap enslavement device that requires a double relog to get you back to normal and away from that place...

And of course when this comes out in conversations between victims and their friends, casual strangers seeking advice etc., it will be RLV that gets the blame for Experience Abuse...

And all this because some "Master" who once tried an rlv forced mouselook for 60 seconds and found it "wonderfully immersive and certain to enhance a subbby rlv ho who cant say no's life when permanent" decided to abuse Experiences AND RLV on his "Friendly BDSM Hangout Sim - Noobs Welcome"...

...

Immersiveness is not a valid justification for what is essentially LEGAL Sim Owner level griefing...

 

[Whirly Fizzle]

25 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

And THAT is the sort of thing that has had me say publicly that combining Experiences with RLV is an abomination, that should be punishable by a mandatory perma-ban from SL...

Somebody chooses to use an RLV enabled viewer, but doesn't walk around with a public access relay... Then some griefer-clown parcel owner abuses the Experience system to attach a full auto no safeword relay to you with the Experience you accepted "just for the teleport portals" to every avatar that the script reports as "female" , and that relay then sends you a bunch of "cripple your avatar" rlv commands (no tp out of the hellhole, no im's, no inventory access, windlight blindness, strips your clothing and mesh body/head, etc.), and then sends a folder for a non temp rlv attachment that if you use FS and set it up a certain way is automatically accepted, then attaches that folder, and hey presto, you are wearing some rlv griefer bastard crap enslavement device that requires a double relog to get you back to normal and away from that place...

And of course when this comes out in conversations between victims and their friends, casual strangers seeking advice etc., it will be RLV that gets the blame for Experience Abuse...

And all this because some "Master" who once tried an rlv forced mouselook for 60 seconds and found it "wonderfully immersive and certain to enhance a subbby rlv ho who cant say no's life when permanent" decided to abuse Experiences AND RLV on his "Friendly BDSM Hangout Sim - Noobs Welcome"...

...

Immersiveness is not a valid justification for what is essentially LEGAL Sim Owner level griefing...

Remember in cases like this, you can abuse report the experience & it's likely LL will block that experience & possibly slap the experience owner.

Having said that, it is a concern.
That's why Firestorm added some changes in the latest release:

NEW Stop Experiences having limitless access to RLVa by default

• Added 'RLVaExperienceMaturityThreshold' and 'RLVaBlockedExperiences' debug settings.
• Current default threshold is mature and higher
• AVsitter is a compromised experience and blocked by default

 

[Kitty Barnett]

6 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

NEW Stop Experiences having limitless access to RLVa by default

• Added 'RLVaExperienceMaturityThreshold' and 'RLVaBlockedExperiences' debug settings.
• Current default threshold is mature and higher
• AVsitter is a compromised experience and blocked by default

 

In addition to that RLVaEnableTemporaryAttachments setting has been around for a long while now precisely to limit the scope to only attachments you choose to wear yourself; which as a side-effect blocks all experiences related things too (since they're all temp prims).

But that's really just intended to remove the surprise/undesired factor of having temp attached prims interacting with your RLV(a) when you know you never want them to. If someone is using an experience to grief, or step out of line, then the experience >creator< is ultimately responsible for how they allow their experience to be used and do abuse report that.

[Innula Zenovka]

 

1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

Somebody chooses to use an RLV enabled viewer, but doesn't walk around with a public access relay... Then some griefer-clown parcel owner abuses the Experience system to attach a full auto no safeword relay to you with the Experience you accepted "just for the teleport portals" to every avatar that the script reports as "female" , and that relay then sends you a bunch of "cripple your avatar" rlv commands (no tp out of the hellhole, no im's, no inventory access, windlight blindness, strips your clothing and mesh body/head, etc.), and then sends a folder for a non temp rlv attachment that if you use FS and set it up a certain way is automatically accepted, then attaches that folder, and hey presto, you are wearing some rlv griefer bastard crap enslavement device that requires a double relog to get you back to normal and away from that place...

Back when experiences were first announced, I had very similar concerns.    However, we've had resident-owned experiences for two or three years at least -- I can't remember when they were introduced -- and I can't remember hearing of anyone actually having that happen to them.  If it were happening at all frequently, I'd expect that sooner or later someone would complain about it here or in some in-world groups or at SLU as was (now virtualverse.one), but if they have, I've not seen it.    Have you?

One of the reasons, I'm sure, that only people with premium accounts may own (as opposed to contribute to) experiences is that this means there's always an actual SL account and account holder whom LL can hold responsible for abuse of the experience.    I couldn't get away with creating throw-away alts to make the kind of items you describe,  since I'd have to make them experience contributors for my experience, so it would still be traceable back to me.   

As I said in a previous post, it would be far safer for any griefer to set something up that looked for people wearing open RLV relays.    However, that doesn't seem to happen particularly frequently, and, for what it's worth, my relay (which isn't open, obviously) very rarely reports pings when I'm not expecting them.    

As Kitty and Whirly have explained, people who choose to use RLV and RLVa can protect themselves against this kind of griefing by using the viewer settings, and if anyone is subjected to griefing by an experience,  all the details are there and available in the viewer records (and presumably available to LL in the simulator's logs), so it's easy for LL to investigate and deal with.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

AVsitter is a compromised experience and blocked by default

Interesting..

[Innula Zenovka]

21 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Interesting..

I would imagine that's because if you own a paid-for copy of AVsitter, it comes with a script compiled to the Avsitter experience that you can use to attach props to people using the furniture.    This is a huge convenience, in that the customer has only to set up AVsitter once to run on the region/parcel and that users have only to accept the experience once, so AVsitter works pretty much out of the box for many people.  

However, it also means that anyone with a paid-for copy of AVsitter can use it to attach anything they like to users, so its ubiquity and convenience also make open to undesirable exploitation by griefers.   

[Klytyna]

12 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

If it were happening at all frequently, I'd expect that sooner or later someone would complain about it here or in some in-world groups or at SLU as was (now virtualverse.one), but if they have, I've not seen it.    Have you?

Firstly, for most of the period when experiences have been around, most people didn't use them much, it was largly confined to that "compromised" experience connected with a popular brand of furniture script...

Secondly, if you check the forums here, you'll find posts by myself, on a thread about somebody who wanted to use experiences to attach exactly that kind of full-auto-no-safeword relay to visitors on arrival so they could be force sat on the rlv furniture...

Thirdly... Somebody I knew made their own rlv furniture item with avsitter, and then added an experience of their own (being an Entitlement Club member) to auto sit anyone who came into contact with the thing...

Problem was the bloody thing had a 4 m x 4 m invisible floor plate,,, So, you walked up a flight of stairs, stepped on the excessive floor plate got experience sat upside down spread like a starfish on the bloody crap, you hit the stand button, and... Landed on the bloody floorplate and got experienced back on again in millisaconds...

The only way to get off the bloody thing was to disable the experience, or, teleport away so you didnt land on the bloody floor plate, or rage quit out of SL...

...

Forum rules forbid me from repeating what I said to the creator when they asked me what I thought of their "kewl rlv toy"...

...

19 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

One of the reasons, I'm sure, that only people with premium accounts may own (as opposed to contribute to) experiences is that this means there's always an actual SL account and account holder whom LL can hold responsible for abuse of the experience.

A typical self important snobby Entitlement Club BS Merchant response...

People who are payment registered and used, without Entitlement Club membership are just as financially traceable, and equally non-disposable.

Assuming that people who join Entitlewment Club are obviously and automatically "nice people who can be trusted with anything" is a gratuitous example of the unlicenced possession of illegal quantities of WEAPONS GRADE STUPIDITY.

But we had this discussion before on another thread about Experience code and why many people dislike it.

24 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

As Kitty and Whirly have explained, people who choose to use RLV and RLVa can protect themselves against this kind of griefing by using the viewer settings

No... They explained that ADVANCED users can tinker with the debug settings, to protect themselves... That's not much comfort to somebody who just uses a viewer without understanding how it works, especially new people who are in fact the kind most likely to fall prey to this crap, because they are NOT suspicious minded b*tches like me who often walk around with invisi-squint turned on to spot 'trap floorplates' and who are wary of accepting experiences from people we don't know about JUST because they payed $72 a year to be a self-entitled arrogant ignorant snob...

2 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

AVsitter is a compromised experience and blocked by default

And this particular experience is widely available to people using avsitter scripts to attach items, without having to be Entitlement Club members, all you need is to drop the precompiled experience enabled avsitter scripts in your home-build furniture, enable the experience on your parcel and you are good to go, to automagically attach whatever to people.

31 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Back when experiences were first announced, I had very similar concerns. 

Yeah but you script rlv furniture on a 'professional' basis, for a store... Finding new evil to do to people is what you do, right? You work/worked for a woman who once told me to my face that land owning Entitlement club members like her could do no wrong because they were obviously "better people"...

*/me shrugs*

Sorry but I find your attempts to justify crap by claiming that Entitlement Club members are automagically trustworthy, offensive.
 

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

42 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Back when experiences were first announced, I had very similar concerns. 

Yeah but you script rlv furniture on a 'professional' basis, for a store... Finding new evil to do to people is what you do, right?

lololololo

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Sorry but I find your attempts to justify crap by claiming that Entitlement Club members are automagically trustworthy, offensive.

 

[Solar Legion]

Oh for ....

Swing and a miss by a mile. Again.

[Klytyna]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

 

Some years back, a survey in the UK found that working class people were TWICE as likely to die of mis-diagnosis then middle class people, because...

They were more likely to nod and say "yes sir thank you sir" when told they just needed to go home and take some asprin and stop whining...

The more self entitled middle classes were more likely to demand a second opinion, and discover they really were ill...

A practical example of the dangers of automatically trusting a group of people simply because of their social class...
 

[Innula Zenovka]

23 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Sorry but I find your attempts to justify crap by claiming that Entitlement Club members are automagically trustworthy, offensive.

I'm sorry but you seem to have gone off on a complete tangent.   

My point about restricting experience ownership to people with premium accounts is not that premium members are particularly trustworthy but that it would be expensive to create throwaway premium alts for griefing purposes and also risky since they could be traced back to the same credit-card/paypal accounts.   

Doubtless there are other ways LL could achieve the same end -- that is, prevent anonymous use of experiences by throwaway alts -- and I hope they'll adopt them.    

Nevertheless, the fact remains that restricting experience ownership to premium account holders is a convenient and effective way for LL to identify experience owners and to stop people using throwaway alts to grief people using experiences.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Innula Zenovka

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

I ran into the experience thing a couple times --- why do we even need them? Things been fine all this time.  It's like RL when you could go into a store to buy your item. Now they do this experience thing with classes, mini-concerts and selfie walls. Ehhh.

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

However, it also means that anyone with a paid-for copy of AVsitter can use it to attach anything they like to users, so its ubiquity and convenience also make open to undesirable exploitation by griefers.   

Just noting that there's stuff attachments can do, and stuff temp attachments cannot, notably llTeleportAgent(). I guess griefers could use the AVsitter Experience to make furniture or fruit bowls that attach a Snidely Whiplash mustache or something, but even the level of virtual inconvenience is constrained to what temp attachments can do.

3 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

• AVsitter is a compromised experience and blocked by default

... where "blocked" here refers (I think) specifically to interaction with RLV/a, not a general "block" of the Experience. I can see how RLV exposes special vulnerability to griefing by rogue use of an Experience. On the other hand, I don't see how anyone with second thoughts about Experiences would ever consider enabling RLV on their viewer.

[Oz Linden]

On 10/18/2018 at 12:55 PM, AyelaNewLife said:

I can work around it by learning where and when the experience triggers a windlight change,

The ability of an Experience to set an environment has not yet been released (soon!), so whatever is happening there is not Experience-based.

[Whirly Fizzle]

3 minutes ago, Oz Linden said:

The ability of an Experience to set an environment has not yet been released (soon!), so whatever is happening there is not Experience-based.

Experience temp attaches a scripted object A.
Attached scripted object A uses RLV/RLVa to change users windlight settings.

Ref:

• http://www.spoodudimo.com/2015/07/using-lsl-scripting-to-dynamically.html
• http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_Protocol/RestrainedLoveAPI#Viewer_Control

 

[Gabriele Graves]

5 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I'm sorry but you seem to have gone off on a complete tangent.   

My point about restricting experience ownership to people with premium accounts is not that premium members are particularly trustworthy but that it would be expensive to create throwaway premium alts for griefing purposes and also risky since they could be traced back to the same credit-card/paypal accounts.   

Doubtless there are other ways LL could achieve the same end -- that is, prevent anonymous use of experiences by throwaway alts -- and I hope they'll adopt them.    

Nevertheless, the fact remains that restricting experience ownership to premium account holders is a convenient and effective way for LL to identify experience owners and to stop people using throwaway alts to grief people using experiences.

I don't disagree with any of that but if you replace "Premium" with "Payment Info on File/Used" then it all remains the same and true.  I think that was the point, it really doesn't have to be Premium though obviously it could be seen that Experiences are a Premium Perk but that would have nothing to do with accountability.
Disclosure: I am a long time Premium member who loves the benefits we get.

[Phorumities]

3 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I don't disagree with any of that but if you replace "Premium" with "Payment Info on File/Used" then it all remains the same and true.  I think that was the point, it really doesn't have to be Premium though obviously it could be seen that Experiences are a Premium Perk but that would have nothing to do with accountability.
Disclosure: I am a long time Premium member who loves the benefits we get.

I must say, I love being premium, but creating an experience is one perk I'll never use.

Perhaps i could swap it for something of equal value, like maybe another 16 sq m of land allowance

Edited October 20, 2018 by Phorumities
fixed a word