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AR when mesh isn't seen?


Paul Hexem
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So, I have a friend that had to appeal a ban because she was AR'ed for being topless in a moderate sim. Well, she was wearing mesh. If there was a screenshot, the prim should have still been obvious. If there was no screenshot, I would think the AR wouldn't have any proof.

It was cleared up and it's not really an issue now, but it made me wonder something.

Why are people that won't update to see mesh even taken seriously at all when they file that sort of AR? Isn't this sort of thing fuel for the argument that viewers that can't see mesh should be disabled from logging in?

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Gadget Portal wrote:

Why are people that won't update to see mesh even taken seriously at all when they file that sort of AR?

I surely don't know.

Isn't this sort of thing fuel for the argument that viewers that can't see mesh should be disabled from logging in?

Absolutely.  

At some point, obsolete technology has to go.  

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You need to clarify if it was an AR to Linden Lab, or a report to the Sim owner/moderator. I have not heard about  LL taking action about such an AR. 

Maybe the one reporting called it an AR, or they filed an AR and told the Sim owner or one of the moderators. If they relly sent an AR (Abuse Report) to LL, I am sure it was tossed in the paper bin.

If your friend could log into SL, but could not access the sim, she bas banned from the Sim.

The question should go to the Sim owner. It is basically that they choose to believe resident A over resident B. The sim owner can investigate further, or just slap a ban. That is a sim owners privilegie, to ban anyone at anytime, for any reason. And LL knows about t, and accepts it. 

Why did a sim owner take that report seriously? Maybe they don't know what viewers visitors run. Maybe they just don.t care. Maybe the fact that someone clings to it viewers or computers that can see mesh at all is unknown to them. Maybe the one who reported it was a fiend of them.

This problem was before mesh btw. I had on an all prim top and was warned alredy 3 years ago, because a hostess at an event could not render my top. When a sim is full, everyting goes slow. Some computers are affected more than others. I solved it by teleprting out.and putting on a bikini top under. Standing and arguing with sim moderators in pointless. Than would be the fastest way to get a ban.

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Gadget Portal wrote:

So, I have a friend that had to appeal a ban because she was AR'ed for being topless in a moderate sim. Well, she was wearing mesh. If there was a screenshot, the prim should have still been obvious. If there was no screenshot, I would think the AR wouldn't have any proof.

It was cleared up and it's not really an issue now, but it made me wonder something.

Why are people that won't update to see mesh even taken seriously at all when they file that sort of AR? Isn't this sort of thing fuel for the argument that viewers that can't see mesh should be disabled from logging in?

"AR'ed for being topless in a moderate sim."

Were you a witness to this incident?

Topless is a Moderate Sim is not AR'able.

And while I am guessing you could have a shape that fits in mesh with out wearing an Alpha, all the mesh outfits I have seen include Alphas.

Something else may be going on here.

In fact I think there is a big topless boating event planned for tomorrow on public Linden Waterways.

So I'm a little skeptical here.

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I agree that viewers that can't see mesh should not be able to log in. 

I don't think LL will ever do that. Missing a customer is more serious to them than a resident beeing banned from a sim. LL does not care about resident disputes at all.

Even if they are on a new viewer that can see mesh, they can have problems seeing mesh. Due to packet loss, sim beeing crowded, bad internet connection, graphic card meant for lighter jobs than running high graphic games. LL can not keep them all out of SL. 

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Gadget Portal wrote:

 

Why are people that won't update to see mesh even taken seriously at all when they file that sort of AR? Isn't this sort of thing fuel for the argument that viewers that can't see mesh should be disabled from logging in?

Here we go again. *Sighs*

Your post had good discussion potential until you added the above paragraph.  You keep assuming that everyone who can't use the new viewers are purposely digging their heels in and just being stubborn.  Just from our "discussions" you should know that is not true 100% of the time.  You did not participate in the thread over on Merchants, nor do I know if you read it, where I basically bared my soul which got some people thinking and one of my prior "critics" even offered to hold an event to help raise money for me to be able to get a new PC.

Comments like people not taken seriously are inflammatory and I'm pretty much getting tired of them, Gadget.

As for the AR, it might interest to know that, until very recently, Bogart's had a no-mesh policy because of this very issue.  Between a combination of enough of their patrons who could not see mesh; mesh causing lag so that some people (including one of the hostesses from whom I got this info) had to turn mesh off; plus some people not knowing enough to wear the alpha layer and or underwear - this rule was temporarily instated because if their clothes could not be seen, it was violating their dress code.  This rule has since been lifted but, iirc, there is something posted about making sure one is wearing the alpha, etc.

The point being, there are still issues with mesh and not all of them, as indicated above, have to do with the viewer/older PC issues.

ETA: Yanno, with comments like your's and Marianne's elitist attitudes wtih no concern nor compassion for anyone else who may be struggling in life - just as long as your personal needs are met, I sometimes feel like just packing SL in altogether.  Fortunately my SL friends do not share your small-mindedness.  The thing I keep wondering is....why does it bother you that some people can't see mesh?  It is not hurting your SL experience at all, while I have never seen SL above 64m draw distance for the last 6 years, plus slogging through immense lag.  I could be the one complaining about LL making changes that effectively will cause some formerly long-time active residents to leave.  Yet you keep bringing up this tired argument.  Why can't you just live your SL on your super-dooper, mega-high end graphics PC and let those of us who have to work for every bit of enjoyment on SL due to LL continuing to push up the graphic standards do so without snarky comments.

 

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If the sim was a private estate the owner can ban them for any reason or no reason at all.  A landowner can establish rules for their own land that are more restrictive than the rules for the particular rating of the sim.  Many places prohibit any nudity and it is the responsibility to the person wearing mesh or sculpts to use alpha layers or underwear to ensure they are never showing naughty bits when they go there..

I have a newer top of the line computer that has no problem rending mesh.  However in very laggy sims it sometimes won't. I can't even see the prim itself sometimes.  So you can't lay the blame only on  people that have older computers and can't run run a mesh viewer.  If they were reported it could have been anyone.

If she was truly AR'd to LL and not a sim owner and was banned, I would bet you most anything that it wasn't the nudity that got her banned.  You aren't getting the whole story.

The idea of banning anyone that can't see mesh from logging into SL is absurd and elitist.  If someone can't run it and can't upgrade for whatever reason, it is no skin off your back if they choose to use what SL they can rather than not at all.  The only reason I can think anyone would feel this way is that they are so vain and full of themself, they can't stand to think of anyone seeing their avatar or possessions as less than perfect.

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Gadget Portal wrote:

So, I have a friend that had to appeal a ban because she was AR'ed for being topless in a moderate sim. Well, she was wearing mesh. If there was a screenshot, the prim should have still been obvious. If there was no screenshot, I would think the AR wouldn't have any proof.

The AR people are known for not requiring any proof or evidence at all to judge the 'victim' guilty. They only need someone to submit an AR.

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Here's why I act the way I do. A couple good reasons. I won't list the forum troll ones this time around.

 

There is no reason not to have a decent computer these days. For 300 USD, I could build you a computer that'll run SL decently on high settings. For 500, it could run ultra. PC manufacturers have driven their own prices down so much, you could spend 200 for the tower, put in a GPU yourself for 100 more, and still do well. Hell, the prices are so cheap, I'd build and mail you a computer from my spare parts, for free, that could run SL well- except the shipping cost is more than buying the computer new.*

 

Every week, I see complaints on the forum about updates and upgrades. If SL were optimized for those people as requested, we'd lose most of the features that make it interesting and make it look good. Which is the last thing I want.

 

*Edit: The US Post office has those pre-paid boxes. I'm not a charity, but if things are that bad, I'd be happy to spend some time and spend some money on some sort of "help me upgrade" exchange program for SL users in the US. There's a tech guy in my local paper that does something similar for non-commercial PC owners.

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Even with the latest mesh viewers, there are times when some meshes don't load promptly or at all because the pipeline is full. If this happens there's no way of knowing there's a mesh on the way so if a person's wearing a mesh that hasn't arrived for another person and they're wearing an alpha they appear as floating body parts and if they're not they're nekkid.

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Gadget Portal wrote:

Here's why I act the way I do. A couple good reasons. I won't list the forum troll ones this time around.

 

There is no reason not to have a decent computer these days. For 300 USD, I could build you a computer that'll run SL decently on high settings. For 500, it could run ultra. PC manufacturers have driven their own prices down so much, you could spend 200 for the tower, put in a GPU yourself for 100 more, and still do well. Hell, the prices are so cheap, I'd build and mail you a computer from my spare parts, for free, that could run SL well- except the shipping cost is more than buying the computer new.*

 

Every week, I see complaints on the forum about updates and upgrades. If SL were optimized for those people as requested, we'd lose most of the features that make it interesting and make it look good. Which is the last thing I want.

 

*Edit: The US Post office has those pre-paid boxes. I'm not a charity, but if things are that bad, I'd be happy to spend some time and spend some money on some sort of "help me upgrade" exchange program for SL users in the US. There's a tech guy in my local paper that does something similar for non-commercial PC owners.

May I ask what world you live in? $300 USD is a lot to some people and it's not for YOU or I to judge if they can afford to change their computer situation. Keep in mind SL users are from all over the world, you have no idea of each person that logs into sl the economics of their family or their country. Just because someone can't afford a whiz bang top notch piece of equipment does not mean they can't enjoy sl. I have a super duper gaming computer and depending on the sim I am on I may encounter a problem.

BTW the reasons you give for acting the way you do, sorry IMO are not good by any means, your offer to spend some time upgrading computers, I would wonder how you would pick and choose your candidates for those services. Don't assume the people that have not made upgrading their computer not knowledgable or able either. Your comment about certain users not being able to log in, seeing the replies you recieved to that I am convinced brought out your non charity comment about helping upgrade strangers computers. Worry about your own computer and connection and maybe as suggested by another poster stop insulting those that don't drive a ferrari on the net like you. If you don't like the weekly posts as you say that complain about this or that, skip over them and read something else.

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LL should never do that, not letting users log on because they don't have the viewer you and others think they should or computer specs. Residents ARE more important than a ban, most of the times a person is banned form a sim the full story is not told and it's a hine session. Sim owners have the right to do as they please. When I am paying out $600 USD a month I will damn sure make the rules I feel is fair to all and I could care less who doesn't like it. It's usually those who can't override the sim owners rules that get ruffled about it. Be happy that you can log in. Be happy people pay for sims. It's people like you and Gadget with your selfish thoughts on dictating another person's sl experience that make me not want to open these sims back up for people to use, but I have to realize you guys are the smaller part of the sl population so that's what keeps me doing it.

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

Even with the latest mesh viewers, there are times when some meshes don't load promptly or at all because the pipeline is full. If this happens there's no way of knowing there's a mesh on the way so if a person's wearing a mesh that hasn't arrived for another person and they're wearing an alpha they appear as floating body parts and if they're not they're nekkid.

I wondered about this supposed nudity. Are there still usable viewers so old that they not only can't see Mesh, but don't handle alpha layers either?

Or could there be avatar shapes so perfectly matched to their mesh attachments that they don't even need the alphas?

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Gadget Portal wrote:

There is no reason not to have a decent computer these days.

 


Very true.  But a lot of us have absolutely no reason to buy or upgrade our existing computers, which work just fine for everything else we need them for, just to run SL a little better.

I'm not struggling but if I suddenly had an extra $300 I sure wouldn't be spending it on something I already have.

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Qie Niangao wrote:

Or could there be avatar shapes so perfectly matched to their mesh attachments that they don't even need the alphas?

I've been lucky to find some mesh clothes that fit so well that no alpha is needed.  It's very rare though.  Usually I wear underwear with those mesh clothes.

 

I have one mesh bikini though: it does not have alpha mask and it is impossible to wear any underwear under it without parts of the underwear showing.  Therefore I just wear the mesh bikini.

Mesh-bikini_063.jpg

Then some unfotunate unlucky person might see me wondering in the buff on some beaches.  Shock, shock!  :matte-motes-agape:  :matte-motes-wink:

I'm sure that Linden Lab wouldn't mind that at all because they are perfectly aware of the problem.

(I even once asked one Linden that are they going disable non-mesh viewers because of this. The answer was "No".)

 

Well, on the other hand the land owner might or might not mind depending on what are their preferences.  They can do what ever they wish as it's their land and their rules.  But the fact is that an AR, because of this issue, will be totally disregarded by Linden Lab.

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The point is that people who simply don't want or can't view mesh shouldn't bother those who can. I wouldn't change anything or accept being banned somewhere because someone wants to run a complex 3D world but on the other side doesn't bother to get a decent computer.

I mean...they are paying every month or their Internetconection and they probably have a TV at home...don't tell me they are too poor to buy a computer that can handle mesh. If you put 2 Euros/Dollars a  day in a jar you are able to buy one at the end of the year.

 And the point is, they are NOT having it, they can't see mesh.

I don't say they should be forced to keep up with todays technologie, but if I see on the other side how some want others to limit themselves..thats just pointless.

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Syo said it better than me.

 

I have no problem with people that use old or underpowered computers. My issue is, and always has been, with people that use these computers and complain about updates or hinder the experience of people around them.

 

And I readily admit to coming across as rude (or worse) when I'm on the topic, because 9 times out of 10, people simply won't ugrade because they're stubborn or willfully ignorant to their options, not because they're financially unable.

 

Just look at my post last night. I made an offer to help, at my expense, and it was immediately blown off. That tells me people don't want to upgrade, they just want to ruin the experience for those of us with better computers.

 

Czari is an example of that 10th person. Clearly she wants to upgrade, and I don't recall ever seeing a post from her complaining about updates. So my negative comments don't apply to her. My offer to help upgrade does, though.

 

Edit: Aside from the first version of mesh enabled veiwers, before the bugs were worked out, I've never had a problem seeing mesh, sculpted, or prim attachments on people, no matter how crowded a venue. Avatar textures have gone hours without loading on full sims, but I never had trouble with their attachments.

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