Linden Labs Need to take more of a stand!

[Hiroshi Viper]

Whats the point in making sale agreements & Covenant when land sim owners can take your land away from you after you paid just because they say "you cannot do that, because i said so" and then they can keep the money because they know for a fact Linden labs will not have any involvement with it, i also have had money taken from me by an object giving to me asking for money permissions and linden labs saying they cannot give me back the money but yet they can ban the person? how exactly do linden labs think? ive been playing secondlife for over 6 years....and i cannot vent how much anger i have towards linden labs, please linden labs....buck up your idea's and stop treating people like complete and utter idiots.

[Ann Otoole]

buy mainland and you won't have drama isues. sorry but that is exacly how it is.

[Faithless Babii]

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Ann Otoole wrote:

buy mainland and you won't have drama isues. sorry but that is exacly how it is.

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I own private estates, we dont do drama...I see plenty of drama about mainland because of issues relating too (and this is not exhaustive)

Littering, no covenant, overhanging trees etc. fugly builds.irritating neighbours,sim restarts needed that you cant do without LL assistance...lag lag lag...over crowding by breedable lovers, resource hogging...and many many more..all that Ive read about hjere on these forums (and other forums)

The key is to find a good landlord,established over many years. Dont by guided by price alone and make sure youre going to get an enforced, policed covenant.

Im not saying there arent mainland ladnlords who operate their sims well...but it certainly is not the case that private estates are all bad guys either.

[Ceka Cianci]

if you are still looking..check out skybeam..they have been around  since i can remember..

i've been there since like 2007..and they are a great community..and like 20 sims also..

and they are always having community parties and change of seasons and all kinds of good stuff..

just food for thought ..

there are really good estate owners out there..

i was real lucky to find one very early on =)

[Marigold Devin]

If this happened out in real life - that you paid someone an amount of money to rent or buy property, then legal documents would have to be drawn up.  In real life, sometimes people do pay money to people for rent, but no such legal document is signed, and then they wonder why they end up homeless and out of pocket.

It's always wise to do a bit of homework before parting with cash, whether it's making a purchase on ebay (ie by checking on the seller's ratings), or find out how long someone has been land dealing/leasing in Second Life.  It is also always wise not to invest more money in anything that you can't afford to lose (real life and second life).

Linden Lab have got far bigger issues to deal with than the stupidity of residents who choose to part with their money without using a bit of commonsense. They can only do so much. They are not our mum and dad.

 



[Pussycat Catnap]

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Ann Otoole wrote:

buy mainland and you won't have drama isues. sorry but that is exacly how it is.

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This.

On mainland, the drama is there, but the rules are clear and the enforcement neutral.

 

[Tari Landar]

Sometimes even great estate owners, make crappy decisions, or have staff that does. It's something you, unfortunately, can do very little about.

Some people just aren't cut out for the business, imo, and sometimes they don't even realize it at first.

I think both mainland and private estates *can have their own issues. Aside from owning your own full sim, direct from LL, you're subject to whatever rules someone else has put in place...and whatever actions they choose to carry out. In other words, you've always got some risk involved, no matter what, or some potentially negative aspects to deal with. KInda goes with the territory in sl, I think. Some never have to deal with it, which is awesome, some have had to deal with it lots,  and you've got a lot that sit somewhere inbetween.

I understand exactly why LL says they won't get involved in resident to resident disputes-even if I don't always agree with their decisions. At least they tell us up front they won't, so we can't claim to be uninformed, if we simply choose not to be.(not saying you, or anyone did/does, just that I'm surprised they even tell us upfront about that aspect, lol)

[Ceka Cianci]

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Marigold Devin wrote:

If this happened out in real life - that you paid someone an amount of money to rent or buy property, then legal documents would have to be drawn up.  In real life, sometimes people do pay money to people for rent, but no such legal document is signed, and then they wonder why they end up homeless and out of pocket.

It's always wise to do a bit of homework before parting with cash, whether it's making a purchase on ebay (ie by checking on the seller's ratings), or find out how long someone has been land dealing/leasing in Second Life.  It is also always wise not to invest more money in anything that you can't afford to lose (real life and second life).

Linden Lab have got far bigger issues to deal with than the stupidity of residents who choose to part with their money without using a bit of commonsense. They can only do so much. They are not our mum and dad.

 



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in that sense this is RL as well..if the resident wanted to go after the estate owner..that's how it would be handled..

they go to those same people for help..then they go after the estate owner just like they would some land lord in rl

taking someones money in here is just as wrong as off the internet..it gets handled in the same manor..the person going after the one that took it..if they are in two different countries..that's gonna make it a bit harder..

LL has no authority really to get involved..they could ban someone but that's about it..

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

You do not give any real details so its hard to judge if you were being fairly treated or not. 

If you broke convenient then the sim owner has a right to repossess your land because to allow you to continue is not fair to other land owners on the sim.  A covenant can't cover every possible situation that land owners / tenants present to the estate, so many covenants have broader clauses against eyesores, excessive scripts, or using more than your fair share of the sim resources etc. The estate owner then sometimes has to make a subjective decision about it.  The wise thing to do is that if a covenant is silent on specific situations but has broader clauses giving wider discretion to the estate owner, is to ask before you do what you are planning.

Most sim owners will give a warning as the first step and a time period to bring your property into compliance before they will repossess, although if the situation is serious enough and your neighbors are complaining sometimes a warning is not appropriate.  If you received a warning and did not comply or you created a serious situation, you have only yourself to blame. 

I do however realize that there are people out there that may repossess unfairly.  However in all the years I've been in SL I've only personally known this to happen once.  Most of the time when I hear complaints such as yours and know the actual details I have to agree with the estate owner.  This is not to say though that this is the case in your situation.

The bottom line is that the TOS that you agreed to specifically states that LL will not involve itself in disputes such as this.  Even if they did there is no guarantee you would get any justice as they are not known for always making the best decision.   You always have the option to take the dispute to RL court which is what happens in RL in property disputes.  If you don't like that, then you can choose to only deal directly with LL in the future.  However you need to realize  that as others have pointed out, that there is a whole laundry list of issues with this too.  SL life in no more perfect than RL.

 

[Marigold Devin]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

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Marigold Devin wrote:

If this happened out in real life - that you paid someone an amount of money to rent or buy property, then legal documents would have to be drawn up.  In real life, sometimes people do pay money to people for rent, but no such legal document is signed, and then they wonder why they end up homeless and out of pocket.

It's always wise to do a bit of homework before parting with cash, whether it's making a purchase on ebay (ie by checking on the seller's ratings), or find out how long someone has been land dealing/leasing in Second Life.  It is also always wise not to invest more money in anything that you can't afford to lose (real life and second life).

Linden Lab have got far bigger issues to deal with than the stupidity of residents who choose to part with their money without using a bit of commonsense. They can only do so much. They are not our mum and dad.

 



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in that sense this is RL as well..if the resident wanted to go after the estate owner..that's how it would be handled..

they go to those same people for help..then they go after the estate owner just like they would some land lord in rl

taking someones money in here is just as wrong as off the internet..it gets handled in the same manor..the person going after the one that took it..if they are in two different countries..that's gonna make it a bit harder..

LL has no authority really to get involved..they could ban someone but that's about it..

 

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Yes, that is how it would be handled. Just like in RL. 

In RL, I actually did rent a property through a letting agent; someone I thought I could trust, because he had been in business in a small town where everyone knew everyone else (population only 2500), and I  had rented from him a few years earlier.  What I didn't know, until the landlord came knocking directly on my door, was that my rent payments weren't reaching him, and the letting agent had told my landlord that I hadn't paid for two or three months.  Of course then it became my word against a trusted letting agent BUT with it being a small town, my landlord could actually ask around, and it was soon discovered my letting agent had fallen into financial difficulties, and was attempting to use our money as a cushion for a couple of months, in the hope he could get back on track again before his own house was repossessed. 

I couldn't go to the town's council/the local authority and say "Oi, what are you going to do about the fact that my letting agent has ripped me off three month's rent", because it had nothing to do with the council. Just like, in Second Life, Linden Lab have nothing to do with who rents from/to whom.

Happily for me in real life, everything came out ok in the end, because there were so many of us in the same situation, and it is all put down to experience.

And back to the OP's situation. They're going to have to put certain things down to experience, and take the advice offered by others, perhaps to purchase mainland, which does come under the responsibility of LL, being the equivalent of the town council/local authority.

[Penny Patton]

I'm not the biggest fan of mainland (supports fewer avatars, more of a crapshoot in terms of your neighbors) can be pulling teeth to get the Lindens to come and enforce their own rules) so instead I prefer to take the time and research landlords, learn their reputation, how long they've been around, see if anyone I know has experience with them.

I generally also like to talk to the landlord first, ask them some questions and get a feel for them, before I start giving them money.

 

Diving in blind is the worst. There's lots of skeevy landlords out there. Best to weed them out first even if it takes a while.

[Orca Flotta]

1) There is only 1 Linden Lab, not a lot of Linden Labs. They didn't multiply like bunnies, not even after you supposedly spent 6 years in SL.

2) Reading a covenant often doesn't do the trick, it's the comprehension of what's stated in there that's the important part.

3) What you described is by LL and commonly defined as 'Residents Dispute', something LL never ever got involved with. It's business solely between your landlord and you. If you think your landlord has done something wrong, against the TOS, you'tre free to AR them. As long as it isn't a TOS violence you're on your own.

4) LL doesn't treat you like a complete and utter idiot, you obviously brought this problem onto yourself by acting not according the the covenant. If such disputes arise a good landlord would kick you off the land but reimburse you the unused tier pro rata, or maybe even the full amount.

 

[Heart Brimmer]

Royal Properties is another good one. They have quite a few SIMS and have been in operations for a very long time. I rent from them and have never had any problems. They are prompt in answering complaints or questions, plus they have a very good variety of landscapes too.

Heart

[Qie Niangao]

It's been a couple years now, but at one point, the Lab was considering offering some land rental automation that landlords (estate or mainland) could choose to use, and if they did, their tenants would be protected to a much greater extent than they can be now.  As I recall, part of it was adopting some standard covenant and terms and conditions of the rental.  

Without some such standardization, automation would be impossible, and enforcement would be as costly and inefficient as the RL legal system.  I'd guess such a pastime would appeal to a very limited number of enthusiasts. :smileytongue:

I don't know if it would have been a good idea or not, and it's academic anyway. I haven't heard anything about it for ages, and it seems utterly irrelevant to current Linden priorities, to the extent those can be divined. 

[Knowl Paine]

All Residents could benefit if a better method of contracting  was to be created.

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I agree.  It would be nice to change the TOS so that if you rent /sell land you agree to binding arbitration in the case of tenant disputes and have official arbitrators here.  I bet LL could round up some grad students studying internet law or even a class supervised by a prof to take it on as a class project that would be willing to do it for free.  They could appoint a few volunteer residents with proven expertise in various aspects of SL as consultants so the students don't have to be SL experts but have a reliable source of information.  Perhaps more people would be willing to invest in land if such a system existed and it would increase LL's profits.

That said, I doubt that it will ever voluntarily happen though because LL probably doesn't want to do anything that could expose them to potential liability.

[161488303349]

i wouldnt mind if linden changed the Buy wording for estates to Rent. payment in advance for a period that the estate can set themselves. i wouldnt mind either if when an estate landlord evict a tenant then the time remaining is auto refunded. if the tenant quit themselves then no auto refund. if the estate default and go under then tenants refunded prorata out of any lindens$ that the estate owner may still have. any amount held in us dollars account tho should proper go to linden if a default

[Lynda Baran]

I've had land from Azure Islands for a little over 3 years now and have nothing but good things to say about them.   I've had both residential land, and at one point lived on a mix residential-commercial sim.   They've always been very helpful and responded within an hour to any inquiry or request for support. 

Many of their sims offer bonus prims, a lot of them double prims because they set aside a percentage of each sim to open space.  This space severs as a buffer between parcels and the prims saved are distributed among the other parcels.   From my experience, even on the commercial sims they don't pack people in so tightly that it causes a major lag problem.

The only complaint I have is, at one point they consolidated and during the process sold off some sims.   But they gave me 30 days notice and assisted me in finding a new location that met my desires.   Tearing down everything and moving was a bit of a pain.   But, they gave me a week to make the moves after transferring my tier balance to the new parcel.

So it just a matter of find a good land management company.

 

[Ayesha Lytton]

I am a longtime estate owner...this person was not my customer, but I've seen this many times. A person agrees to rules, refuses to follow them, and then gets upset when the rules are enforced and goes around complaining that they were terribly wronged. 

I have very rarely had to evict someone for covenant violations. They always get multiple notices first and an opportunity to correct the problem, which most choose to do. If there is a problem object, such as a malfunctioning security orb, a temp rezzer, or something causing severe lag, an estate manager can return just that item, leaving the rest of the tenant's belongings intact. If someone has ban lines up and doesn't remove them within 24 hours of a warning, a staff member will reclaim the lot, remove the ban lines, and set it back for sale to the tenant for 0L$ - again, without returning any objects. These peaceful methods usually resolve the problem, the tenant stays and is happy. 

That said, if someone chooses to leave or has to be told to leave because they won't follow the rules they agreed to when they rented, they don't get a refund. I have a very strict no refund policy (part of what they agreed to) and it is not my responsibility to compensate people for not reading. They can choose to stay and follow the rules, or leave their remaining tier and go elsewhere. I'm glad LL doesn't get involved in resident disputes...it allows me to run my business as I see fit. I treat people fairly, and expect the same in return. 

[Maelstrom Janus]

Do you send people wearing jack boots and armed with teargas and truncheons to evict these naughty people ?? Its nice to see Linden encouraging a realm of feudal lords within its domain

[Maelstrom Janus]

Come on Anne dont talk tosh...everywhere on the mainland Ive lived Ive had a neigbour who was a real pain in the backside...nutters too most of em.....

[Rene Erlanger]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

if you are still looking..check out skybeam..they have been around  since i can remember..

i've been there since like 2007..and they are a great community..and like 20 sims also..

and they are always having community parties and change of seasons and all kinds of good stuff..

just food for thought ..

there are really good estate owners out there..

i was real lucky to find one very early on =)

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The owner of Skybeam, Charlene Trudeau  is a friend of mine......I second what you said....awesome Landlady and would highly recommend her.!

Melody Regent of Regent Estates is very good too as is Alliez Mysterio of Alliez Estates.....all 3 have been in the Rental Business for a number of years. Very stable Estates.