The Lindens Should Put an End to Spam Cars AND Make a Policy on Driverless Vehicles on Public Roads

[Callum Meriman]

Maybe the poll isn't turning out as hoped after all. That's the biggest problem with unscientific, newspaper like polls. They are overly weighted by people with special interests.

The wording on the options is Scheiße too. "Allow self driving cars only in rez zones"? How does that even work?

[Fionalein]

Wait? Those are 10 persons who voted? You know what the only statisticaly reliable result of the poll is in this case? People are not interested in your poll ^^

Edited April 1, 2018 by Fionalein

[Rachel1206]

And maybe the 9 voters of the total 10 voters are alts of the original voter

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Rachel1206 said:

And maybe the 9 voters of the total 10 voters are alts of the original voter

No.

I'm not sure if that was a snide remark or serious but in either case, Prokofy is always honest.

[Fionalein]

4 hours ago, Rachel1206 said:

And maybe the 9 voters of the total 10 voters are alts of the original voter

No, that would make absolutely no sense. Faked and hyped surveys have way more participants... (example? Look at what happened when 4chan tried to influence the design your own burger awards at that German fastfood chain)

[Klytyna]

3 hours ago, ChinRey said:

is always honest.

Publishes "shame lists" accusing ex renters of being paedophiles and griefers, with no actual evidence...

Demands that "squatters" be banned from SL, then denies that helping themselves to over 500 sqm of LLDPW land by means of "linkset overhang" isn't "squatting" or "stealing"...

When the above was dealt with by Governance... Claimed this was the action of an "oppressive stalinist authority" and demanded dumbocratic control of Governance at weekly "public" meetings of "concerned citizens"...

3 hours ago, ChinRey said:

is always honest.

We must have radically different definitions of "honest".
 

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, Klytyna said:

We must have radically different definitions of "honest".

Maybe. In this case I mean honest as in somebody who genuinely believes what he says is true, says what he believes is true and doesn't deliberately try to falsify facts to prove his point.

Edited April 1, 2018 by ChinRey

[Qie Niangao]

On 29/03/2018 at 5:45 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

But what you are describing are LINDEN-scripted vehicles, and they don't spam up the roads. You take them at a spawn point, and then travel. None of the Linden trains were spam trains, to my recollection. If they did self-drive, there weren't so many of them!

The Linden SLRR train had a pretty rough reputation (even before it went crazy after the Havok physics engine update, throwing cars off the tracks onto private parcels). I spent a lot of time in Crumbi back then and every time the Linden train came through, the whole region would get super laggy -- but it's true they were relatively few and far between; maybe about every half-hour if memory serves. Also, the simulator is dramatically better than it was back then (2006-ish), so the same script probably wouldn't lag at all now, if adapted to current Havok.

Rather than update those vehicles, Michael instead encouraged private vehicles to use the SLRR, even without passengers. I suppose that decision could be reversed especially now that Michael isn't Lindening anymore, but I doubt there's wide public support for changing anything now.

[Prokofy Neva]

11 hours ago, ChinRey said:

No.

I'm not sure if that was a snide remark or serious but in either case, Prokofy is always honest.

You can't fake this poll, it only lets you vote once, going by avatar ID. I have another poll which I'll find the URL for, where one of the questions is about spam cars, and people oppose them.

I truly have no need to manipulate this poll i.e. by using alts or something because I really want to see what opinion is. And I'm confident that opinion runs more against spam cars than for them, as most people who care about these issues log on to SL and live on the sims, they don't have theories on the forums.

That's the thing I often find about polls, they differ than the "received wisdom" of the forums.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 3/26/2018 at 5:22 AM, Qie Niangao said:

This whole question of Linden autonomous vehicles on Linden pathways has a complicated history, at least with me.

At some early point in my SL, I rode Ryan Linden's trolley from Ahern through the Nova Albion sims to Luna, and that experience was in some part responsible for "hooking" me on Second Life. That trolley has come and gone a few times; it doesn't run now, nor does its counterpart in the former Teen Grid sims.

There also used to be a Linden-supplied passenger train that looped through much of the SLRR on the Atoll. That's long gone, I think because the script was incompatible with a Havok upgrade.

In Bay City, there are still Linden-owned trolleys, balloons, and ferries. Also on Sansara continent, rail-related "public private partnerships": the ONSR in the snowland sims, and the GSLR through color sims between Mocha and Purple.

All those run (or ran) constantly, not on-demand, and I like that. Personally, I'd hate to see all these switch to on-demand only. I'd also hate to see all the privately-operated, no-rider-required vehicles disappear, too, of which there are several fleets.

There's really no reason to think Lindens would write better scripts than residents -- in fact, quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.

All that said, there have been unfortunate resident-scripted vehicles in the past. And it's always seemed risky to allow every resident to run whatever they want, however many they want, on Linden land. There are other rules about region resources, etc., that can rein-in abuse of this privilege, but it seems just lucky that as far as we know there was only the one operation that really had to be curtailed.

I disagree. I think the Lindens would write better scripts and also more to the point, design the vehicles to look better.

[Prokofy Neva]

7 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Publishes "shame lists" accusing ex renters of being paedophiles and griefers, with no actual evidence...

Demands that "squatters" be banned from SL, then denies that helping themselves to over 500 sqm of LLDPW land by means of "linkset overhang" isn't "squatting" or "stealing"...

When the above was dealt with by Governance... Claimed this was the action of an "oppressive stalinist authority" and demanded dumbocratic control of Governance at weekly "public" meetings of "concerned citizens"...

We must have radically different definitions of "honest".
 

The problem with your theories is that they don't bear out in the reality of Second Life. There are zillions of resident-built structures over Linden roads, sometimes by necessity, sometimes simply because people have a need to get around some problem. The Lindens have been totally laissez-faire with this for years and years. Unless they actually obstruct traffic, they leave them alone. That body of facts stands against the idea that there is some "theft" here by *solving a Linden-created problem* on a *road shoulder* by putting a ramp over it. Especially when the DEFAULT Linden attitude -- as we found by filing tickets -- is to say "we never change our land, ever." Interestingly, after enough writing of tickets and explanations, they DID fix their land debacle here so that the ramp was no longer necessary. What's annoying is that I even commissioned someone to make a scripted draw-bridge of sorts once to try to deal with this problem but I couldn't get the angles to work and gave up. The Lindens had no problem with this ramp for three years. They only acted because ill-minded opportunists filed ARs and then they felt "they had to take action" or look bad. That's always the way with law-enforcement. But the reality is, the zillions of structures still remain all over SL because the Lindens truly do not care.

Squatters on private land taking up thousands of prims FROM OTHER RENTERS ON THAT SIM are a VERY BIG DIFFERENCE than putting a ramp over some small portion of EMPTY Linden land that doesn't affect their huge prim count in that area. Get a grip. As for the other claims, they are also all false, and there is all the evidence required. Given that there is no free press or rule of law in SL, and the Lindens will not provide governance of disputes between residents, the only way to warn people of bad behavior is to make do-not-rent lists. And that is everyone's right. No one is required to do business with anyone else in SL.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 3/30/2018 at 9:36 AM, Love Zhaoying said:

Agreed. If you create an “actual” poll on your blog, only your “supporters” who care enough to read your blog will respond.  More likely, if you perform a “poll” in your mind by asking a couple friends and making assumptions, your results are equally spurious. A link to said “poll” would give us more information. 

And before I forget - wording is everything. An UNBIASED poll will give completely different results than a rant on a vanity blog.

Public opinion polls scare people like you because, well, the public responds to them and that goes against your received wisdom. Good! I have one poll that has thousands of answers over a period of more than five years about what is most important for newbies in SL, and it's not what the Lindens always think, learning the wonky and largely unnecessary skills of the viewer like building. 

[ChinRey]

32 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I truly have no need to manipulate this poll i.e. by using alts or something because I really want to see what opinion is.

Fair enough.

Here are some of the basic rules to create a reasonably reliable poll:

1. The responses need to be from a representative selection of people in Second Life, not limited to people actively visting one forum or one blog. The only realistic way to do it, is to interview random people all across the grid.
2. You need several hundred responses.
3. To avoid accidentally leading questions, he questionaire must be created by somebody with no strong opinion about the matter themselves.
4. The interviewers must be people with no strong opinion about the matter themselves.
5. The answers must include a "no opinion" option.

Edited April 2, 2018 by ChinRey

[Rachel1206]

On 4/1/2018 at 3:56 PM, ChinRey said:

No.

I'm not sure if that was a snide remark or serious but in either case, Prokofy is always honest.

I was trying to be funny, make a joke - no intention meant against any voters or any person.

[Saz Ninetails]

So all this talk about massive vehicle spam is about the occasional pods that come through? I have ridden many pods in the past few years and they seem to go every half hour unless someone specifically summons one at the pod station. I personally like the fact that you can hop on anywhere if one comes past. I know of at least 2 routes that pass by one of my regular hangouts. It is fun to just suddenly shout "ooh it's mah Uber" and hop on to go for an adventure. I can hop off at any point and wander around, then pick up the next pod that goes past and carry on my journey. My understanding is that they run on public roads. The only issue I have had is when it goes across a sim border and I am stuck sitting in the air and the pod vanishes due to the usual connection issues. The vehicles are also phantom so there is no knocking people over. Hundreds of times I have been standing out on the road with a group of friends and a pod has passed right through me. Checked myself over and nope no damage done.

 

Proky, may I call you Proky? Maybe you need to learn theory of mind. Just because you know a fact doesn't mean that others know it. E.G. You are sat with Sam and Bill. Sam puts their wallet in box 1. Sam then leaves the room, Bill moves the wallet to box 2. When Sam comes back they look in box 1 as that is where they left it. Someone who does not know theory of mind, e.g. someone with ASD, may observe and think that Sam would look in box 2. They know the wallet has moved, but Sam doesn't as he didn't witness it.

You could apply this to your assumption that an innocent enquiry about a rental was "obviously" linked to this spamming issue. You imposed your thoughts on this person and assumed there was something vindictive going on. You may think everyone is out to get you, be careful what you wish for as you appear to have a rep for being nasty. The way you phrase your responses screams with hatred.

 

(edited to add ..... ah its THAT Proky, yes I have seen the spam and did feel sympathetic but yeah am over that now.)

Edited April 11, 2018 by Saz Ninetails
added something

[Prokofy Neva]

On 4/1/2018 at 9:41 PM, ChinRey said:

Fair enough.

Here are some of the basic rules to create a reasonably reliable poll:

1. The responses need to be from a representative selection of people in Second Life, not limited to people actively visting one forum or one blog. The only realistic way to do it, is to interview random people all across the grid.
2. You need several hundred responses.
3. To avoid accidentally leading questions, he questionaire must be created by somebody with no strong opinion about the matter themselves.
4. The interviewers must be people with no strong opinion about the matter themselves.
5. The answers must include a "no opinion" option.

Then go and make your own poll.

Any number of responses even way under 100 that show that the prevailing "wisdom" of the forums' gang is false is all to the good. And that's what this poll does. There is more opposition to spam cars than admitted.

This isn't about scientific sociology and interviewers, it's about a poll that you click on with questions that interest people.

You can't waste space on "no opinion" when there are already so many aspects of the issue.

Your rules aren't necessarily true, much less true for this situation. I get polls even from scientists at universities who ask leading questions, it's done all the time.

[Solar Legion]

That's nice - you admit you skew your polls. Your data is therefore worthless.

That is not even factoring in the simple fact that you do not have anywhere near a proper representative sample.

Congratulations.

[Hintswen Guardian]

9 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Then go and make your own poll.

Any number of responses even way under 100 that show that the prevailing "wisdom" of the forums' gang is false is all to the good. And that's what this poll does. There is more opposition to spam cars than admitted.

This isn't about scientific sociology and interviewers, it's about a poll that you click on with questions that interest people.

You can't waste space on "no opinion" when there are already so many aspects of the issue.

Your rules aren't necessarily true, much less true for this situation. I get polls even from scientists at universities who ask leading questions, it's done all the time.

I did a poll on my land and out of 1 response 100% of users said they like the pods.

[Prokofy Neva]

15 hours ago, Hintswen Guardian said:

I did a poll on my land and out of 1 response 100% of users said they like the pods.

Perhaps you got your friends to vote, plus you don't say 100% of WHAT.

I openly advertised my poll on the forums, knowing that this might lead to forums obsessives on this subject to come and flash mob the vote.

But EVEN WITH that factor, I still have MORE people voting AGAINST the spam vehicles, or at least for making it an AR'able offense if they pile up, than saying they should be allowed freedom. Very interesting!

Come and vote here at Flamingo Court Garage.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

On 4/11/2018 at 3:12 PM, Saz Ninetails said:

So all this talk about massive vehicle spam is about the occasional pods that come through? I have ridden many pods in the past few years and they seem to go every half hour unless someone specifically summons one at the pod station. I personally like the fact that you can hop on anywhere if one comes past. I know of at least 2 routes that pass by one of my regular hangouts. It is fun to just suddenly shout "ooh it's mah Uber" and hop on to go for an adventure. I can hop off at any point and wander around, then pick up the next pod that goes past and carry on my journey. My understanding is that they run on public roads. The only issue I have had is when it goes across a sim border and I am stuck sitting in the air and the pod vanishes due to the usual connection issues. The vehicles are also phantom so there is no knocking people over. Hundreds of times I have been standing out on the road with a group of friends and a pod has passed right through me. Checked myself over and nope no damage done.

 

Proky, may I call you Proky? Maybe you need to learn theory of mind. Just because you know a fact doesn't mean that others know it. E.G. You are sat with Sam and Bill. Sam puts their wallet in box 1. Sam then leaves the room, Bill moves the wallet to box 2. When Sam comes back they look in box 1 as that is where they left it. Someone who does not know theory of mind, e.g. someone with ASD, may observe and think that Sam would look in box 2. They know the wallet has moved, but Sam doesn't as he didn't witness it.

You could apply this to your assumption that an innocent enquiry about a rental was "obviously" linked to this spamming issue. You imposed your thoughts on this person and assumed there was something vindictive going on. You may think everyone is out to get you, be careful what you wish for as you appear to have a rep for being nasty. The way you phrase your responses screams with hatred.

 

(edited to add ..... ah its THAT Proky, yes I have seen the spam and did feel sympathetic but yeah am over that now.)

They're not occasional.

They come constantly.

If you actually log in and stand on a sim, you'll concede that.

They often go up in the air -- yes, the pods do that, too and get stuck.

Hintswen is an old story and isn't innocent on this one.

[Hintswen Guardian]

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Perhaps you got your friends to vote, plus you don't say 100% of WHAT.

I openly advertised my poll on the forums, knowing that this might lead to forums obsessives on this subject to come and flash mob the vote.

But EVEN WITH that factor, I still have MORE people voting AGAINST the spam vehicles, or at least for making it an AR'able offense if they pile up, than saying they should be allowed freedom. Very interesting!

Come and vote here at Flamingo Court Garage.

100% of all respondents clearly. Also your poll is currently sitting at 5 against, 10 for and that is before I bothered to go vote so stop skewing results to try make your argument seem more favorable.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Hintswen Guardian

[Saz Ninetails]

14 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

They're not occasional.

They come constantly.

If you actually log in and stand on a sim, you'll concede that.

They often go up in the air -- yes, the pods do that, too and get stuck.

Hintswen is an old story and isn't innocent on this one.

How often does a pod need to be coming past to be considered "constantly". I often stand on the roadway talking to friends and even with 2 routes running through Kuula its one approximately every 15 minutes. In the last week I have ridden many pods and think I only lost one once. In the past only time I have had issues was with a pod on Heterocera going round the continent when one sim I was trying to enter appeared to be full.

I DO log in, I DO stand on sims, NO I don't concede that they come constantly.

Pics or it didn't happen.

[Coffee Pancake]

On 29/03/2018 at 7:59 PM, Fionalein said:

You know, just like the mainland they run on ^^ all those sims they took me to ... all empty 

It isn't the pods that keep folks from visiting mainland... I fear it's the mainlanders themselves

It can't be the mainlanders, there are so few of them. Most of all continents have been glomped by large land owners, covered in ugly 2007 era full-bright housing and then put up for sale at exorbitant prices. Perhaps in order to force people into the very worst land occupancy option available - Rented mainland.

I mean really, if you're renting you should be on a private estate. Being a parcels "owner" in name and having full unrestricted access to all the provided land options, better curation, privacy, and in many cases living on an region with no direct neighbors can't really be beaten.

Opps, went off on a  bit of a tangent ... so sorry.

What we're we talking about again, mainland automated vehicles? Love em .. although they could do with a face lift.

[Fionalein]

3 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

What we're we talking about again, mainland automated vehicles? Love em .. although they could do with a face lift.

Look at Bay City. One car designer runs an automated mesh bus of his own design over there... 

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Fionalein said:

Look at Bay City. One car designer runs an automated mesh bus of his own design over there... 

Us Horizons folk wouldn't be caught dead in Bay City .. I shall send an alt >.>