Is Lindenlab choosing a doomed path for SL ? Tell us if the EEP and PBR introduction changed the way you play SL

[BilliJo Aldrin]

16 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

That's fair, I've always been in favour of people voting with their L$, and it's not like creating items that work with pre-PBR viewers is a lot of work.  I suspect once residents start to see more well-made PBR content it will become quite popular, if not LL are going to be in trouble because it sounds like the new rendering system is at the heart of a lot of their future plans for SL.

yea, if the item says PBR, I’ll take a pass.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

16 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Given that more residents use TPVs than LLs own viewer I suspect we'll find out from "other sources".  

I guess if LL gave people want they wanted instead of what they thought people should have, more people might use the LL viewer

[BilliJo Aldrin]

15 hours ago, Aglaia said:

PBR is a big improvement, but like any innovation, it requires to get used to it and change our habits a little bit. Right now there is almost no content at all made with PBR, so the SL users might not see any improvement. But wait a few months and years, when all SL will be populated of PBR stuff, everything will look more realistic.

I've read in this thread that PBR is all about reflectiveness and metal ? Not at all. All kinds of materials reach an upper level of realism with PBR: leather, plastic, wood, glass, stone, paper, ceramic, fiber, really everything. They look better because they look more realistic, and they look more realistic because because they get affected by the lighting in a much more natural way than they were with the legacy Blinn-Phong textures.

Another improvement that comes with this update is the use of Reflecion Probes. With them, you can make some much more realistic areas like caves and caverns, or even just some simple bedroom. See this photo for example, bright outside (kind of end of afternoon) and dark inside: 

 

PBR materials are also actually EASIER to make for creators. In the legacy Blinn-Phong method, you had to bake your diffuse texture. Depending on the lighting you used to bake your texture, it could produce very different results, and you got some objects that can look very good or very bad in SL, depending on the lighting that is used in the place where this object is rezzed. With PBR, there is no problem anymore. You produce your materials and the result is not affected by the lighting that you used in your 3D software.

All that said, i think that Linden should really give more documentation about how to use PBR. They made some videos and a wiki page, but it is for builders, not really for the end-users. However there are some important things to know to get a real profit of PBR stuff. Especially : it is very important to understand what is a reflection probe and how to use it if you buy some PBR stuff and rez it in your home.

I encourage everybody to have a look at this this video. I'm not the author of it but i will give this link to my customers to help them. It is beginer-friendly and it explains how to setup a probe in your home.

 

I don't think that Firestorm or SL viewer should give the option to switch to PBR / Not PBR. This kind of thing slows down the adoption. Technologies are improving all the time, we have to accept it and stay in the train. Staying in our comfort zone may be cool and relaxing, but that's now how a platform like SL can keep improving.

So what is the problem if everyone else has PBR, and I’m the only one that doesn’t?

It doesn’t hurt or affect anyone else if i can’t see PBR, does it?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

15 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

No, it really isn't.

 

People who make and sell things, on a PROFESSIONAL basis, as opposed to pretending they are "leet artistes", have a very clear workflow.

 

Find out what people want to buy, make what pe9ople want to buy, sell people what they want to buy, PROFITS!

 

SL's "leet artistes" keep trying to claim that they are "leet artistes" and that we should buy stuff we don't want from them, because it's our "duty" as customers to support the EGOS of "leet artistes".

 

I remember the owner of one store I *used* to shop at expressing shock when people told her they had no more reason to shop at her store since she  had dropped suopport for SL's most popular female mesh body.

She SERIOUSLY believed that we'd all switch bodies so we could continue to support her LEET artiste pretentions.

 

Its like when maitreya came out with Lara x, so now im supposed to repurchase all my tops so they fit lara x?

ummmm no, i’ll continue buying from people that continue making tops for Lara, and if no one makes them any more, like I already said, I have enough clothes for ten second lives. 

Unlike so many in here, I don’t wait breathlessly for the “next big thing”

If something new comes out and I like it, I’ll get it, otherwise I’ll carry in with what I have.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

15 hours ago, Vivienne Schell said:

For fluent gameplay (more than 20 fps, which is kind of conservative), it ever did. But mind that many, many people do not need or want to move or participate in any kind of mass event or whatever. They just sit or stand around and chat. And how the world looks does not matter much to them, cause they only render within 32m or 60 m range and all shaders off. These people are not a just a significant minority, and even if they did never jump onto the itsibity shiny mesh asset, mesh body and fashion train, they contribute a valuable share of activity and money.

Sure, LL could simply shut the door, but there were valid, commercial reasons for not doing so. Maybe the course of the Lab changed lately, cause the stats tell them that this share of the population is shrinking beyond commercial significance, but I doubt that.

I think that they thought that it was time for something new, because only something new is "dynamics". And dynamics keep the audience interested. Before PBR it was windlight, mesh, pathfinding (big bummer), experiences, bento and whatever. Now it´s this PBR thing. Thought is that all the shiny PBR houses and clothes and all that will make their audience go for it, purchase it and stay happy customers. Unfortunately they underestimated the impact on the lower end and midrange audience, either by lousy advice by some "experts" or by simple incompetence of their coders, or both.

Or they knowingly drop lower end for high end exclusively. But if they do that without offering an alternative for lower end (maybe mobile) this will result in an to be expected and predictable failure. They only would repeat the Sansar debacle.

The only worthwhile improvement was mesh, because it made me look wayyyy better. All the rest is crap that I ignore as much as possible 😂

[BilliJo Aldrin]

15 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I'm currently at the LL meeting. Patch has stated that LL are working on an update to mainland to fix the default lighting being dark on mainland.

Has said it will be a matter of weeks rather than months.

Translation: it will take months rather than years

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Someone sent me a pic a few months ago, to show me how horrible I looked I guess, but I said, no I look fine in my viewer

Obviously they had some horrible EEP set, just set midday and everyone will look fine

The number of messes we are going to see will increase exponentally going forward.

 

But the other girl looks ok.  Can't be JUST the EEP.   Hmmm. 🤔

[BilliJo Aldrin]

14 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Where do you go to see avi's like that!?

you dont have to go anywhere, just say hello when a sex group chat opens, they will be iming you before you know it 😂

Edited Thursday at 12:05 PM by BilliJo Aldrin
spelling

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

But the other girl looks ok.  Can't be JUST the EEP.   Hmmm. 🤔

It was just me that looked washed out. I have no idea why. My skin is super pale, but not that pale. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 hours ago, DevlinMcDermott said:

Of course, they will exponentially increase. And do you think your average every day computer user barely knows how to surf the web.  Will use a service like SL where you must now tinker with settings and preferences for at least an hour to get a decent picture on their end?  Of course not!   And that is why SL is emptying out.  And Will is so in droves.  Now that PBR  has been implemented,!  No one is going to sit around for hours tinkering with settings; they haven't a clue what they are about. 

The "average everyday computer user" is an endangered species, because the "average everyday computer" is an endangered species. That niche is being quickly replaced by mobile phones. It's the same thing as with cameras, music players, etc.

The only reason for computers to survive are if they can provide experiences that phones, etc. can't, and the "average everyday computer?" Can't.

Pivoting from developing viewers for low-end computer-OS hardware to phone-OS hardware is really the only realistic way forward.

And you'll be a lot happier if you buy even a basic video card and plug it into your computer.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

But the other girl looks ok.  Can't be JUST the EEP.   Hmmm. 🤔

She looks fine.

FINE.

[Toothless Draegonne]

13 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

So why are you  here? Just to laugh at all the losers?

Nope, just here handing out free reality checks. You want to hobble yourself, I'm not going to stop you.

But screaming about standards that should have been adopted 10 years ago isn't going to do anything good. Trying to tell people that you'll need to drop $1500 on a computer that can run SL is not going to do anybody any good either.

[Psyche Starling]

10 hours ago, Irina Forwzy said:

Don't worry the "Creative" defenders will claim the majority that are in events every month to try to make sells are just creating for the sake creating.

If that were the case, they wouldn't be creating as much lingerie passing off as clothes. Considering many of us have complained in the past for that   When you see something you like being created it's not because of "Creativity" it's because what you want isn't being sold; especially if you look around and majority are dressing the way do now.

I had a conversation with someone I loved in sl, an old vintage, quirky store.  When I asked her why she wasn't making as much vintage and was mostly doing lingerie she admitted it.  The vintage pieces weren't selling as much.  She ended up getting mad once and making several vintage pieces before she completely left SL (the store is still there but hasn't produced much in years).

I think there's a logical fallacy in there, though--you're assuming there's a huge silent majority of creators who prefer long skirts but are being browbeat into making lingerie. It sounds like you met one. That sucks for her, it really does!

But, and I'm making up the numbers here because I don't really know, but the reason the lingerie is selling is because a lot of people like it. Let's say 75% of SL folks prefer the skimpy clothes and 25% prefer the modest clothes. But creators are drawn from that same pool of human beings. So probably about 75% of creators prefer those styles too.

I say this as a wearer of many long skirts. It's a niche. Some stores are doing well in that niche; others are small-scale enterprises where they're not counting on it for their income and are doing it as a hobby. 

[Irina Forwzy]

2 minutes ago, Psyche Starling said:

I think there's a logical fallacy in there, though--you're assuming there's a huge silent majority of creators who prefer long skirts but are being browbeat into making lingerie. It sounds like you met one. That sucks for her, it really does!

But, and I'm making up the numbers here because I don't really know, but the reason the lingerie is selling is because a lot of people like it. Let's say 75% of SL folks prefer the skimpy clothes and 25% prefer the modest clothes. But creators are drawn from that same pool of human beings. So probably about 75% of creators prefer those styles too.

I say this as a wearer of many long skirts. It's a niche. Some stores are doing well in that niche; others are small-scale enterprises where they're not counting on it for their income and are doing it as a hobby. 

I used long skirts as an example.  It's not the only style or item that creators are not creating due to demand for other items. But it proves a point that creators in and of themselves aren't only creating because they like something.

[Psyche Starling]

2 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

I used long skirts as an example.  It's not the only style or item that creators are not creating due to demand for other items. But it proves a point that creators in and of themselves aren't only creating because they like something.

Well, again, it depends on why each individual creator is creating. Some are really making a business of it, and for others it's more of a hobby and creative outlet, and for some it's a hybrid. 

And there's a huge iceberg of very small-time creators under the tip of the iceberg that is the big-name stores at the big-name events.

[Vivienne Schell]

13 minutes ago, Psyche Starling said:

Well, again, it depends on why each individual creator is creating. Some are really making a business of it, and for others it's more of a hobby and creative outlet, and for some it's a hybrid. 

And there's a huge iceberg of very small-time creators under the tip of the iceberg that is the big-name stores at the big-name events.

If you wanna know what and who sells best, try the MP, enable adult content, check for "best selling" and then you will know.

Edited Thursday at 02:39 PM by Vivienne Schell

[Vivienne Schell]

22 minutes ago, Psyche Starling said:

Well, again, it depends on why each individual creator is creating. Some are really making a business of it, and for others it's more of a hobby and creative outlet, and for some it's a hybrid. 

And there's a huge iceberg of very small-time creators under the tip of the iceberg that is the big-name stores at the big-name events.

Until 2010 LL actually released relevant data there. That was when SL was still growing, with many more users than now. As far as i can recall, there never were more than a handful of people making REAL money by Second Life, while the vast majority of sellers/people with positive L$ balance made just enough to pay their tier, or even less than that. I do not think that this has changed dramatically. Maybe the latest New World Notes survey, which isn´t truly representative, gives a glimpse on  what is up.

https://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2024/06/sl-merchant-economy-survey.html

Edited Thursday at 02:47 PM by Vivienne Schell

[JeromFranzic]

14 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Well, here's a whole new level of absurdity for you (it's even on sale so hurry while stocks last!🤣).

 

The specs seem nice. A 96 core CPU, 512GB of RAM, 24TB of storage and seven RTX4090s... I wonder how many FPS that will get you in SL? 🤔

I wouldn't buy that for SL... Open Sim, maybe... could run a few sims at once and spend less per month running them vs spending $$$ for a Premium+ account in SL. IJS. 

But honestly, many hobbyists I've talked to in Open Sim are frugal and likely don't spend as much for a PC to run a sim or two. lol 

[Blush Bravin]

39 minutes ago, Irina Forwzy said:

I used long skirts as an example.  It's not the only style or item that creators are not creating due to demand for other items. But it proves a point that creators in and of themselves aren't only creating because they like something.

Creators are hard pressed to make longer skirts because of the limitations of mesh. There's just no way to make a good looking long skirt that doesn't glitch when walking or that doesn't stretch out textures, especially prints, to the point of distortion. Can it be done? Sorta. Can it be done without the mentioned problems? Not well.

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Creators are hard pressed to make longer skirts because of the limitations of mesh. There's just no way to make a good looking long skirt that doesn't glitch when walking or that doesn't stretch out textures, especially prints, to the point of distortion. Can it be done? Sorta. Can it be done without the mentioned problems? Not well.

I would definitely purchase more mid-length skirts if they didn't have those issues.  It's rare that I find one that works properly.  In this case, it IS the expertise of the creator that is important.  If they don't have the skills to do it correctly, I won't buy it even if I'm tempted.

[Blush Bravin]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

I would definitely purchase more mid-length skirts if they didn't have those issues.  It's rare that I find one that works properly.  In this case, it IS the expertise of the creator that is important.  If they don't have the skills to do it correctly, I won't buy it even if I'm tempted.

Hope I don't get hate for saying this, but I really do miss flexi skirts with glitchpants for longer skirts. There I said it!  puts on armor.

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

42 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

If you wanna know what and who sells best, try the MP, enable adult content, check for "best selling" and then you will know.

It's always the Phat Pu**y. 😐

Edited Thursday at 03:20 PM by Ingrid Ingersoll

[Thecla]

18 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Until 2010 LL actually released relevant data there. That was when SL was still growing, with many more users than now. As far as i can recall, there never were more than a handful of people making REAL money by Second Life, while the vast majority of sellers/people with positive L$ balance made just enough to pay their tier, or even less than that. I do not think that this has changed dramatically. Maybe the latest New World Notes survey, which isn´t truly representative, gives a glimpse on  what is up.

https://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2024/06/sl-merchant-economy-survey.html

I think there are more "professional level" content creators than there were before. I had a successful business here creating role play content back in 2010 and was making on average 1mm lindens a month, so about $4k US/month and was considered a high-end creator, but that was pre-mesh with everything built in world with a few sculpies thrown in. There were quite a few of us in my segment doing very well. Certainly in the general market there were a lot of hair/skin/shoe/clothes creators who were clearly making a decent living. I ended giving it up because managing sales channels (vendors) back then was a huge PITA, and the constant drive to create new content wore me out. On the clothing/furniture front, the market was not as crowded as it is now.

Don't forget, there are quite a few creators who are creating content for multiple games/platforms. And now with GLTF those creators don't have to have as specialized a workflow for SL content creation. It may well benefit dedicated creators as well as customers, we'll see.

That data is interesting but the segments are frustrating. For example, the gross revenue segment of "10,000-50,000" is incredibly broad, and spans "living in poverty" to "getting by OK". Would like to see it finer grained.

Given the recent DRD ruckus, the staff data is also frustrating, with the smallest segment being "1-3". Certainly would be interesting to know how many are at "1" and also "2-3".

[Ayashe Ninetails]

18 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Creators are hard pressed to make longer skirts because of the limitations of mesh. There's just no way to make a good looking long skirt that doesn't glitch when walking or that doesn't stretch out textures, especially prints, to the point of distortion. Can it be done? Sorta. Can it be done without the mentioned problems? Not well.

This right here. In solids it's not overly bad, but I love my print maxi skirts and those are an entire disaster the instant you start to move. I still buy them but it's obnoxious.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

This right here. In solids it's not overly bad, but I love my print maxi skirts and those are an entire disaster the instant you start to move. I still buy them but it's obnoxious.

"Flexi" skirts are fun to chase!