Need to know how a person "gets trained" or acquire the "proper training" to model

[Gordon Nadezda]

I've posted before - in other forums on SL - about what a person's supposed to do to gain the knowledge necessary to do 3D modeling in SL. I am far from being a pro. In fact, I'm so far from 'pro' that the light from 'pro' would take 100 years to reach me. I've dabbled in the process of creating mesh for Second Life; none of it's commercial. Until recently, my efforts have been more of a hobby. But, as I've recently retired from a 25-year career in another field, I'd like the 3D modeling for SL to become more than just a hobby, but not quite what one might call a full-fledged career. I hope that makes sense. 

I utilize Blender for modeling and have acquired most of my knowledge of the program by watching YouTube videos. I very quickly realized that most of those videos teach concepts that are inapplicable to game engines like SL. In other words, I am keenly aware of the high- versus low-poly issue; most videos teach high-poly modeling. As we all know, high-poly is not appropriate for most game engines.

I've received some great advice to previous posts and greatly appreciate it. I've also come across a few SL community forum posts from people who seem to imply that the non-pro modelers, who rely on YouTube should just pack it up or acquire the "proper training" or "get trained." And, I'm sure they don't mean it intentionally, but both statements seem elitist. That's especially true since very few people go on to expand on their opinions. 

As I said above, I'm ready to expand my "second career" in 3D modeling for SL - also for Sansar, but that's a whole other thing. I want this to be more than a hobby; although, I don't know that the distinction matters. Other than watch YouTube videos geared toward modeling for game engines, how else is an interested person such as myself supposed to acquire "proper training" or "get trained?" Are there schools or online programs that teach programs to adults who want something that's more than a hobby and just short of a full-fledged career? 

I apologize in advance if this is confusing, but so is the field I'm discussing.

[Anna Nova]

As far as I can tell, the only way to become proficient is to try.  You make something that YOU actually want to make, and you follow up on the issues you discover doing it.  Sometimes a tutorial will help - as I found with High-Poly baking - that has little apparent relevance to SL.  Sometime you just get inundated with wrong leads and come here and ask nicely.

Sometimes you think you have made something really fantastic, and then you realise it's pretty mediocre, but even that teaches you.

What you cannot do is watch a 'how to build an X for SL' video, and expect to be an expert, even in Xs.

Now those who tell you that unless you have done 13 years in Art College, followed by a PhD in 3D graphics, and hold the Chair in Advanced Algorithms at Berkeley, you can't make mesh for SL.  Those that have those,  make the worst stuff, IMO.

Just start.

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by anna2358
typo

[Gordon Nadezda]

4 minutes ago, anna2358 said:

Sometime you just get inundated with wrong leads and come here and ask nicely.

I do feel like I'm often going down the wrong path when it comes to watching tutorials. Almost none of them are 'how to build an X for SL' which makes it frustrating but also a challenge.

7 minutes ago, anna2358 said:

Now those who tell you that unless you have done 13 years in Art College, followed by a PhD in 3D graphics, and hold the Chair in Advanced Algorithms at Berkeley, you can't make mesh for SL.  Those that have those,  make the worst stuff, IMO.

In a Sansar forum, I read a post from a person who basically said that, unless you are a pro with years of formal training in art, 3D graphics, etc., you really have no business creating content. The justification for her statement was "look at what happened to SL." By that she meant, once mesh uploads were allowed on SL by anyone, the amateurs ruined SL with their highly inefficient mesh. In reality, the so-called pros are some of the worst culprits.

13 minutes ago, anna2358 said:

As far as I can tell, the only way to become proficient is to try. 

I am doing that and have identified issues. That's where the tutorials come in. But, many of them seem like they'd apply to my issue, but mostly the tutorials turn into a trip down the wrong path. That gets discouraging. Still, I have found a few Second Life artists who have posted some great tutorials. 

[Chic Aeon]

OK.  ONE MORE PLUG. Seems like the whole world should knows these are out there by now.

Blender tutorials (albeit not terribly advanced) made SPECIFICALLY FOR SL and OS.

This is the playlist at Youtube. They are also available under TUTORIALS  - Tutorial Chic at SLArtist.com

 

 

[Fionalein]

Basically all you need to know is hidden here in the forums... any tutorials will do if you just learn to transfer your gained knowledge to the needs of SL...

[Rolig Loon]

Yes, it can be discouraging and yes, comments from some skilled designers can sound elitist at times.  Unfortunately, both have a foot in reality.  Three-D modeling is not easy, as you have discovered.  It not only requires technical skills with some rather complicated software but also requires artistic talent and a lot of practice.  You can't become an expert in a month.  Most 3D modelers in SL are amateurs, using Blender, which is free and is quite powerful.  You have found Blender tutorials, so you know how frustrating it can be to master even the basics. Unless you can devote large blocks of uninterrupted time for practice and are willing to treat that time as you would treat any RL job or schooling environment, it's unlikely that you will ever become truly proficient.  That's where the professional modelers have the advantage.  They have spent the time in school and in RL jobs.  They also have the experience of having made things for many different settings, usually under extreme time pressure from whoever is paying them, and they are using Maya or some truly high-powered software instead of Blender.

The professionals have their own stumbling blocks, though.  SL is a dynamic environment, updating constantly.  That places severe constraints on how complex their models can be.  Many models uploaded by professional turn out to be L.I. heavy, or to take shortcuts by eliminating low LOD models to keep L.I. and avatar complexity low.  They have to learn to create details with textures instead of extra model vertices.  They also have to learn to create visual effects with SL's limited materials palette rather than the array of maps that they can use elsewhere.  Experience can lead to a certain arrogance, blaming SL for not being like whatever they are already familiar with, and that can be a block to further learning. It can be just as hard for a professional to learn SL's rules as it is for you and me to learn the tricks of basic modeling.

The bottom line is that there is no easy path to being a great designer. You can certainly go to your local community college and take courses in art and computer graphics to give yourself a jump start.  Or you can do as most of us have and simply spend a lot of time making things and learning by trial and error and by looking over the shoulders of more accomplished people.  Either way, you'll make a lot of mistakes and get very frustrated.  Unless you have dreams of earning a living by creating 3D stuff in SL -- not a very realistic dream for most people -- you can learn at your own pace.  Like you, I came to SL after I retired from a 35+ year career doing very different things.  I've learned to treat SL as my hobby or advanced learning space.  I'm primarily a scripter (I acknowledge my mediocre artistic talent and my real ability to write complex computer code, so I spend most of my time scripting), but I am slowly learning to make rather decent mesh objects when I need them.  At my age, I have learned to treat each day as a new puzzle and not to worry about the fact that tomorrow will be even more puzzling. 

[Gordon Nadezda]

30 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

OK.  ONE MORE PLUG. Seems like the whole world should knows these are out there by now.

I knew about your tutorials and they are fantastic. They involve Blender geared toward SL. Imagine that! 

I guess what really set me off today was a couple of comments from a so-called "professional" 3D modeler who implied that the "amateurs" should stay away until they've been properly trained. But, of course, they left out the part about how someone actually becomes "properly" trained. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Gordon Nadezda
correction of grammar

[Fionalein]

4 minutes ago, Gordon Nadezda said:

But, of course, they left out the part about how someone actually becomes "properly" trained. 

Why raise the competition 

Klytyna would call it "entitlement syndrome" they most likely payed for an education in 3D modeling and cannot accept hobby folks given the right mix of determination and artistic talent can step up to them and even outdo them...

[Chic Aeon]

43 minutes ago, Gordon Nadezda said:

I knew about your tutorials and they are fantastic. They involve Blender geared toward SL. Imagine that! 

I guess what really set me off today was a couple of comments from a so-called "professional" 3D modeler who implied that the "amateurs" should stay away until they've been properly trained. But, of course, they left out the part about how someone actually becomes "properly" trained. 

Well, I had a business for MANY years that was very successful and I was actually in the "top tier" of the field. And you know what? I taught myself!

You CAN do that!  It is definitely possible. It just takes time and effort and there are many people here to help. Good luck.

 

 

[Klytyna]

4 hours ago, Gordon Nadezda said:

Other than watch YouTube videos geared toward modeling for game engines, how else is an interested person such as myself supposed to acquire "proper training" or "get trained?"

Realistically, there is and has only ever been ONE way to become a skilled 3D modeler, and that is to... Model things in 3D, a lot, and scream in frustration, and tear your hair out and delete the crap and start again...

There is a tendancy these days for people to say "is there a spewtube video shoing you step by step how to do everything" and the answer will be NO.

4 hours ago, Gordon Nadezda said:

I've also come across a few SL community forum posts from people who seem to imply that the non-pro modelers, who rely on YouTube should just pack it up or acquire the "proper training" or "get trained."

There are "professionals" in the 3D cgi industry, who basically only ever make "brick" boxes, and "gold tinted glass" boxes, to throw together models of the outside of new call center buildings to show clients. It's called Architectural Pre-Viz, and it's where MOST of the graduates from university 3d cgi courses end up.

Contrary to popular belief, most professionals do NOT work for Pixar or ILM, etc., they just make slightly blurred pictures of suburban industrial park call centers.

44 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Klytyna would call it "entitlement syndrome" they most likely payed for an education in 3D modeling and cannot accept hobby folks given the right mix of determination and artistic talent can step up to them and even outdo them...

Hehehe... There's a magazine for 3D Modelers, it's called 3D World, and it's articles, and cover disc featuresare mainly aimed at professionals, and serious hobbyists, and you'd see letters from "pros' complaining at "hobbyist" level content in the magazine, and dissing hobbyists for using "pre made content" for example the Poser users doing figure work.

Ironic part is most of these so called pros, making their own original content, weren't. They bought prefab people and vehicles and buildings from resource companies in Germany for example.

Apparently it's ok to spend $500 of your Boss's money on a digital car to put in the car park of an architectural pre-vis, but not to download a free rapier  & dagger prop set for a render of a 17th century duelist... "Not Professional".

Most of these professionals have degrees in 3D cgi, and at one time nearly all of them used Max.

Every month the back cover of 3D World had an advert for a company that retailed Max "Another image that challenges reality, made in..." the slogan went.

Some were truely excellent, some were... NOT.

I remember one, a picture of a woman's face and upper torso, facing camera, in a stuccoed room with light coming in from the viewers right. The "pro" had used Ambient Occlusion and Image Based Lighting, rather than use raytraced lighting and shadows, because it's about 90% quicker.

The bad fake shadows cast by the chicks spagetti dress straps were CLOSER to the light source than the straps supposedly casting them, some foulup in the uv mapping and texturing of the human figure meant the skin in her cleavage looked more like eithere orange peel or some disfiguring skin complaint, and the background didn't match the lighting at all, it was on the whole, piss poor.

I could never figure out why  a company with access to hundreds of experienced Max users, had selected that particular 'artist' and that particular picture to represent their product.

4 hours ago, Gordon Nadezda said:

As we all know, high-poly is not appropriate for most game engines.

Ah now there's a problem...

See, most "game" models are intended for games, and SL is not a game.

Take clothing, in most games, the clothes and such parts of the body as are visible are a single model, and when you change from one of the games fixed number of outfits to another, it's basically a whole body swap.

By comparison, in apps like Poser ofr Daz Studio, you are dressing a whole human figure in rigged conforming clothing, all high poly, for static renders, or for rendering single frames for animations that will be assembled outside the rendering engine in a video editor.

SL falls in the uncomfortable gap between these two extremes.

4 hours ago, Gordon Nadezda said:

I've dabbled in the process of creating mesh for Second Life; none of it's commercial. Until recently, my efforts have been more of a hobby

What should be the first rule of learning 3D modeling is... Make what you know.

If you spent 25 years as a motorcycle mechanic, then you would be in a much better position to know what the parts of a motorcycle look like, how they fit together, how they are made, etc., than I ever would. One of the best makers of low poly buildings on the CGI market is  a man who's day job is... "Professional Architect".

He made a gun model once, despite admitting he knew nothing about guns, so the bore of the barrel was wider than the magazine, the ejector port wasn't wide enough to eject shall casings for bullets the size of the barrel, etc., it looked a bit of a mess.

Make what you know.
 

[So Whimsy]

Gosh, I came in here, crazy eyed, half dressed and almost sprained my ankle wanting to shout "Don't fall for those model schools! It's a scam! Keep your Linden safe!"

Yeah, I did not read which part of the forum the post was made in until I read the first post.

[Fionalein]

46 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

Yeah, I did not read which part of the forum the post was made in until I read the first post.

Oh I'm part of "that" part of the forum now?

[Drake1 Nightfire]

9 hours ago, Syn Anatine said:

Gosh, I came in here, crazy eyed, half dressed and almost sprained my ankle wanting to shout "Don't fall for those model schools! It's a scam! Keep your Linden safe!"

Yeah, I did not read which part of the forum the post was made in until I read the first post.

I caught what part of the forum it was in right off the bat and wondered why someone asking about SL runway models was posting in the mesh section. 

[Gordon Nadezda]

7 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I caught what part of the forum it was in right off the bat and wondered why someone asking about SL runway models was posting in the mesh section. 

I guess I could have given the post a better title. Honestly, I didn't know there were scams in SL involving runway modeling schools. It wasn't exactly what I hoped to learn, but it's something I didn't know before.

[Gordon Nadezda]

On 5/3/2018 at 4:13 PM, Klytyna said:

What should be the first rule of learning 3D modeling is... Make what you know.

If you spent 25 years as a motorcycle mechanic, then you would be in a much better position to know what the parts of a motorcycle look like, how they fit together, how they are made, etc., than I ever would. One of the best makers of low poly buildings on the CGI market is  a man who's day job is... "Professional Architect".

He made a gun model once, despite admitting he knew nothing about guns, so the bore of the barrel was wider than the magazine, the ejector port wasn't wide enough to eject shall casings for bullets the size of the barrel, etc., it looked a bit of a mess.

Make what you know.

I spent the last 25 years working in Desktop support, so I'm not sure how I'd apply that to modeling what I know. But, I do know what interests me in 3D modeling - houses and their accessories. So, I guess that's a start.

[ChinRey]

7 hours ago, Gordon Nadezda said:

I spent the last 25 years working in Desktop support, so I'm not sure how I'd apply that to modeling what I know.

Much of that experience should be applicable to marketing and that is very important if you want to make money from SL content creation. There are so many content creators and wannabe content creators in SL, getting noticed is probably the most difficult part of it all.

[Gordon Nadezda]

I've been looking at Blender courses on Udemy. I've already taken a couple and found them useful in learning how to use Blender. Of course, there are no courses specific to creating 3D assets for Second Life, but I wondered if courses geared toward Unity would provide skills that translate to Second Life. Any thoughts?

Quote

 

 

[AviNews]

Seems no one has mentioned in-world Builder's Brewery sim. Keep an eye on sim and group, most all is about creation within SL.

Basically tho.... create/model, open in Marketplace and place items for sale... hope you get a HOT one or two...  watch your L$ balance go up, Up, UP and away! Doesn't end there tho... buy some land, open in-world store... start a blog, network/manage Social Media, etc... etc!   That will confirm 'training' efforts.

[Gordon Nadezda]

8 minutes ago, AviNews said:

no one has mentioned in-world Builder's Brewery sim.

I am a member of the Builder's Brewery group and visit the sim often. I've monitored their training calendar, but have yet to see a session involving Blender. Maybe I'm missing something?

[AviNews]

I've seen many classes concerning upload of mesh.. and some in-world mesh creation tools/methods.(file requirements, management, conversions, etc.)  I has also seen other courses, elsewhere in-world (can't remember locations/groups) covering overall management for creations of major builds.... utilizing a 'staff' of builders.. keeping notes... applying perms, etc.

If all training is specifically for modeling/creation for SL only, I'd think the classes would be of interest.  

[Gordon Nadezda]

Let me clarify about Builder's Brewery. I think the organization is fantastic and I've taken several classes through them. I've taken a couple on using Mesh Studio and loved it. Builder's Brewery is a wonderful resource and I think classes on using Blender for the creation of 3D assets specifically for SL would be fantastic. 

After countless hours of video training and a lot of trial and error, I finally have a basic understanding of how to use Blender. I've created lots of projects using my knowledge. The only real way to learn is to do. Now, I'm trying to focus my training on what works for creating 3D assets for Second Life. The closest types of courses on Udemy that utilize Blender target creation for Unity. 

[Chic Aeon]

2 hours ago, Gordon Nadezda said:

Let me clarify about Builder's Brewery. I think the organization is fantastic and I've taken several classes through them. I've taken a couple on using Mesh Studio and loved it. Builder's Brewery is a wonderful resource and I think classes on using Blender for the creation of 3D assets specifically for SL would be fantastic. 

After countless hours of video training and a lot of trial and error, I finally have a basic understanding of how to use Blender. I've created lots of projects using my knowledge. The only real way to learn is to do. Now, I'm trying to focus my training on what works for creating 3D assets for Second Life. The closest types of courses on Udemy that utilize Blender target creation for Unity. 

Note that ChinRey is offering classes / mentoring this summer. 

 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

To be fair once you understand the basics the key is to practice practice practice.

However...

Another important element is peer review and studying prior art.

Not just comparing yourself to any artists out there, because there are many specialisations in 3D modeling. People who do digital sculpting for example are not judged on the same aspects as people doing CAD design, who themselves are not judged the same way as people who make models for the movie/animation industry.

When it comes to becoming better at producing 3D models for SL, we are talking about "game grade" models. So that's what you have to compare your work to.

Study 3D models that are used in actual, released video games, go on https://www.models-resource.com/ and pick your favourite game there, study how they build models how they arrange their UV maps, how they make joints for animation.

Study http://wiki.polycount.com! While the forum itself has become a CGI artist showreel, the wiki still contains a lot of valuable informations.

The second part is much harder, especially ego wise, find other people in SL who do 3D modeling, show them your work, hell if you trust them enough, send them your blend files and ask them for a honest opinion, ask them how they would have done it, what they would have done differently, what they think of your technique. And then listen to what they have to say, and even if it hurts, don't get mad.

Thank them, and offer them the same honest criticism. If they have nothing bad to say about your work, then find someone who does, perfection doesn't exist.

3D modeling is a lot of hours of self teaching and self improvement, but it can't just happen inside a vacuum, or you risk surrounding yourself into a protective wall. And when you do, you stop progressing.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Kyrah Abattoir

[OptimoMaximo]

I will add my 2 cents:

To get "proper training", what you need is time and your software manual. This latter will help you understand the topics better and at your own pace, while reducing the amount of time needed to learn. However, i have to also quote Rolig Loon in her post above:

On 3/5/2018 at 9:35 PM, Rolig Loon said:

The professionals have their own stumbling blocks, though.  SL is a dynamic environment, updating constantly.  That places severe constraints on how complex their models can be.  Many models uploaded by professional turn out to be L.I. heavy, or to take shortcuts by eliminating low LOD models to keep L.I. and avatar complexity low.  They have to learn to create details with textures instead of extra model vertices.  They also have to learn to create visual effects with SL's limited materials palette rather than the array of maps that they can use elsewhere.  Experience can lead to a certain arrogance, blaming SL for not being like whatever they are already familiar with, and that can be a block to further learning. It can be just as hard for a professional to learn SL's rules as it is for you and me to learn the tricks of basic modeling.

This can be true, however there is a flaw in these few statements.

Most of the courses you can find in RL focus on rendering for motion picture, for which you get a huge freedom in comparison to game assets creation. I myself have had a almost-3-years-long Master in Maya and VFX, during which i had to endlessly fight to be shown, or just be pointed in the right direction, in order to know the tools used in game industry, sometimes (if not most of the times) with no luck, either being shun aside for irrelevancy to the class topic, for lack of knowledge from the instructor or for being a useless feature or for lack of will to share that "elite information" altogether, admittedly or not. So it had to be my personal research to extract what was necessary to me from the "common professionals' knowledge". I did study twice as hard to acquire both fields knowledge, and it is all thanks to manuals i bought.

Motion picture modeling, texturing and rendering is made for speed, thing that is lower when creating game assets, but i can say it greatly improved the quality of my motion picture aimed models, although each and every platform may have different standards. I can work with legacy shaders as well as VRay's or Arnold's or MaxwellRenderer or Renderman or FurryBall because i looked into how those interpret light's physical behavior, to produce maps accordingly while integrating the game asset knowledge i was gathering along my study. 

So, IMHO, whoever claims to be a professional and blames a platform for not being as they're used/wish to, is not a professional because of a simple reason: 3D art is about finding a solution to get the desired result on the platform while complying to its requirements, rather than getting the asset in anyway and trick around it to mask its flaws in regard to the platform's behavior/look/requirements. It doesn't take a big effort to look at the tech specs to roughly interpret how a certain aspect should be handled. You're given a spec or a limit and you check on those while you're working.

Therefore the whole process of learning is as hard for you in SL as much as it is for the "professionals", with a little difference: "professionals" practiced a lot on modeling, think they've arrived to the goal and no further learning is needed "because it's SL that has to adapt to the TRUE standards", while the SL "amateur" has to learn modeling and texturing in a very limited environment knowing full well (hopefully) all the internal specs, standards and limitations.

So, to conclude: learn from the manual(s) to get the basics as commonly shown for motion picture production, do the homework projects for still renders and animations even if it's gonna be totally useless for SL. Then start moving onto a game engine like Unity (Unreal is overly complicated in asset management for a beginner so i wouldn't suggest trying that at first), see how content is made in there using the previously acquired knowledge to analyze the workflow and learn more about specific tools that were used in this other type of production. That will give you a better grasp on the main topics (like polycount and material maps) to let you finally move onto your desired platform, SL in your case. It all boils down to the time spent learning and understanding the principles behind production and a manual is the best starting point to minimize that time and maximize the amount of absorbed data.

[OptimoMaximo]

On 13/5/2018 at 2:46 PM, Gordon Nadezda said:

I am a member of the Builder's Brewery group and visit the sim often. I've monitored their training calendar, but have yet to see a session involving Blender. Maybe I'm missing something?

I guess i missed this post from you. I am one of the Builders Brewery instructors (Maya, formerly Blender) and, at the time of this writing, there is no Blender class. There was a Blender study group last winter though, maybe it could come back soon. However there are also dedicated BB group for both Maya and Blender at the group joining board, the easiest to spot is at the sandbox entrance. I often hang in there, so feel free to ask questions if you see me there =)

Edited May 31, 2018 by OptimoMaximo